Abandoning SPD as a CHA

[Rebar]

A GM friend runs his combat turns a little differently. Essentially, he ignores SPD, or at least SPD is derived directly from DEX. Terefore the turn chart too goes out the window.

 

So, what you do is start with the highest DEX and just work your way down.

Any ... er ... multiple of your DEX you go again.

.

Say you have 3 characters: DEX 30, DEX 19 and DEX 10.

 

DEX 30 character goes first.

Then you count down.

At DEX 20, the DEX 30 character goes again.

You keep counting.

At 19, DEX 19 character goes.

When you get to 10, DEX 30 goes again, followed by DEX 10.

Count to 9 and DEX 19 goes.

Finally, at 1, everybody goes.

 

So, in that turn:

DEX 30 has gone 4 times,

DEX 19 has gone 3 times, and

DEX 10 has gone twice.

 

The key here is that no one has sat around for, like, 6 segments in which they cannot do anything but eat chips and knit.

 

Naturally, it messes with the relative values of the characteristics, but it's less confining than the 12 segment turn.

 

 

[Balabanto]

The problem is that this leads to what I like to refer to as the Shadowrun problem.

 

Any system like this is automatically going to run into this wall. SPD is still better.

 

Otherwise, you get weird values like 31, 21, 11, and 1, which is WAY more effective than 30,20,10, back to the top.

[Scott Baker]

This also presupposes that because you are dextrous (or agile/dextrous) you act more often.

 

I honestly don't see the advantage, as long as the GM manages: 1) player expectations, 2) SPD guidelines. You mentioned people sitting around for 6 segments. The only way that would happen is for a SPD 2 character to be running with a SPD 12 (and SPD 11 for half the turn) character. If these are both PCs, I have to wonder why they have such disparate speeds. Your example was the ultimate extreme, but the same holds true for SPD values nearly as far apart. I personally set some guidelines for games I run so that no one player is either hogging all the action, or not acting at all (relatively speaking).

 

As always, Hero System is a toolkit, and everyone can modify it to suit their style.

[Rebar]

The problem is that this leads to what I like to refer to as the Shadowrun problem.

 

Any system like this is automatically going to run into this wall. SPD is still better.

 

What problem? You didn't describe it.

 

 

Otherwise, you get weird values like 31, 21, 11, and 1, which is WAY more effective than 30,20,10, back to the top.

As opposed to 23, 18 and 13? Yeah, I see how that's different.

[Rebar]

This also presupposes that because you are dextrous (or agile/dextrous) you act more often.

How often is this not the case?

 

 

I honestly don't see the advantage,

Neither do I. That's why I'm asking around. He swears by it. Frankly, not using the rather rigid turn chart is rather freeing.

 

 

segments. The only way that would happen is for a SPD 2 character to be running with a SPD 12 (and SPD 11 for half the turn) character. If these are both PCs, I have to wonder why they have such disparate speeds. Your example was the ultimate extreme, but the same holds true for SPD values nearly as far apart.

 

Two of the most enduring running gags in our 30 years of playing are:

1. The SPD 4 "unaltered human" PC waking up and bawling "Is it phase 8 yet??"

2. Phase 7 freezies all around.

[Lord Liaden]

 

How often is this not the case?

 

 

I would say that Spider-Man is a lot more dextrous and agile than Flash, but that Flash is a lot faster than Spider-Man.

 

As a GM I personally like the way the Speed Chart structures actions -- makes the flow of combat easier to follow. However, some groups I've been in prefer a more random order of actions. Rather than disregarding SPD altogether, we had success randomizing the order of actions using a d12.

[Scott Baker]

 

How often is this not the case?

 

I would say more so in 6E since there are no longer figured characteristics. Unfortunately, most players I've encountered over the years (including myself in bygone days) always look at increasing SPD, for reasons of "not sitting around" as you had mentioned. That's where the expectation setting and guidelines come in. Then I can use character concept to help define the character build. In this context (and for 5E), that has traditionally led to not spending as much on SPD because that's not what they really intended...OK, except for the min-maxers.

