Building a Heat Sink

[Christopher R Taylor]

It seems to me there are a few limited ways you can build abilities and devices to limit them

 

1) Charges or limited uses, when they run out, you can't use them any more (bullets, arrows)

2) An energy source that you use up like a battery

3) A resource you build up by taking action or in combat, allowing you to then burn the built up resource with maneuvers

4) Limits on how often an ability can be used (x times per turn, per minute, etc)

5) Heat or other meter that builds up so abilities can't be used without a cooldown - each ability used adds x to the meter and when it reaches y point, they can't be used.  The x fades at a certain rate when not used.

 

Its this last one that I am puzzled how to build in Hero.  Its sort of the opposite of Endurance, but its a classic computer gaming feature, from Mechwarrior to modern MMOGs.

[Scott Baker]

You could play this as the SFX for an END Reserve. The power uses END from the reserve (building up the heat, or whatever). It cools down as it recovers. You can even play it that way by just tallying the total END used (increasing) and then subtracting the recovery from the total.

 

Or try it as recoverable charges. The recovery condition is time.

[Hyper-Man]

Couple of different ways to build this.

 

The more inefficient but good for explaining it would be to use an Endurance Reserve and Build all the Abilities affected with a custom Limitation based on the status of the Reserve per your description.  The main problem here is that you are essentially paying for a Limitation.

 

The efficient build would be to just use the Custom Limitation to create a stand alone tracking mechanism (in a similar train of thought as LTE) based on the Side Effect Limitation.  Each time an ability with this Limitation is used a tracking token is gained and only X amount are removed each Turn.  If the number of tokens reaches value Y then the powers can't be used. Deciding on Values is the hard part here.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I kind of like the END reserve idea but it is basically paying for something that's limiting you which is a bit backward.

[Steve]

I suppose you could do a form of recoverable charges where the charges are regained at a set rate. With two charges and a recovery rate in Turns or Minutes, the ability won't be used much before it needs to cool down and recover the charges. If the recovery rate is every Turn, reduce the limitation value a bit. That's probably the simplest way to construct it. You could also have it cost endurance in addition to charges.

[HeroGM]

Delayed use (fantasy hero 6 p162)
A power with this limitation (a form of limited power) cannot be used until a certain amount of time has passed since it was last used. This can represent a "cool down" period before a weapon can be fired again ....

-1/4 for every other phase, additional -1/4 per step down the time chart (I.e. -1 for five minutes)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Delayed Use is a great device but it fits #4 best really.

[HeroGM]

Of you can use it with charges and pro-rate it a little bit, similar to what people have done with body healing.

[Doc Democracy]

Could you build it as a Burn-out?  Start with burn-out at 8-, each use raises the chance until it overheats (burns out).  You then have the refresh written as (perhaps) five minutes per point raised before burnout.

 

This would mean if you were unlucky and it burns out early that you get it back online more quickly.  You could be meaner and make every one on the burn-out recover a step on the time chart...

 

It is a custom limitation but it has the advantage (ha!) of actually being a limitation in the rules...

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

That would be a useful option, as an imprecise heat sink system.  It warms up and the systems become increasingly likely to shut down or not function but its never clear when it will happen until your each maximum "heat."

[Armitage]

The mecha chapter of The Ultimate Vehicle recommended giving a vehicle that relies on heat sinks an END Reserve that represents both the power of the mecha's engine and the efficiency of its cooling system.  The more systems that the mecha uses at once or for prolonged periods, the more strain it puts on the cooling system.

The mecha takes a Dependence Complication that inflicts 11- Activation on all of the mecha's Powers when the END Reserve is below 25% maximum capacity.  A alternative also described is 14- Activation at 40%, reduced by 1 for every additional 5%.

[IndianaJoe3]

The PhysLim is awkward if the vehicle has systems that aren't affected by overheating. I'd probably go the pseudo-END Reserve or Recoverable Charge route.

[SirViss]

Yeah I kind of like the END reserve idea but it is basically paying for something that's limiting you which is a bit backward.

 

How is the Heat Sink concept limiting the powers?

 

The way I look at it, a weapon system has to either pay END which would come for somekind of power system (END Reserve) or use charges. Charges can quickly become an advantage (more than 16 Charges a day) and by default only recover once per day, unless the GM handwaves some rules for dramatic purposes. Ususally if a weapon does not use charges it would be bought with Costs No END, or use an END Reserve. When compared to the cost of Costs No END (+1/2 advantage), an END Reserve is pretty cheap, and it is easy to tailor the effectiveness of the Heat Sinks with the REC of the Reserve.

 

I think one of stumbling block for this suggestion is the name END Reserve. If you called it Heat Gauge than it is easier to visualize how it can apply. It is just using the Endurance costs that the system suggest for each power to denote the Heat generated by those systems, so instead of END call them Heat Units.

 

In the end, the reason i like this concept the most is that it probably requires the least (if any) handwaving of rules by the GM.

[IndianaJoe3]

I expect that a weapon could generate heat and still cost END, so using and END Reserve as a proxy for heat generation might not be applicable.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Another option is to use the Side Effects limitation, which Drains the power when it's used. (It degrades due to heat build up.)

