LoneWolf

This is something that I know about from personal experience.  I have severer to profound hearing loss. I have hearing aid that allow me to function, but that does not mean my hearing even with them is normal.
 
Hearing loss is not always all or nothing.  Hearing is classified as normal hearing, mild hearing loss, moderate hearing loss, severe hearing loss, and profound hearing loss.  For immunity to the song of the siren you probably only need moderate hearing loss.  Moderate hearing loss is when you need to have a hearing aid to understand most conversations and sounds start blending together.  With any hearing loss it gets worse the farther away you are from the sound.  This is particularly true when it comes to being able to distinguish individual sounds.  The farther away the sound the more difficult it will be to be able to distinguish what the sound is.  Even with my hearing aids I have difficulty understanding people who are too far away.
 
Someone with a moderate hearing loss would be able to hear some noises but may have difficulty identifying what they are.  They will be able to understand a spoken language but will have some difficulty.  The person speaking may have to speak loudly or even shout.  In some cases, the person with the hearing loss can read lips to figure out what is being said.  Even if you cannot fully read lips being able to see the other persons speak often helps.  Most of the time the person with a hearing loss will have trouble pronouncing words so may be difficult to understand.  This is not always the case but is pretty common.  Most audiologists who have tested me are surprised at how clear my speech is.  
 
For the natives of the island, I would buy the hearing loss as Very Frequently, Slightly for 20 points.  Their native language is sign language so it has less impact on them.  A character from outside the island it would probably be greatly impairing instead of slightly.  If an islander buys a spoken language, they should have to make perception rolls to fully understand a normal conversation as long as they can see the speaker’s lips if the speaker was within a meter or two at most.  This would also mean if the siren was right next to the islander, they may be able to be affected by the song.  This would represent the minimum level of hearing loss for an islander to be safe.  They would probably be taking a -4 on other hearing-based perceptions rolls. 
 

The Hero System already has a bad reputation as being too complex and involving too much math.  This makes it even worse and if adopted would probably end up driving the majority of the people play it away.   Most people can add up 3d6 in their head fairly quickly and easily.   Doing that with 3d30 is a lot harder and will slow down the game considerably.  If people have had a few drinks it is going to be even worse.  This is exactly the opposite way the game needs to move.  If anything it would be better to simplify the game instead of making it more complex.  The only problem with trying to make it simpler is that doing so would probably end up destroying what makes the Hero System a great game.
 
I don’t doubt your math or that your suggestion does what you say it does.  What I object to is your objective.  This would be fine in a computer game but has no place in a tabletop game.  
 

This is something that I know about from personal experience.  I have severer to profound hearing loss. I have hearing aid that allow me to function, but that does not mean my hearing even with them is normal.
 
Hearing loss is not always all or nothing.  Hearing is classified as normal hearing, mild hearing loss, moderate hearing loss, severe hearing loss, and profound hearing loss.  For immunity to the song of the siren you probably only need moderate hearing loss.  Moderate hearing loss is when you need to have a hearing aid to understand most conversations and sounds start blending together.  With any hearing loss it gets worse the farther away you are from the sound.  This is particularly true when it comes to being able to distinguish individual sounds.  The farther away the sound the more difficult it will be to be able to distinguish what the sound is.  Even with my hearing aids I have difficulty understanding people who are too far away.
 
Someone with a moderate hearing loss would be able to hear some noises but may have difficulty identifying what they are.  They will be able to understand a spoken language but will have some difficulty.  The person speaking may have to speak loudly or even shout.  In some cases, the person with the hearing loss can read lips to figure out what is being said.  Even if you cannot fully read lips being able to see the other persons speak often helps.  Most of the time the person with a hearing loss will have trouble pronouncing words so may be difficult to understand.  This is not always the case but is pretty common.  Most audiologists who have tested me are surprised at how clear my speech is.  
 
For the natives of the island, I would buy the hearing loss as Very Frequently, Slightly for 20 points.  Their native language is sign language so it has less impact on them.  A character from outside the island it would probably be greatly impairing instead of slightly.  If an islander buys a spoken language, they should have to make perception rolls to fully understand a normal conversation as long as they can see the speaker’s lips if the speaker was within a meter or two at most.  This would also mean if the siren was right next to the islander, they may be able to be affected by the song.  This would represent the minimum level of hearing loss for an islander to be safe.  They would probably be taking a -4 on other hearing-based perceptions rolls. 
 