 

As far as the turn chart being rigid, I suppose that is technically true, but then so is the alternate system your friend uses. It's just a different algorithm. Being a simulation, there has to be some sort of rules to moderate player actions (even if it's a free-form system where the GM just manages time for dramatic effect, etc.). If it's really a concern about keeping players engaged, and you don't have other ways to manage that during combat, then I think everyone should just act the same number of times. Higher DEX goes first. Everyone gets maximum participation. That has its own limitations, but, so do the alternatives.

[Lord Liaden]

A GM friend runs his combat turns a little differently. Essentially, he ignores SPD, or at least SPD is derived directly from DEX. Terefore the turn chart too goes out the window.

 

So, what you do is start with the highest DEX and just work your way down.

Any ... er ... multiple of your DEX you go again.

.

Say you have 3 characters: DEX 30, DEX 19 and DEX 10.

 

DEX 30 character goes first.

Then you count down.

At DEX 20, the DEX 30 character goes again.

You keep counting.

At 19, DEX 19 character goes.

When you get to 10, DEX 30 goes again, followed by DEX 10.

Count to 9 and DEX 19 goes.

Finally, at 1, everybody goes.

 

So, in that turn:

DEX 30 has gone 4 times,

DEX 19 has gone 3 times, and

DEX 10 has gone twice.

 

The key here is that no one has sat around for, like, 6 segments in which they cannot do anything but eat chips and knit.

 

Naturally, it messes with the relative values of the characteristics, but it's less confining than the 12 segment turn.

 

Waitaminnit, by this system the DEX 30 character has taken two actions before anybody else has taken even one. How are they not "waiting around" for their chance to act? AFAICT this approach just eliminates the appearance of having segments on which a character doesn't get to act, while in practical terms retaining much the same periods of inaction.

[Greywind]

It reminds me a lot of the V&V initiative system.

[Hugh Neilson]

A GM friend runs his combat turns a little differently. Essentially, he ignores SPD, or at least SPD is derived directly from DEX. Terefore the turn chart too goes out the window.

 

So, what you do is start with the highest DEX and just work your way down.

Any ... er ... multiple of your DEX you go again.

.

Say you have 3 characters: DEX 30, DEX 19 and DEX 10.

 

DEX 30 character goes first.

Then you count down.

At DEX 20, the DEX 30 character goes again.

You keep counting.

At 19, DEX 19 character goes.

When you get to 10, DEX 30 goes again, followed by DEX 10.

Count to 9 and DEX 19 goes.

Finally, at 1, everybody goes.

 

So, in that turn:

DEX 30 has gone 4 times,

DEX 19 has gone 3 times, and

DEX 10 has gone twice.

 

The key here is that no one has sat around for, like, 6 segments in which they cannot do anything but eat chips and knit.

 

Naturally, it messes with the relative values of the characteristics, but it's less confining than the 12 segment turn.

 

It reminds me a lot of the V&V initiative system.

It is the V&V system, except IIRC V&V used increments of 15.

 

Waitaminnit, by this system the DEX 30 character has taken two actions before anybody else has taken even one. How are they not "waiting around" for their chance to act? AFAICT this approach just eliminates the appearance of having segments on which a character doesn't get to act, while in practical terms retaining much the same periods of inaction.

 

My thoughts exactly. DEX 30 (A) gets 4 actions, so call him SPD 8 as the alternative. DEX 19 (3) gets 3, so call him 6 SPD, and DEX 10 © gets a 4 SPD. That keeps their ratio of actions consistent.

