Sonic Based Stun

[Sveta8]

Hello there! I'll get down to the meat of the question.

I'm currently working on a basic sort of stunning power. The goal is for an overwhelming being to let out a horrific screech to cause the enemy to falter in their tracts. Now, I've come across a few ways to do this and am curious on ya'lls takes on them. More specifically, as last time people grumbled for me asking which of a set of options was right... What of these powers would you not want to see at your table? Either for abuse, or thematic, or just that you don't like it.

 

Firstly, is the one with the least... ruling for it. Treat it as either a Radius or cone based Flash attack against both Hearing and Touch. A scream so strong it sends shakes through your bones! Now, neither of these are targeting senses normally, and thus, it really is up to the GM how effective this ability might end up being. But, that is the first option.

Secondly, is a Presence Attack. Presence specifically bought with the Area of Effect Advantage, likely Cone, that effects those in the area. There are already descriptions for how differing levels of successes may effect opponents, Large creatures naturally get some extra Presence that's paid for, and it effects things properly! Heck, if the points allow, could try to have either the Presence attack, or the Above Flash be set to Trigger off one another.  My problem with this one however... is action economy. Presence Attacks don't... really have a cost there, and I don't want to have an ability that could be seen rife with abuse.

Thirdly, is a Area of effect... Psychic Entangle! Likely low Defense on it as well as Body, but it is a very very solid way to prevent the foes from going anywhere, stopping them in their tracks and functionally restraining them for just a moment. Can even throw on the Adder of Stops a Sense group so that they can't hear while it's lingering. My concern with this option is simply that it feels furthest from the intent of the power. It is a (mental) force that stops them. I don't so much want to stop them, as simply hinder them deeply. It's like... I want to attack there sense of balance.

But, options I am missing, ones that are generally disliked... Feel free to inform or rant as you see fit.

[HeroGM]

Do you have APG? It has a write up for "voice range".

 

You could try Pre attack linked with a dex/str drain ( oe do the drain by itself).

 

[Sveta8]

Myself? No, but I do have a friend who I can borrow that from. I'll have to check it out! Vocal range... facinating.

As for building it as a Drain... that could work too! Hadn't considered it like that. Instead of applying a penalty to what they currently have, just flat out taking away the ability to act... Hum. I'll have to think on that.

[IndianaJoe3]

APG1 also has a, "stunning" option for Change Environment that might be what you want.

[Tech]

I guess the question is: what do you want it to do in game mechanics?

a) Do you want it to 'stun' them in their tracks? If so, perhaps a weak Entangle using Rec or Ego stat to break out.

b) Do you want it to weaken them? Perhaps a Stun drain.

c) Do you want them just to fall over from pain? Perhaps a NND attack.

[HeroGM]

Voice Range [APG136] - Basically a combination of Area of Effect and Incantations. Combine Area of Effect (Radius) at +1 with Incantations and the No Range Limitation. Something similar can be done for Sight Range [APG135].

 

As for Incantations does the feature/person need to be screaming the who time or is it a lingering effect?

 

[unclevlad]

If the intent is for it to be fearful, make it Mind Control.  The effect is to impact emotions;  it doesn't require a mental power.  Look at things like Alternate Combat Value.  I'd probably prefer AoE Cone, possibly with Explosion.  Radius isn't wrong;  it feels less right to me tho.

 

Mental Entangle is an interesting notion too, altho IIRC it's got more requirements on it.  

 

These both feel fairly natural.  

[Sveta8]

Pardon for belated replys, had life things to do.

As for if they have to be screaming the whole time, I had originally considered it as a lingering effect, fading away as time progresses. Just like how a single point source of sound can cause a ringing in your ears after it ends, but it fades away. And, while the concept of them continuing to scream or cause that sort of stunning effect sounds amusing, it is also a bit more than I intend.

From the glance over Stunning in AGP I feel it is both very close to what I am looking for but too... broad so to speak? Trying to find the correct way to state it. Ah. It feels too encompassing and all or Nothing. It results in Opponents either fumbling to move and hardly able to defend themselves and eating up their next Segment, or they continue on their merry way. 

 

Looking at it in a mechanical lens, I am trying to in essence, do 3 things in this action. Yes that will likely make it expensive, or a layered effect. I am aware.

1.  Cause the Opponent into failing to act effectively. This is the most mechanically important portion. A Penalty to their Action Economy of sorts. Trying to deprive a Half Phase Action, Ala Presence Attack +10, is the aim for that. Stunning Change Environment also does this well.
2.  Causing the Opponent to be disconnected or Isolated. This is the Sense effecting portion. Hearing specifically, due to thematics. Maximum I'm looking for here is just a turn or two of effect, likely Flash or Darkness or similar.
3. Prevent the Opponent from gathering their bearings. Whether it is forgetting where they are going, slowing down their movement, or .

The end goal is easy to understand in theory. Big Monster moves around the corner, and screams. Opponent, one of the people whom is being screamed at, should in effect feel hapless to some degree. Here is a Great Big Monster and you find yourself hardly able to shoot back at it. Running feels and may very well be useless, as your mind scrambles to try and figure out what to do, where to go, and in doing so... misses out on where may be best to go, and just goes with the first instinct, if they even run. And worse yet, you can't hear. The instructions you were getting are cut off. You can watch people's lips move, see them pointing and directing, but you just... can't hear it. Can't make sense of it. You can't fight it. You can't run from it. You feel lost and alone.

The goal is to make the opponent feel Hopeless.


