Toxxus

I've always liked 20 as the cap for the vast majority with 21-25 being the range of athletes and intellectuals who border on superhuman in heroic campaigns.
 
Non-supers getting up to 30 feels more like a Champions setting.

Closest I ever got to something like this was a free Dinner for two at Ruth Chris steakhouse after our waiter wandered off and forgot we existed.
 
The whole meal was free and they encouraged us to get a couple drinks and a dessert to make up for their failure.  Overall, pretty sweet deal.
 
 

Captain America has massive, mega-scale powers that are all bought with fully invisible power effects.
 
He didn't face off the armies of Thanos alone because he was suicidal.  He was taking an iconic poster-worthy pose to (gestures, concentration, extra time: full phase) to cast an all-stat / all-powers aid buff on the incoming armies.
 
Think D&D style paladin aura at a larger scale.  One might even argue that his Mind Control:  Only to make people do the right thing is what made Tony Stark take himself out to save the world.
 
DM made him do that since his back-story was normal human enhanced to maximum possible potential by the super soldier serum.
 
Ok, I'm not even remotely serious, but I do like hero builds using effects along those lines. 

One of my player's is a big League of Legends fan so I've been letting him find/buy a couple of items from the game for his Udyr character:
1-  Hunter's Machete:  Adds 1pt HKA - NND Fire damage to all of your attacks - Str Doesn't add to damage - Defense is not being a monster or having a shield effect.
2-  Iceborn Guantlet:  8 rPD/rED for area 6/7 on right arm only, Adds 1pt NND Cold damage to melee attacks only - Triggers only 1x per turn - Creates single hex change environment that causes Dex roll at -3 or prone (ice slick).
 
His primary adversary from his backstory is Lissandra the Ice Queen (ice witch - cold based powers).  He's already been warned in prophetic manner that he will be betrayed in the most unsuspected manner.  He knows that the creation of the Iceborn Guantlet required his only piece of True Ice, but he seems to have forgotten that Lissandra has the power to control True Ice.  Their encounter is going to start roughly as he finds himself being affected by his own, un-removable gauntlet.
 
Our party witcher has been able to pay an exorbitant amount of money to get a matched sword set (1 silver / 1 steel) that add +2 OCV (instead of +1 like most greatswords) and do an additional 1d6 hka on critical hits.
 
The party fire witch has a Staff of Storms that allows her to change the special effect of her spells (all currently fire based) into lightning.

Don't forget China's contributions:
 
 
Wind and Fire Wheels: "It's more important that I look impressive doing katas than actually be combat effective."
 

 
Monk's Spade: "Make this shovel more weaponlike.  More.  No, more.  Look, what don't you understand?"
 

 
Tiger Hook Swords.  "Okay what I want is two swords, only with bladed pommels, and blades on the handguards, and blades on the blades, and hooks on the blades such that I can hook one blade on the other blade and swing all the blades around on the battlefield like a shrieking psycho."
 

Can your players also  not relate to a character who does 14d6 in a game where 12d6 is the norm, or a 15- skill instead of a 13- skill?
 
Scaling is a huge "if".  Some will suggest your "highly trained normal" character should have no stats above 20, because Normals scale from 1 to 20.  Others will cap it at 30, as that is the upper limit of human potential, according to 5e/6e.  Still others will point to Rainbow Archer's DEX of (was it 35?  38?) - she's just a highly trained normal.
 
Should COM be a complementary roll, or an automatic bonus?  Making COM a modifier to interaction where it could be relevant makes lots of sense - it was, in fact, what lead Steve Long to conclude that COM is NOT a characteristic, because all it can be asserted to do is modify rolls based on a different characteristic, PRE.  If it is only going to be used as limited PRE, he reasoned, let us make it limited PRE. 
 
That logic sold me.  Clearly it does not sell everyone, but que sera.

Yah the using COM as a complimentary roll for (some, appearance-based) social skills seems pretty solid to me.
 
Now COM no longer "does nothing".  (<- the horror!!!!)
 