 

With standard SPD, over a turn, we would get an action sequence of A, B, A, C, B, A, A, B, C, A, B, A, C, B, A, A, B, C [this assumes we do not start on segment 12]

 

With this modified approach, over 2 turns (same number of actions), we get A, A, B, A, C, B, A, B, C, A, A, B, A, C, B, A, B, C

 

In either system, C gets to watch four other actions between his own twice, and three other actions twice. How is this new approach superior to using SPD?

[Scott Baker]

How is this new approach superior to using SPD?

 

I think that's the question (as noted in reply #5 - http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88924-abandoning-spd-as-a-cha/?do=findComment&comment=2353016). And thus the discussion.

[LouGoncey]

just make SPD dormant -- you cannot remove or add CPs to it.  Then it is simply 2 6 second turns done in order of DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

A variant on Gonster's approach gives the PC's SPD 4, combat-trained mooks SPD 3 and others SPD 2, with the occasional very powerful adversary having SPD higher than 4.

[dmjalund]

however you could effectively increase your SPD by 1 by buying 10 points of Lightning Reflexes

[Old Man]

At low levels typical of (for example) Fantasy Hero games, I've seriously toyed with the idea of dispensing with SPD altogether, or at least fixing all PCs at SPD 3.  It's a huge advantage to be SPD 4 when the rest of the group is SPD 3--compared to the same point value of combat levels or stats, it's almost a no brainer to put those ten points into SPD and get a free phase to stop dodging and throw a haymaker.

[Balabanto]

So buy martial arts and martial dodge. I was in one of those games once and I had a 3 SPD and two other people had 4s. I martial dodged and it would buy me phases and phases of not being hit. You have to figure out what the advantages of having a lower SPD are. The weakness in the system actually occurs when everyone has the SAME SPD, rather than people who act on different phases.

 

The mistake people make in Champions is that it's always best to attack every turn. This is a fool's paradise. You want to hold a lot of actions, especially if your DEX is high, and think strategically. This is why the game was originally developed for battlemap use. That guy who has SPD 6 can still be crushed by a low DEX character with SPD 4. If the martial artist just unloads, the brick just picks up a tractor trailer and drops it on him. He doesn't even need to do damage. He only needs to hit DCV 3, and that martial artist probably can't lift the tractor trailer.

 

A lot of people focus on damage dealing and attacking too much, and not thinking about the system as a whole during combat. That's why SPD isn't broken.

[Lucius]

 

Neither do I. That's why I'm asking around. He swears by it. Frankly, not using the rather rigid turn chart is rather freeing.

 

 

I don't see this as any less rigid. I do see it as a good reason to buy DEX ending in 1, and lots of Lightning Reflexes

 

How does this work with things like, oh, Continuing Charges and Constant Powers and other things that go phase to phase?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary buys Lightning Reflexes on a Trigger

[Christopher]

So the number of actions per Turn you have is

First Digit of DEX or DEX/10 (rounded down) + 1?

Does reminds me of the way current Warhammer RPG's denote Characteristics where the first value is used to figure out some stuff.

 

Basically that is just making SPD a characteristic figured from DEX (something hero abandonned in 6E, 5E still had SPD as figured Characteristic).

It also just ignores the phases were nobody has an action. Wich is exactly what the current SPD system does anyway. If no character or effect has an Action that Segment, it is usually ignored.

 

In addition to the question about palyer idependant effects (continous), how exactly does delayed phase actions work (Haymaker, TImie Limit Limitation)? Normally they go on your DEX the next Segment.

 

I agree that 6 segments is a unlikely time amount. For this one needs SPD 2 and everyone else needs to have phases in the six segments. This problem can be easily sovled by not having divergign SPD values.

Maybe you tried to solve a real problem with the wrong approach? Was the actuall propblem that some people got stunned/had to abort to defense to often and thus they had two wait two actions? Was it too diverging SPD? Was a SPD of 4 and decent CV too expensive a "Character Tax"*?

 

*This means the effect that you effectively have to buy something and everyone has to buy it, so you might just as well started with this value and have less points or might be better of to get that for free.

