Jhamin

I like 4A & 5th. I agree with those who say 5th feels very GI Joe, but I see that as a feature instead of a bug. With all the "Tactical Cosplay" we see in real life survivalists and revolutionaries something military themed with a scale motif feels right for the kinds of people Viper is often stated to recruit (washed out Military, underemployed thugs, and people who think they deserve more then they have). You need your troops to feel badass, which I think the helmets, vests, and sidearms help with.

As I read it this really comes down to the flavor of the DC world you want. Arkham Asylum seems to be moderately able to keep the various super-villians incarcerated. They parole board just keeps letting them out. On the other hand, when it's really important Joker can find a way and Batman seems to be able to get in and out whenever he needs too. So I think the individual cells are a bit tighter but are in no way "super skill" proof. On the other hand, in the MCU Ivan Vanko could build Stark Level tech and hack Hammer software like it didn't have a password and apparently had a lot of history in much worse prisons than he was currently in, but the implication was that the only reason he got out of prison was because Justin Hammer broke him out. I think it is a genre choice. Can a prison hold Lex Luthor/The Joker/the Punisher/other people without super powers but who DO have superskills? It seems like the default in most super-skill worlds is that there are ways of keeping super-skill characters in prison, but it seems to be in Genre for Batman to be able to break in whenever he needs to talk to Riddler. If anything, it seems more common for bad guys to to take over the prison than to leave it.

When Marvel has control I trust them to do well. Sony has not earned my optimism. My thinking is that we already have Into the Spiderverse and it was very nice. I'd love to see the sequel. I'm not sure I want to see a remake so soon. (I know it won't be exactly the same, but with all the Spiderman Plots out there did we need 2 movies about alternate dimension Spider People in 4 years?)

Am I the only one nervous that the success of Into the Spiderverse made Sony overly eager to do a live action version but without the ethnic kids? I trust Marvel to actually do something good (and diverse), but depending on how much control Sony has.....

I actually watched it when it was on, because I was too poor to have Cable & streaming didn't exist yet. I would never want to see it again, but a whole team of heroes each with their own sentient vehicle is the most gameable version of the franchise. Way easier to fit into a group dynamic than Michael Knight, KITT, & his DNPCs back on the truck. Literary merit tends to be built out of different things than a really good gaming session. I would never want to game out an Anton Chekhov novel, but most Chuck Norris movies are at least a decent framework for a game.

Note that if you link a power, it will *always* go off when whatever it is linked too is used, so if you link multiple things to their Str, all those things will go off with each physical attack. If you want a different thing associated with each limb you will want to buy a multipower & link the whole multipower to the character's Str. This gets a bit dicey as you officially aren't supposed to put naked advantages in a multipower and linking a whole power framework is pretty sketchy rules-wise, but both are things some GMs handwave. Personally, I'd go with the Combined attack route, even though that adds some DCV penalties. If he kicks hard *and* does a big AofE cone attack at the same time it's maybe OK that he takes some penalties. On the other hand, if you care more about the effects than the Str damage, just have power like "fire-Cone kick: 10d6 AofE Cone". When the player uses it you say its a kick, treat it like a kick, and don't worry about the Str part of it. They don't take the Combined Attack penalties, their kick is a cone, but it only does damage once.

I think the real issue with this sort of thing is that if Stark brand ARC Reactors put OPEC out of business there would be a LOT of knock-of effects and most comic book creators don't want to deal with that. They want Iron Man punching WhipLash and don't want to tell a story about how gas stations everywhere are out of business because everyone's StarkCar has infinite range now and what that is doing to small town America. Same with how Spiderman's webshooters aren't standard issue nonlethal side-arms for Police (and pay for Aunt May's healthcare), allowing them to web up low level supercriminals without calling out the Avengers every time Electro holds up a Credit Union. You do see changed societies in "what if" and alternate future type stories but never in the main continuity. If Heroes actually changed the world the comics would get further and further from the world people live in.

My first thought is: How does someone keep him from switching to his alternate form? If there really isn't any way, then he shouldn't really get a point break as he pretty much has those powers whenever he wants them. Maybe his defenses would get it as you would get one shot at him with his defenses down before he changes over. How does his life support: Doesn't age, only in alternate ID work? Does he age when in Facade form but if he stays in Morphus form he will live forever? If so, why would he ever be in Facade form? From a pure play ability standpoint I'd buy his Silver and Fire issues as a Complication rather than as a limit on defenses. As written a silver bullet would go through *all* his resistant PD like he was a normal person, which may be appropriate but also means a beat cop with a clip of silver bullets can gun down your tank throwing uber-monster. If you are concerned that it only works in one identity I might give it -5 points to reflect it only works when he is in Morphus. The same would apply to his Distinctive Features. The cold skills seem fine Otherwise, this is a pretty straightforward build. Normal guy becomes uber-monster with lots of strength and speed. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of tricks to make that cheaper.