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.  

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.  

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.  

I liked the campaign that started with a newspaper running trash stories on the PC heroes causing them to investigate each other only to find that a local crime boss was feeding the newspaper with pictures and stories that were untrue. There were several set piece battles to confront the crime boss but the need to roleplay their way out of a difficult social situation.
 
The whole thrust of the campaign was to establish themselves as heroes rather than dangerous vigilante/probable villains.
 
Doc

As duke pointed out the purpose behind all frameworks is to save points.  If you object to elemental control because they just save points, you should disallow all frameworks and the unified power limitation. The way elemental controls were in earlier editions did not have any real drawback, but that changed in latter editions.  Having all powers in the framework drained when any power in the framework is drained is a legitimate drawback.  
 
The Idea behind all frameworks is to allow the player to create certain types of characters.  While elemental controls and unified powers allow you to purchase more powers, they also make it easier for the character to purchase all the powers and abilities the special effect should have.  This can really reinforce the idea of paying for everything the character can do including rarely used power.  As a GM have qualms about being incredibly hard ass on what a character can do.  You want your precog to be able to figure out what people are going to do in combat buy the skill tactics with the unified power limitation on it or you don’t have it.  You want your electricity-based character to create magnetic fields buy change environment.   Don't complain to me you cannot afford it that is why you are saving points on the other powers. 
 

I can honestly,say that it has been,over thirty years sonce I have seen a Multipower with a drawback, period.
 
A Multipower has the _potential_ to have a drawback, but it doesnt have to.  It gets a bonus anyway.  Ultrasound on your movement and it becomes quite the bonus, with no drawbacks.  Only want one or two selectable advantages on a power?  Ultra slots give quite a discount there, too, and without drawbacks.
 
Multipowers give free points, period.  Same,as Elemental Control.  I dont care because it didn't take just a handful of characters to figure out that points do not, will not, and cannot provide balance, period.
 
Honest opinion?  Someone had a hard time figuring out how to do a proper EC, bad mouthed until he got repeated, and here we are, finding faults in EC that are by no means exclusive to it.
 
 
 
 
I am not saying it won't ever happen, but I have get to personally encounter a situation that was made worse because I couldn't Teleport and Swim at the same time.
 
And these are the multipowers that players build; these are the Multipower that GM build for their villains (though most of us do tend to ensure that our villains might be inconvenienced in one or two possible ways).
 
My Desolidifcation goes in _one_ Multipower; my Energy Blast Affects Solid goes in a different one.  My Forcefield goes in one; my running goes in a different one, etc.   We use multipowers to optimize our points expenditures, period.  Even when there is a genuine "complication"  (I cant use my flight and my Force field at the same time or some auch), the idea that we are soaking a disadvantage is entirely a fabrication:  this charavyer is exactly as we conceived him to be.  With that being the case, has he actually been deprived of somethinf he should have had when we concieved him without it?
 
All of the "you get what you pay for" is an absolute mantra at one moment, and just like "build exactly what you want," is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to make the case for Disadvantages and Limitations anf Frameworks, in spite of the fact that you are getting _exactly what you wanted_.
 
Elemental Controls are bad bevause there is no "real limitation."   Multipowers are _good_ because _it is possible_ to have a "real limitation_."  Possible?  Yes.  Mandated?  Not once; not ever.  Build your multipowers so that you tuen off powers you would never want to use in conjunction anyway.  What have you suffered or bartered away?  Nothing.  Well, your overall cost; you bartered some of that away.
 
 
 
Buy 12d6 of every power, straight out, no advantages or Limitations.
 
Buy enough Power Pool to create 12d6 of any power.  Do you have them all?  Not at the same time, but without anywhere near the investment.
 
To keep it fair, build 12d6 of every power with the same limitation your power pool has:  only one power at a time.
 
Then consider that your power pool can provide additional chracterisitics boons and powers that are not broken down into sice of effect.  The price gets better and better!  12d6 of everything man has not only paid too much for his abilities, he cant opt to trade them for a quick 30 inches of flight, either.
 