If you play a 250/75 game and everyone has to pay 25 Points on a Perk/Skill set, you might as well have said "225/75 with these 25 for free".

[Old Man]

So buy martial arts and martial dodge. I was in one of those games once and I had a 3 SPD and two other people had 4s. I martial dodged and it would buy me phases and phases of not being hit. You have to figure out what the advantages of having a lower SPD are. The weakness in the system actually occurs when everyone has the SAME SPD, rather than people who act on different phases.

I note that to make up for a ten-point disadvantage in SPD here, you propose buying 10+ points of martial maneuvers.

 

The mistake people make in Champions is that it's always best to attack every turn. This is a fool's paradise. You want to hold a lot of actions, especially if your DEX is high, and think strategically. This is why the game was originally developed for battlemap use. That guy who has SPD 6 can still be crushed by a low DEX character with SPD 4. If the martial artist just unloads, the brick just picks up a tractor trailer and drops it on him. He doesn't even need to do damage. He only needs to hit DCV 3, and that martial artist probably can't lift the tractor trailer.

Converting STR to an AOE attack has had its own share of discussions elsewhere, but it's less likely in a fantasy setting. Of course you want to act strategically in Hero combat, but it's not as though the character with the higher SPD can't act strategically too.

 

A lot of people focus on damage dealing and attacking too much, and not thinking about the system as a whole during combat. That's why SPD isn't broken.

I don't think anyone is saying SPD is broken. What I'm saying is that in heroic games you might not miss it if you chose to ignore it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I agree with balabato. people should use their characters phases more strategically. this game has so many tactical options it can be mind boggling. make us of them.

 

Personally, it was the speed chart (and martial arts) that made me choose hero as my primary system. i never want to use hero without it. its a big part of what makes hero what it is.

[Old Man]

I like the speed chart too, for Champions.  But I've also played at least as much Fantasy Hero, and it just doesn't add that much to the game when 98% of the people and creatures in it are SPD 3, and once every few sessions you run into someone who's SPD 4.  Opinions vary, of course. 

 

Another workaround I've toyed with is, for heroic games, halving the cost of SPD and putting everyone back in the SPD 5-9 range.  That solves a big granularity problem and makes SPD a more interesting stat.  But there are implications for END and REC that I never bothered to work out.

[NuSoardGraphite]

There are quite a few Speed 2 characters and beings in my game, as well as some Speed 5 and Speed 6 beings (Elder Dragons are Speed 6, at least.  Shar Bu, one of the Lord Shards is Speed 8!)

[JasonPacker]

You're very close to modern (5th edition) Shadowrun with this concept. They, too, use initiative that allows one action every 10 units, but a normal joe might have a 6+1d6 for his Initiative, while an amped up street samurai might be at 10+3d6 or higher. 

 

I could get behind this as an alternative to the SPD chart if it had that element of uncertainty, but as a flat value I'm not sure I see any added value.

[Old Man]

There are quite a few Speed 2 characters and beings in my game, as well as some Speed 5 and Speed 6 beings (Elder Dragons are Speed 6, at least.  Shar Bu, one of the Lord Shards is Speed 8!)

 

That's exactly what I mean--the speed chart is only really useful if you have a reasonably wide range of SPD in the campaign. 

[NuSoardGraphite]

That's exactly what I mean--the speed chart is only really useful if you have a reasonably wide range of SPD in the campaign. 

Exactly.  So why aren't these speed ranges represented in people's games?

 

Are they placing everyone the characters encounter, every ruffian, cut-throat, Assassin, Warg, Hydra, Beholder, Elder-Wyrm, Demon of the Void, Undead Deathknight and Deity of death between Speeds 3 and 4?

 

If so, why is this happening?  I can understand if the GM doesn't like the speed chart.  But if a GM does like it, why wouldn't he or she vary the speeds of the antagonists the PC's are facing in order to make use of it?  Doesn't make any damned sense to me.