You are of course correct. It was late, I was distracted & not thinking clearly.. However I stand by my larger point. A bunch of new blood was doing a lot of exciting work & decided to go found their own comic company instead of being cogs in the Marvel or DC machines. They succeeded for a while. Until they didn't. And as much as I hated the comics zeitgeist of the 90s with it's dark, violent heroes who all seemed to be government hit men for some reason... a lot of people loved it. Things needed to move on from where they had been and these guys helped to do that. Its easy to forget how much they as a group moved the ball.

Early on, the Image guys were mostly doing traditional comics at Marvel and broke out on their own to keep all the money they were making for others. It's hard to remember now, but back in the day what Liefield was doing on Spiderman and X-Men was so different than what everyone had been doing before that it was really exciting to 14 year olds in the early 90s. I was never a huge fan, but *so* many of by buddies were. I knew one Spider-phile who at the time *loved* Spiderman under Liefield. He loved that the super humanly agile character was much more of a contortionist & many fans felt his yards and yards of webbing everywhere made comics before Liefield got on board seem pretty staid visually. I had to admit that it made sense to give Supermodel Mary Jane Watson a non 70s haircut. They were part of the big 90s comic bubble, and I don't think it's unfair to say the "fresh look" of the art combined with improved printing made the comics of the time feel like they were something different than what came before. After the Image guys formed their own company for a while they just got *bigger*. Personally, I think it was a classic example of fooling all the people some of the time. They were kings of the world until Image started missing deadlines more than it hit them and people started to notice that so much of what was happening in the new comics was just art with no story. Turns out just making splash pages with baddass assassin heroes only works for so long. Eventually you need a plot.

Years ago there was a Webcomic called "DM or the Rings" that was made entirely of screen grabs from the LotR movies and told the story as if it were an RPG game. Boromir & the Hobbit's players abandoned the whole thing to play Star Wars after Boromir got killed. The rest of the game was the remaining players being murder hobos and putting up with Gandalf the GM PC while ignoring the occasional updates on Frodo (whose player convinced everyone to play Starwars instead of the Battletech game another Hobbit player was pitching. The remaining players enjoyed all the fighting at HelmsDeep & The White City but were a bit peeved when none of it mattered because the entire game came down to Frodo's will save at Mt. Doom. Here we are

When I was reading your post I thought of this: This actually goes on for a couple of pages like this, with each being astonished that the other is a good man. I think the thing of it is that we trust Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent to be on the side of the angels because they are written as good guys. I don't think a lot of us trust that our fellow man has as good a heart as either of these folks. I don't think I'd trust myself not to be corrupted by power. At the risk of bringing real events into a comic book discussion: Right now as I write this my urban area is Rioting. Again. It isn't as out of control as the last time, but then the authorities are more experienced this time around. I wish I knew how to stop it, but there is so much anger and bitterness all through all of it that I don't know what "stopping it" would look like, or if I should, even if I had the knowledge, resources, or power. I think it was in Kingdom Come where it was pointed out that Superman's real power isn't being faster than a speeding bullet or more powerful than a locomotive, it's knowing whats right and what to do. All. The. Time. I think we don't trust proactive supers because believing a mortal would know what to do when the world is going sideways is harder than believing a man can fly. I'm preoccupied a bit by the violence going on a few miles from me, but I've heard a lot about what "should" be done about things and most of it seems to come from a place of ignorance and fear. There are so many who believe that if one side or another were punished things would be better. One side has my sympathies more than the other but I don't believe that a good kicking would correct the problem either way. I don't believe there is a reasoned middle ground on every issue, but I also don't think that simple solutions fix most real problems. I don't think the existing system had done a great job of dispensing justice, but I *do* think it would be so much worse of there was less accountability than there is. To bring this back on topic, I don't think that super heroes would fix as much as we imagine. I think they would either end up committing atrocities in the name of "justice" or would just keep the lid on longer and let the pressure get higher before it blew. Either way, right now I'm glad there isn't someone out there proactively Punisher'ing their way through my community. We have enough problems. Which is why Proactive Super Heroes terrify me. But it would be super nice if Superman or Batman would show up.