 
If after this exoeriment the cost are similar, I will not only eat your hat, I will give you thirty minutes to draw a crowd.
 
 
 
The argument against EC was flawed from day, propped up for decades by carefully ignoring the same problems in all other frameworks, and having gone away officially (for most of you), we can all feel justified for parroting the same flawed arguments because "Well, we must have been right."
 
  
 
 
 
 

The must pass through intervening space would prevent you from using it to escape places you cannot leave.  That would include bared jail cell or room with a closed door and closed windows.  If you can escape confinement that is not airtight it is more a special effect, or you can reduce the limitation to a -0.  

Personally I don’t have a problem with characters saving points for having a tight concept.   The Idea behind Unified Power is that the all the powers are actually part of a single power that can be applied in multiple ways.  It can allows a character to purchase powers they should have, but might otherwise skip because they cannot afford them.  Like anything else it can be abused, but that does not mean it has no place in the game.  As long as the powers fit the special effect it is not a problem.  The problem comes when the special effect is so vague that anything can be put in it.  Unified power with the special effect of flame is fine, but unified power with the special effect of super powers is not going to cut it.  

The way I look at it most package deals are for players who are having trouble creating their character from scratch.     Racial package deals are the main exception to this.  Those are more about defining what abilities a particular race has in the campaign.  Package deals are mainly to get the player started and to make sure they have the basic things the concept usually needs.

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  
 
The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

The way the group I game with handles stats is that any characteristic gained from a racial template increases both the stat and the maximum.  Basically, we treat them as a power rather than a characteristic.  If you use Hero Designer and put the added the racial adjustments under powers instead of characteristics, you are not charged double when you go over the normal maximum.  This allows a little more variance in characteristics.  With this each race has the same spread for characteristics, but still has some differences.   A strong Orc is going to be stronger than a strong human.  
 
Unfortunately, you cannot set the characteristics to negative in the power section of Hero Designer.  You can lower the characteristic under the characteristic tab and also manually adjust the Maximum on the Campaign Rules.  Since it is extremely rare for a character to exceed a lowered maximum, this is probably not a big deal.  Maybe if Simon sees this, he could add an option to lower characteristics in the powers section.  That would make it easier to create racial templates.  
 

In games like D&D and Pathfinder your characteristics are more important at early levels, but after you start gaining levels their impact on the game diminishes and your class abilities start to make more difference.  For example, in pathfinder if I have a first level elven wizard with and 18 STR vs a fighter with a 10 STR the elven wizard will probably defeat the fighter.  The +4 to hit and damage from STR gives the wizard the advantage.  But as the characters gain levels the wizard quickly falls behind.  By 4th level the fighter has gained enough BAB and feats  and extra HP that the odds are now with the fighter.  With Fantasy Hero characters start out stronger than other games, but don’t progress as quickly. Starting Fantasy Hero characters are closer to mid-level characters than starting characters in other systems. 
 
The other thing to consider is how the stats define the character.  In other games any character can usually use any weapon they know how no matter what their STR score is.  In Pathfinder for example I can have a 10 STR and use a bastard sword.  I may not get the bonus to hit and damage, but I can use the sword.  In Fantasy Hero weapons have STR min you need to meet or you take penalties to hit.  To use a bastard sword in Fantasy Hero requires a 13 STR if used in two hands or a 15 STR if used in one hand. 
 
If you are playing in an earlier edition the higher base damage allows you to achieve a higher max damage.  Prior to 6th edition damage for KA was capped at twice the base damage.  This is recommended in 6th edition Fantasy Hero as well. Your 10 STR character in Fantasy Hero would be limited to using a short sword and doing 2d6 damage with skill level and martial arts.  Your 15 STR character could use a bastard sword one handed and do a max damage of 3d6.  If you have a 17 STR you could use a greatsword for 2d6 damage and max damage of 4d6.   An extra die or two may not seem significant but in the Hero system it is really is.  
 
The other thing you are not factoring is that the Hero System has a lot more stats than the D20 based games.  In those you have 6 stats; in Hero you have about 20 depending on the edition.  When you look at all the stats you are going to get a lot more variance than if you are only considering a few.  DCV is going to be a lot more important to the lightly armored warrior than the one in full plate and shield.  Many heavily armored warriors favor blocking over dodging so don’t need the same level of DCV as the light warrior.  To them OCV is more important.  
 