I'm not going to go full Palindromedary on it but I feel like if you bought  a skill or skill levels for a skill that can only be used in a complimentary fashion, based on appearance, you'd probably end up paying about, oh, I don't know, maybe 1/2pt per point of COM or something.
 
Also: I think these threads are effin' hilarious. And not in an, "I'm laughing with you", way either. ;D
 
The point of Hero is to run the game you want with the mechanics you want.
Turn COM on, turn it off, make it free, make it a complimentary roll for appearance influenced social interactions, use SA, use SA *and* COM, make a lil conversion that tells you how much equivalent COM an SA talent is worth, make a lil conversion that tell you how hot\attractive\etc a person with SA is on a per-level basis.
Whatever supports the game you want to play. It's is TRIVIAL to add COM to 6th and it is UTTERLY TRIVIAL to remove it from 5th.
 
But attempting to convince folks that some aspect of the system MUST be some way seems antithetical to the whole Hero deal.
And not useful for convincing folks of things they already know they like\don't like.
 
The main thing is these threads seem utterly disconnected from the real thing: Playing the game.
 
Question: Has anyone in this thread ever had any issues with COM as a stat (when it was a stat)?
Did the COM 40 PC try to convince the GM that they should be able to "Presence Attack" using COM? And did that just destroy the game and the story?
Did the COM 30 NPC utterly derail a game because PCs just had to have him\her? And that just utterly derail the entire game?
 
 
Because it seems like all the discussion is around the basis of COM as a game or design element. Which is a stupid discussion for Hero.
 
Does the thing work? "Work" meaning support your game style. "Work" meaning is this fun? "Work" meaning..."yah, that works for me".
 
Well then use it.
 
Does it not work for you\your game\your players? Does it distract and cause arguments? Does it just seem stupid?
 
Well then...stop using it.
 
ANYway....
 
Case for COM: It's cheap, it's easy, players like their characters to look good, it's intuitive outside of edge cases, it's doesn't have a big effect on the game.
Case against COM: It doesn't do much but sit there and look good (or bad) as written. SA can actually produce game effects. RAW doesn't have COM producing effects (good thing we're all playing Hero so we cannot under any circumstances adjust the rules to taste!).
 
Now there's really no conflict there which seems to be recurrent in the thread.
You can totes have Striking Appearance and COM without any issues whatsoever.
They can do different things even! You can use one for "just" pretty folks and another for Really, Really, Really, Ridiculously Good-looking male models (Question: what level of SA\Presence Attack do you need to stop a throwing star?).
 
But, honestly, decide what you like (or what works best for the actual game you are actually playing\running), and go with that, and for threads like these just express you opinion of how the stat\rule\thingie is fun and useful to you or how you feel it detracts from the fun and causes issues.
The trying to "convince" others thing is just sillypants\clownshoes!
 
"Sorry, bro, but I just use body models in my games so you have to take COM out of your 6th edition game even though you and your party like the stat."
"Sorry, dawg, but I just can't play a game if I can't quantify my characters appearance, I'm just not going to be able to play 6th edition so we MUST switch back to 5th because COM isn't a stat in 6th and can't ever be."
 
There is no underlying reality to the Hero rules.
COM doesn't need to reflect the real world any more than...anything else in the rules.
 
Your Captain America can just look like Chris Evans and not have SA or high COM (or not even have COM at all!).
Mine can have both SA and a high COM.
 
OP's case for COM seems to be: Sometimes it can be useful in some games in ways that Striking Appearance  doesn't emulate well. And sometimes it can make for some fun.
 
That's a pretty cogent case to me.
But, you know, I guess since beauty can be subjective that he's objectively wrong and because you can emulate some facets of COM with SA then objectively COM can't ever be used for anything. Ever. Even if you wanted to make it useful for occasional complimentary appearance-based social interactions you couldn't do that.
It's not in the 6th edition rules you see. So it's impossible to have both. Or have neither. Or switch 'em around to do what you actually want (whatever that is).
 
So we gotta get to the objective bottom of this you guys. We really can't keep playing Hero when the rules are so up in the air like this. 
What do you MEAN you don't use hit locations!??!??! But muh realism!!!!
What do you MEAN "hit locations" aren't realistic!!??!?!? But muh crunch!!!!
 