I try to make sure my games are serious, never deviate from the plan, and are, if possible, depressing. That is why I game.

I actually did run an Urban Fantasy game using that book. It imploded fairly quickly because there was a lot of disconnect between players about what we were actually trying to do with that game. Some wanted more fights, some more investigation, and no one was clear on what the genre expectations were. If you pick a fight with a troll under a bridge, do you have a chance or not? Conan wins, Fellowship Samwise loses, RotK Samwise has a chance, how does your street magician do? It wasn't the fault of Hero's book, as the GM I was the one that needed to establish the tone. That said, I found Urban Fantasy Hero to be generic to the point of not being very helpful. It laid out broad ideas of what Urban Fantasy could look like, gave you three settings to play in and set you loose. If you picked one of those three you mostly got a magic system instead of a setting and you exhausted most of what was setup in about 3 game sessions & were then on your own. You actually needed to roll quite a bit of your own to even get it to the table, unless the PCs did nothing but buy all the package deals. (None of my PCs made magic users, so the detailed Magic Systems didn't really help me) I've been playing a lot of Hero for a long time so the mechanical comments didn't tell me what I didn't already knew about making my own magic systems. Maybe if I hadn't been playing Hero in Non-Supers before it would have helped, but there was so much "mile wide/Inch deep" info on a broad genre that I very much felt I was home-brewing everything if I wanted a real game. Champions Complete actually gives a *lot* more info on what your characters should do and what they should look like than Urban Fantasy Hero does, and imagine if all there was about the Champions Universe was what was written in Champions Complete? Better than a completely blank slate, but a long way from a game in a book. I get that you can't lose money on books and can't print books that don't sell, but if you know there is never going to be a Terran Empire setting Star Hero becomes a lot less useful. It's why I'm hopeful about the discussion going on in another forum about a "Campaign in a Book" instead of another "Genre Hero" overview book. Something for a GM to pick up & run rather than a "here is a guide to roll your own" is a pretty big gap in the Hero line IMHO.

I think that the IHA and Genocide exist in the same "niche" of Superpowered antagonists but are different enough from each other to be different. Demon might be a contender, but the totally different ways it is portrayed over time work against it IMHO. I think characters that are referred too but don't have write ups in more recent editions have slipped too far into obscurity to count as Iconic. I also tend to discount Digital Hero. I have a complete run myself, but it was a e-publication back when that was a thing only the truly hardcore paid for. I think that appearing there & nowhere else doesn't make you prominent enough to "count" as having shown up in an official publication. Its like a Star Wars movie vs Mandalorian vs the Clone Wars cartoons. All are "cannon" but your average viewer knows Luke Skywalker, maybe knows the "Sliver Bobafett Looking guy" from Disney+ and likely doesn't know who "The Bad Batch" are

I do see your point, but by that logic any alien that has horns or scaly skin should also get the 1/2 limit because there are knives and body armor. Is Str cheaper if exo-skeletons are common in the setting? It maybe isn't unfounded from a game logic point of view, but IMHO it stars to get weird when basically everything is cheaper because you can just use a gizmo anyway. If that is really how it works I start to wonder if Hero is the right system to run the game in.

King Cobra is a good add, but Professor Muerte fails the "Made it to 5th/6th edition" test. I loved him too, but he hasn't been in a book in over 20 years.

I don't think that is unreasonable & actually still leaves us with a decent chunk of characters as possibilities. Mechanon & Doctor Destroyer are both central to Champions & I can't imagine a list of iconic Champions villains that doesn't include both of them. As for others who go back at least to 3rd edition, and still exist (with a write-up!) in 6th how about: Ankylosaur Black Paladin Bulldozer Dark Seraph Eurostar Firewing Foxbat Green Dragon Grond Howler Leech Ogre Shrinker Sunburst The Ultimates (mostly) Utility Viper (as a legion of Agents in Green, none of the "Viper Supers" or the various leaders over the years qualify) I'm sure I'm missing a few who qualify, and I'm not sure *I'd* put all of these on my Iconic list, but they all have the longevity. If we include characters that started in 4th and still exist in 6th there are another couple dozen that could be added, but I'm not sure all of them were that prominent in earlier editions. (The Devil's Advocates & Joseph Otanga showed up in "Creatures of the Night" back in 1993 for example, but I don't know that many folks took notice of them until they were given a bigger spotlight in later Enemies books and I don't know that they are that big a deal now) I think you might be able to argue Defender as a Hero even though he originated in 4th. I'm not sure where I'd file the Harbinger of Justice. He is *the* Iconic character for Dark Champions and dates back to 4th edition but how much that subline "counts" has changed over the years. As organizations, PRIMUS and UNTIL are both good guy Agencies and have had long enough runs, but I'm not sure if either are as big a deal as Viper in terms of "IP".