As to the balance Fantasy Hero is better balanced than most other systems.  By design a point-based system is all about balance.  You pretty much pay for everything you can do.  

In games like D&D and Pathfinder your characteristics are more important at early levels, but after you start gaining levels their impact on the game diminishes and your class abilities start to make more difference.  For example, in pathfinder if I have a first level elven wizard with and 18 STR vs a fighter with a 10 STR the elven wizard will probably defeat the fighter.  The +4 to hit and damage from STR gives the wizard the advantage.  But as the characters gain levels the wizard quickly falls behind.  By 4th level the fighter has gained enough BAB and feats  and extra HP that the odds are now with the fighter.  With Fantasy Hero characters start out stronger than other games, but don’t progress as quickly. Starting Fantasy Hero characters are closer to mid-level characters than starting characters in other systems. 
 
The other thing to consider is how the stats define the character.  In other games any character can usually use any weapon they know how no matter what their STR score is.  In Pathfinder for example I can have a 10 STR and use a bastard sword.  I may not get the bonus to hit and damage, but I can use the sword.  In Fantasy Hero weapons have STR min you need to meet or you take penalties to hit.  To use a bastard sword in Fantasy Hero requires a 13 STR if used in two hands or a 15 STR if used in one hand. 
 
If you are playing in an earlier edition the higher base damage allows you to achieve a higher max damage.  Prior to 6th edition damage for KA was capped at twice the base damage.  This is recommended in 6th edition Fantasy Hero as well. Your 10 STR character in Fantasy Hero would be limited to using a short sword and doing 2d6 damage with skill level and martial arts.  Your 15 STR character could use a bastard sword one handed and do a max damage of 3d6.  If you have a 17 STR you could use a greatsword for 2d6 damage and max damage of 4d6.   An extra die or two may not seem significant but in the Hero system it is really is.  
 
The other thing you are not factoring is that the Hero System has a lot more stats than the D20 based games.  In those you have 6 stats; in Hero you have about 20 depending on the edition.  When you look at all the stats you are going to get a lot more variance than if you are only considering a few.  DCV is going to be a lot more important to the lightly armored warrior than the one in full plate and shield.  Many heavily armored warriors favor blocking over dodging so don’t need the same level of DCV as the light warrior.  To them OCV is more important.  
 
As to the balance Fantasy Hero is better balanced than most other systems.  By design a point-based system is all about balance.  You pretty much pay for everything you can do.  

In games like D&D and Pathfinder your characteristics are more important at early levels, but after you start gaining levels their impact on the game diminishes and your class abilities start to make more difference.  For example, in pathfinder if I have a first level elven wizard with and 18 STR vs a fighter with a 10 STR the elven wizard will probably defeat the fighter.  The +4 to hit and damage from STR gives the wizard the advantage.  But as the characters gain levels the wizard quickly falls behind.  By 4th level the fighter has gained enough BAB and feats  and extra HP that the odds are now with the fighter.  With Fantasy Hero characters start out stronger than other games, but don’t progress as quickly. Starting Fantasy Hero characters are closer to mid-level characters than starting characters in other systems. 
 
The other thing to consider is how the stats define the character.  In other games any character can usually use any weapon they know how no matter what their STR score is.  In Pathfinder for example I can have a 10 STR and use a bastard sword.  I may not get the bonus to hit and damage, but I can use the sword.  In Fantasy Hero weapons have STR min you need to meet or you take penalties to hit.  To use a bastard sword in Fantasy Hero requires a 13 STR if used in two hands or a 15 STR if used in one hand. 
 
If you are playing in an earlier edition the higher base damage allows you to achieve a higher max damage.  Prior to 6th edition damage for KA was capped at twice the base damage.  This is recommended in 6th edition Fantasy Hero as well. Your 10 STR character in Fantasy Hero would be limited to using a short sword and doing 2d6 damage with skill level and martial arts.  Your 15 STR character could use a bastard sword one handed and do a max damage of 3d6.  If you have a 17 STR you could use a greatsword for 2d6 damage and max damage of 4d6.   An extra die or two may not seem significant but in the Hero system it is really is.  
 