And so on.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

As a point for consideration, several RPG genres may allow for settings with non-human characters, potentially both NPC and PC. In some settings those may be very common. Their "hardwiring" could be quite different from human.

There's that and also the scientific theory that beauty is not that subjective.
 
We are hardwired for it from birth.
 https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6355-babies-prefer-to-gaze-upon-beautiful-faces/
 
Let's say that your friend says he's dating a total 10.  She may not be a 10 based on your preferences, but she's not going to be a 2 either.  You know she's attractive plus/minus a couple notches based on preference.
 
I'm fine with Striking Appearance as a talent, but we used COM back in the day and I found it gave a more granular and more relatable standard.
If all primary stats are scaled from 1 to 20 with a 10 being normal then you have a pretty good idea of what a COM of 12 or 18 or 24 means.
 
If I say they have Striking Presence +2d6 to my players it means nothing to them.  It's unrelatable until I tack on some extra dice to a presence attack.
 
Additionally, it'd probably be easier to use COM as a complimentary roll to support a Seduction attempt since players will intuitively understand that someone who is very physically attractive will have an advantage in attempting to seduce someone.
 
 

There's that and also the scientific theory that beauty is not that subjective.
 
We are hardwired for it from birth.
 https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6355-babies-prefer-to-gaze-upon-beautiful-faces/
 
Let's say that your friend says he's dating a total 10.  She may not be a 10 based on your preferences, but she's not going to be a 2 either.  You know she's attractive plus/minus a couple notches based on preference.
 
I'm fine with Striking Appearance as a talent, but we used COM back in the day and I found it gave a more granular and more relatable standard.
If all primary stats are scaled from 1 to 20 with a 10 being normal then you have a pretty good idea of what a COM of 12 or 18 or 24 means.
 
If I say they have Striking Presence +2d6 to my players it means nothing to them.  It's unrelatable until I tack on some extra dice to a presence attack.
 
Additionally, it'd probably be easier to use COM as a complimentary roll to support a Seduction attempt since players will intuitively understand that someone who is very physically attractive will have an advantage in attempting to seduce someone.
 
 

One of my player's is a big League of Legends fan so I've been letting him find/buy a couple of items from the game for his Udyr character:
1-  Hunter's Machete:  Adds 1pt HKA - NND Fire damage to all of your attacks - Str Doesn't add to damage - Defense is not being a monster or having a shield effect.
2-  Iceborn Guantlet:  8 rPD/rED for area 6/7 on right arm only, Adds 1pt NND Cold damage to melee attacks only - Triggers only 1x per turn - Creates single hex change environment that causes Dex roll at -3 or prone (ice slick).
 
His primary adversary from his backstory is Lissandra the Ice Queen (ice witch - cold based powers).  He's already been warned in prophetic manner that he will be betrayed in the most unsuspected manner.  He knows that the creation of the Iceborn Guantlet required his only piece of True Ice, but he seems to have forgotten that Lissandra has the power to control True Ice.  Their encounter is going to start roughly as he finds himself being affected by his own, un-removable gauntlet.
 
Our party witcher has been able to pay an exorbitant amount of money to get a matched sword set (1 silver / 1 steel) that add +2 OCV (instead of +1 like most greatswords) and do an additional 1d6 hka on critical hits.
 
The party fire witch has a Staff of Storms that allows her to change the special effect of her spells (all currently fire based) into lightning.

It's a game and we use abstractions in it.  I am utterly mystified by those of you who think that Comeliness must be subjective, but Presence is something that's the same to all of us.
 
When we get right down to it, I don't know how "striking" I'd find your person with Striking Appearance.

Captain America has massive, mega-scale powers that are all bought with fully invisible power effects.
 
He didn't face off the armies of Thanos alone because he was suicidal.  He was taking an iconic poster-worthy pose to (gestures, concentration, extra time: full phase) to cast an all-stat / all-powers aid buff on the incoming armies.
 
Think D&D style paladin aura at a larger scale.  One might even argue that his Mind Control:  Only to make people do the right thing is what made Tony Stark take himself out to save the world.
 