That is where it gets complicated. Champions has been a long running RPG & which characters get love has shifted several times. I get that many of the mentioned characters were important when people got into Champions, but lots of these characters haven't seen print since the Reagan Administration. I've been playing Champions for 30 years, but I started with 4th edition. So Seeker is my jam & I never owned most of the 3rd edition stuff until long after the fact so Strike Force characters, Marksman, Gargoyle, etc don't really mean anything too me. The Circle & Mete, Blood & Dr. McQuark, etc were all out of print & hard to track down when I was getting into Champions in the 90s. The Big Blue Book and Classic Enemies were what formed my impression of Champions. If we are looking at the whole history I think we eliminate everyone who only saw print in 1st-3rd, and most everyone who didn't survive the cutover from 4th to 5th. I would argue that even if you were on the cover of a book in 1987, if you haven't seen print since then you probably aren't Iconic.

Part of the problem with all of this is that Hero basically rebooted it's universe between 4th and 5th edition. From 1-4 pretty much everything that was published was still "in continuity", but lots of fundamentals were replaced in the move to 5th edition. If you read it in a 5th edition book it probably still applies in 6th edition books. As I understand it this was partly because when the new owners of Hero bought the IP before releasing 5th they discovered that they didn't own all the old school characters, the original authors did. The rebooted 5th/6th edition universe was in part an exercise in only using stuff Hero Owned. Seeker is an in-universe comic character now. Solitaire, Jaguar, Obsidian, Crusader, Starburst don't exist and are likely not coming back. So as many warm memories as people have for some of these characters, many of them haven't been official Champions characters for over 20 years. If you want to go Iconic in a way that is useful for the future, you need to stick to 5th & 6th edition. Also, how does Champions Online fit into all this? I'm willing to bet more people have played that in the last 10 years than have played Tabletop Champions.

See, I would argue that the 2d6RKA Eye Beams cant be disarmed, taken away, or run out of ammunition & wouldn't be affected by EMP Grenades. They can be pushed and would run off END instead of a supply chain. Basically, by actually buying them as a power you don't have to deal with the "Real Weapon" limit all the free equipment always has.

Years ago my group played through "Pyramid in the Sky". At one point one of the PCs is captured by Psionic Crab-Men who are fixing to invade the earth. He is brought before their leader on the mothership. Hero in Chains, Psionic Crab man on a throne surrounded by his Crab-Man Guards, I went full on space man spiff roleplaying the situation as the Alien Leader went on a long rant about how weak and pathetic the earth was, how futile human resistance would be, how soon the earth would be their plaything, etc. The PCs were into it. Our strong jawed hero looked him square in the Eyestalk and declared: "You Overestimate us!" The entire table rolled on ground laughing. The Player took a good 30 seconds to realize he misspoke. Ever since then is has been really hard for anyone in the group to really roleplay a defiant hero without anyone else mentioning the enemy overestimates them.

My Teen Hero PCs accidentally set free Nosferatu Red & his Proletariat of the Night while they were beach coming in Oregon. They were a coven of Communist Vampires that had been imprisoned in a cave in 1937 by a Golden Age Hero. They immediately resumed their plan to return Alaska for the Soviet Union.

My all-time favorite home-brew Foxbat Adventure was when he stole a time-machine in an elaborate scheme to make the Star Wars Prequels better. He actually succeeded & The PCs just decided to let it slide. In my ongoing Champions campaign everyone acknowledges the Prequels as superior to the original movies and Lucas Studios has bought Disney. Episodes 7-9 are still fairly controversial, and Foxbat is scheming.... Black Harlequin once launched a scheme to steal all the hot toys of the Christmas Season & Foxbat was the one who turned him in to the PCs for being a creepy jerk. As I'm running a Teen Hero game I'm also seriously contemplating doing "FoxBat Beyond", where the old Foxbat retires after developing Tennis Elbow and Shin Splints & a few months later the PCs have to deal with the "new" Foxbat, a teenager who spends half his time arguing with the voice in his earpiece.

Dr Nope had a different damage value for his toxic punch on the front and back of the sheet. I might break his Powers and Knowledge into two sections. You basically have that already but without section headers it's harder to read on the back.