The other thing you are not factoring is that the Hero System has a lot more stats than the D20 based games.  In those you have 6 stats; in Hero you have about 20 depending on the edition.  When you look at all the stats you are going to get a lot more variance than if you are only considering a few.  DCV is going to be a lot more important to the lightly armored warrior than the one in full plate and shield.  Many heavily armored warriors favor blocking over dodging so don’t need the same level of DCV as the light warrior.  To them OCV is more important.  
 
As to the balance Fantasy Hero is better balanced than most other systems.  By design a point-based system is all about balance.  You pretty much pay for everything you can do.  

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  
 
The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

I don’t have FHC but from what I can see the stats in it are different than the other books.  Both the Fantasy Hero book and the rule book have a short spear listed as +0 OCV doing 1d6+1 damage  with a normal stun multiple and a STR minimum of 10.  A long spear has a -1 OCV does 2d6 damage with a normal stun multiple and a 13 STR min.  The long spear is also listed as a 2H weapon.     The STR min for the long spear is 14 in the Fantasy Hero book.   The long spear is also listed as a EL weapon in the rules book, but not in Fantasy Hero.  That gives the one from the rule book a 3m reach instead of 2.  I can see a 10+ foot spear having a -1 OCV. 
 
The problem seems that the stats for the same thing are different depending on the source. 

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  
 
The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  
 
The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

There are lots of circus stereotypes that could make decent characters.  The strongman who actually has low end superhuman strength, the hypnotist with some mental powers, the stage magician, and acrobat immediately come to mind.
 
Early American folk hero would also be a good fit for this type of campaign.  Things like Davy Crockett, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill and John Henry could serve as inspiration.  
 

I never had a problem with players trying to get a bunch of low-cost powers.  When you do that you don’t save as much.  In general a bunch of low cost powers are not as effective as a few high-cost powers.  Since every power has to be twice the active cost of the EC a low point EC does not save you many points.  Unless your GM is allowing multiple EC on the same character it is better to have a higher cost EC and buy the low cost powers outside the EC. 
 
For example, if you put the 3 powers you listed into a 5-point EC instead of a 25 Your EC would cost 3 point and your 3 50-point powers would cost 35 point instead of 17.  That means you are paying an extra 40 points for the same powers.  You could then put in a bunch of 10-point powers for 3 points each, but  all that does is increase the final cost of the character.  You would need to have 13 10-point powers to make equal out and even then, you would be spending an extra 39 points.  At that point each point you spend is getting you 1.7 points.  With the 25-point EC each point is getting you 2.2 points.  Throw in a few more 50-point powers and the saving are even higher.  If your 25-point EC has 6 powers each point gets you 2.5 points.  
 
One of the reasons that special powers are not allowed in an EC is that for the most part they are usually dirt cheap.  If a GM is too permissive with what they allow in it can allow a character to get all of the special defenses dirt cheap.  This is the easiest way to abuse an EC and why a good GM will be careful what they allow in it.   

The flight is fine as it normally costs END.  Not sure what Umberkeneseis is, if it is telekinesis it should be fine.  If I remember correctly Regeneration was a special power in 4th edition and does not cost END so cannot normally be put in an EC.  Check with you GM on that, if the GM is ok with it you can put it in.    
 
Each of the slots also get the limitation as well or you cannot put it on the EC.   So the cost of the EC and all slots are 17.   If the regeneration and flight works in bright light, you cannot put that limitation on the EC and the cost would be 25 for the EC and slots without the limitation.  
 

I think you are confusing a VPP for an elemental control.  With an elemental control there is no pool.  You pay a set amount for the EC and all powers in the EC subtract that cost from the active cost before applying any limitations.  All powers in the EC have to be at least twice the cost of the EC.
 
For example if you have a 25 point EC all power in the EC have to be at least 50 active points.  You subtract 25 (the cost of the EC) from all powers in the EC and then apply limitations.  If every slot in the EC has a limitation you can apply that limitation to the cost of the EC.  So if all his powers have the -1/2 limitation not working in bright light that can be applied to the cost EC as well as the powers.  In the above case the EC would cost 17 but still deduct 25 points from it.  Not all powers can be put in an EC.  In 4th edition you cannot put special powers in an EC.  I think all powers also have to cost END to be put in an EC, but that might be for 5th edition.