DM made him do that since his back-story was normal human enhanced to maximum possible potential by the super soldier serum.
 
Ok, I'm not even remotely serious, but I do like hero builds using effects along those lines. 

This is the part in the movie where I usually annoy my wife.  If you got hit that f*cking hard you'd die before you even reached the wall.
 
If it's Thor and Hulk - fine.  If it's funny guy in the Mummy he should burst open like a ripe melon and expire.

I liked the idea that he finally accepted that he had given enough and could enjoy his own life for a change.

Yeah I view 30 as outside unassisted human capability, and 25 the peak of humanity, just based on STR.

I've always liked 20 as the cap for the vast majority with 21-25 being the range of athletes and intellectuals who border on superhuman in heroic campaigns.
 
Non-supers getting up to 30 feels more like a Champions setting.

I know what they meant, but that headline makes it sound like Alabama is forcing a birth rate of zero by making abortion mandatory.
 
Words matter!

I once ran a Cap clone who was a legacy character from generations. He had presence defense - only usable by others. as long as he was up and able to fight, others felt confident.

Captain America has massive, mega-scale powers that are all bought with fully invisible power effects.
 
He didn't face off the armies of Thanos alone because he was suicidal.  He was taking an iconic poster-worthy pose to (gestures, concentration, extra time: full phase) to cast an all-stat / all-powers aid buff on the incoming armies.
 
Think D&D style paladin aura at a larger scale.  One might even argue that his Mind Control:  Only to make people do the right thing is what made Tony Stark take himself out to save the world.
 
DM made him do that since his back-story was normal human enhanced to maximum possible potential by the super soldier serum.
 
Ok, I'm not even remotely serious, but I do like hero builds using effects along those lines. 

I know what they meant, but that headline makes it sound like Alabama is forcing a birth rate of zero by making abortion mandatory.
 
Words matter!

Let's eat grandma
Let's eat, grandma

I know what they meant, but that headline makes it sound like Alabama is forcing a birth rate of zero by making abortion mandatory.
 
Words matter!

Lots of good points on the poison discussion and what the rules really mean.  What I think it comes down to is how the GM wants to handle it.  If Life Support is going to provide protection, then the GM needs to require that all poisons are NND or have a limitation that lets LS affect them.  If you think LS is too cheap to allow immunity to poison, or you want something more granular than an all-or-nothing effect (which has always been one of my gripes with D&D saving throws), then poisons need to be built as AVLD of some stripe or characters can buy Damage Negation or Reduction only vs. Poison (and maybe requiring a CON roll).
 
The HERO system is very flexible, so you can do anything you like, the key is that you need to define the world and framework in which you want to play to keep things consistent and reasonable.

The OMCV at 3 is neither an advantage nor is it a limitation if you don't have any mental powers because I don't envision any scenario where it would come into play.  Sure I could let a person buy it down to 0 then create a scenario (a handy/needed/convenient Focus of opportunity?) where it would be limiting but frankly, I don't see any reason or have any inclination to bother.  Even if I did, it certainly wouldn't come up more than once in a campaign and I honestly don't see that happening.  I have often heard/seen/read the reasoning that a complication/disadvantage/limitation/etc. is the player's way of telling the gm that they want to see something in play and that is all well and good,  but as gm, I get to decide whether that is something that I want to put into play.  If I don't see it coming in to play, I would veto said complication/disadvantage/limitation just as I would tell a player not to select/pay for a benefit/advantage that would not come into play.  That position is consistent.
 
As for the player being able to "set" OMCV to what they would like if they have no mental powers, that is your opinion and I do not share it.  If they see the "3" next to the Characteristic as "completely irrelevant window dressing" then so be it.  They can stand and gawk at it or ignore and walk by it like any other window dressing.  If the "3" is that painful to look at then I envy the player because life has been far too easy for him/her in general.  Lastly, since I don't allow it to be "set" at whatever the player wants, my position is in no way inconsistent.  For me it is simple, if something is not limiting in the campaign, you get no points for it...period and consistent.