 

This could be used another way: as part of a variable limitation, in which the side effect doesn't occur until after all the charges are used up.

 

So you could have a (-1/4) variable limitation: either 4 recoverable charges (-1/2) or a Minor Side Effect which always occurs (-1/2)

 

The side effect would be a 1.5d6 Drain on the Power.

[SirViss]

I expect that a weapon could generate heat and still cost END, so using and END Reserve as a proxy for heat generation might not be applicable.

 

I have seen weapons in games that used both charges and generated heat, but seldomly have a seen a system that used END (or something similar) and heat as a limiting factors. Not to say that it could not exist. You could have 2 END Reserves, one for END and one for heat. There is nothing that says that you are restricted to one END Reserve, and as to where you would get the values for both Heat and END, you could say (as an example) that 1/3 of the END come from the power supply, and 2/3 of the END represent the generated heat. You could even do this by weapon system to represent the difference from system to system.

 

Just an idea of the top of my head.

[Greywind]

Anybody tried searching for Thia Halmades' Halo threads? Seems the Covenant plasma weapons would be a good place to look.

[Christopher R Taylor]

How is the Heat Sink concept limiting the powers?

Well, let's put it this way, the powers are no more advantageous than endurance cost, so shouldn't cost more.  Its a reverse-END concept, so there's no reason the character should need to pay to use it.

[SirViss]

Well, let's put it this way, the powers are no more advantageous than endurance cost, so shouldn't cost more.  Its a reverse-END concept, so there's no reason the character should need to pay to use it.

 

I have to admit that answer gave me pause. And then another question pop-up: If you don't modify a power, where does the END come from? For the purposes or the rules, the END must be paid. If you don't have charges or Cost No END advantage the END cost would have to be covered by the character thus causing to be fatigued more quickly.

 

The thing is it isn't a "reverse-END concept" since you still want the weapon to cost something, and instead of calling it ENDURANCE you want it to be Heat point (or somesuch). If the character is not suffering from the heat generated it has to go somewhere. I see that as being an advantage.

 

Also, Instant powers admitedly do not take full advantage of END Reserves. If you had a system based on a Constant power (such as a Force Field) then it would stay up if the character got Stunned or Knock-out.

[Doc Democracy]

Heatsink should be a problem.  There are so many different things that might relate to that and it is probably at its least impact when it is on a single power.

 

It is different from other use limitations in that it limits how often you can use that power repeatedly, even if you have the END or charges to do so.  If the weapon has overheated it does not matter if you have more bullets (charges) or the energy to fire it (END).

 

The question is, how you reflect that, in game, where the player feels the limitation.

 

In my head I have a system where each shot of the weapon costs two charges, one used, one converted to heat.  If the remaining charges equals the heat pool then the weapon overheats and cannot fire.  The question is, how slowly would the charges in the heat pool returning to the charge pool have to be to make that a limitation to the player.

 

With 16 charges you have a decent leeway - you could fire five times before you got to almost parity (six charges left with five heat)  If you fire six times the weapon has overheated.

 

The next question would be whether, once overheated, you can fire again when the balance has been restored or when you have no more heat.  Player should be able to choose either but the second is more limiting than the first.

 

I reckon this could be replicated in END Reserve simply by giving the player a "heat pool", doubling effective END cost of powers and putting the second END into heat.  The recovery of the heat pool could cost points and reflect how quickly the cooldown takes.

 

Something like that perhaps?

[Christopher R Taylor]

The only way this would end up being an advantage as I see it, is that it could in theory build up all the "heat" (or whatever else its building up) and make that power or set of powers unusuable... but the rest of the character's powers are still available.

 

The problem with that is charges work the same way: you use up the charges, the power is no good any more, but the character can still use the rest of their abilities.  But charges are offset by having a very slow recovery time in most cases, which reduces their value.  After a while, you run out.

 

So if the heat sink was very large and didn't max out for a long time, it would be an advantage.  Which does make this feel a lot like a recoverable charge build; the question then becomes how to set up the mechanic of how to regulate the speed of recovery.

[Scott Baker]

So if the heat sink was very large and didn't max out for a long time, it would be an advantage.  Which does make this feel a lot like a recoverable charge build; the question then becomes how to set up the mechanic of how to regulate the speed of recovery.

Since this is totally a GM option variation of recoverable charges, why not just state that they recover 1 charge every X segments (not sure what would be appropriate for your game). A variation could be that the recovery only starts after 1 phase of the power not being used--representing that the weapon doesn't actually start cooling down until they stop using it.

[SirViss]

Someome (IndianaJoe3) posted the possibility that a system could both cost END and generate heat. I should ask: does the hypothetical system that we are talking about still cost End to use?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm less interested in a specific build than a metabuild that could be used for a variety of settings and types of devices.  So I'd want a concept that didn't require both END and heat control, just to make it simple and more broadly functional.

[SirViss]

I assume that the system won't be using charages either. Will it have Cost No END advantage?