Taking a look mechanically... It looks like I am aiming for buying some extra Presence with the Voice Range Area modifier, potentially Costs END to use, and For Presence Attacks Only Limitation. Linked to this would be a Flash with the same Area Modifier, Linked Power Limitation and probably have it on an Explosion Limitation, so that it fades out the further away they are.

 

The third effect... I can see that being done by a Mind Control, but having an Area based Mind control with the intent to just make them lose track of where they are and where to go feels like using a God-Slaying sword to cut cake. I might be able to use a Mental Change Environment effect to cause the effect, but I'm not certain how that would work. Using Transform, Person into Person who doesn't know where they are, also runs into the Mind Control Problem.
 

[archer]

5 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

As for if they have to be screaming the whole time, I had originally considered it as a lingering effect, fading away as time progresses. Just like how a single point source of sound can cause a ringing in your ears after it ends, but it fades away.

 

Wait...ringing in your ears is supposed to fade away??

[Crusty]

On 9/11/2020 at 6:40 AM, ChaosDrgn said:

8 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

The goal is to make the opponent feel Hopeless.

 

PRE Attack and a Hearing Flash in a Compound / Linked Power could work (with AOE etc.)

6e2 p137 has an example of a classic PRE attack that seems spot on (Dr Terror at the bottom) and extending the duration of the attacks is a 5pt adder. It’s mechanically simpler and seems to model what you’re looking for. What do you think?

[Sveta8]

 

I would say that I was not aware Extending the duration was a 5pt adder! Granted, finding specific information for PRE Attacks is weirdly hard. If you could point me in the direction of where you found that, I would be very thankful!

But I would also say that is very much What I was looking for. I had pretty well resolved to follow that line of thought, but the was struggling to figure out how to make it stick.

 

[Crusty]

6e2 Combat and Adventuring, Presence Attacks, starts page 136 with the specific info on 137

 

the Dr Terror example is I think very applicable here

 

its at GM discretion note, but if it’s your game that’s not going to be a problem 😁

[Sveta8]

Ah. Almost. It isn't listed as an Adder, but as a bonus for beating your intended Presence Threshold by +5. For that to take place though, it dictates it as needing for the player to declare beforehand what level of the Roll they are aiming for. Whether it is PRE +10 and you managed to get PRE +25, then it inflicts the PRE +10 Effect for longer.

Handy, but not a broad use Adder.

[Crusty]

So close...

 

although why not just declare it? Have monstrous PRE and do it that way?

[Sveta8]

Why not?
Well, while it would not be a hard sell at first, were I the GM, I'd allow it on the condition it may be revoked in the future. While that is true for all powers and builds and so on, it is something I would want to make clear. Because otherwise, there is not a whole lot about that puts forth a method to reliably deny an opponent a portion of their turn. True, this may function as a once per battle mechanic (what with Presence Attacks being encouraged to diminish in effectiveness each time used on the same foe,) but if it ends up being a Win Button sort of situation... Well, one need only press the Win Button once in a battle after all.

As I find myself working to build this power in the shoes of a player, It is something that while I would enjoy, feels like it is for a higher power campaign than the one I"m stepping into at this time. Simply stating the PRE+10 Effect of causing them to only have a Half Phase is more than enough if it lasts a few Phases. Not to mention, I don't know how much PRE this GM gives their foes. I might be accidentally preying on a massive weakness, or butting up against an inscrutable wall. So for now, I may mention it as an idea, but not bank any aim on it as of yet.

Considering how the Duration extention would directly link with Points put into it though, I would probably suggest if you do want to include it, have it be in tiers. Double the duration of PRE = attacks for an Adder, but for PRE + 10, that's a 1/4 Advantage. Pre +20? 1/2. Each one granting the ability of the ones below as well, but yeah. That's me thought.

 

[unclevlad]

14 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

Looking at it in a mechanical lens, I am trying to in essence, do 3 things in this action. Yes that will likely make it expensive, or a layered effect. I am aware.

1.  Cause the Opponent into failing to act effectively. This is the most mechanically important portion. A Penalty to their Action Economy of sorts. Trying to deprive a Half Phase Action, Ala Presence Attack +10, is the aim for that. Stunning Change Environment also does this well.
2.  Causing the Opponent to be disconnected or Isolated. This is the Sense effecting portion. Hearing specifically, due to thematics. Maximum I'm looking for here is just a turn or two of effect, likely Flash or Darkness or similar.
3. Prevent the Opponent from gathering their bearings. Whether it is forgetting where they are going, slowing down their movement, or .

The goal is to make the opponent feel Hopeless.

 

 

1.  Mind Control.

2.  Mind Control.

3.  Mind Control.

 

Mind Control.

 

It's the overarching power that can do all of this.

[Sveta8]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Mind Control.

 

It's the overarching power that can do all of this.

While my initial want is to avoid Mind Effecting powers, I will try to consider this and look at it in that light. My main concern comes from the fact that this would cause the imposing nature of appearance to have no effect. Rather, just how much you bump up the (now 'psychic') scream's effect would be how much it impacts. I could in theory attach it to a Presence Attack, but you seem to indicate it should all be done in one, so I shall write it as such.

I'd be looking for it to be a Physical Action that impacts a Mental Effect, so Alternate Combat Value (OCV instead of OMCV +1/4). It would still have the Vocal Range effect (Area of Effect: Radius +1, No Range -1/2, Incantation -1/4). This still relies on them being in their Monsterous form. (Unified Power -1/4, Only in Alternate Identity -1/4). It's effect is limited to what feels appropriate for a Fearful power, as they can't scream and you run off to go do housework. (Fear Effect -1/4|-1/2) They should not Scare themselves (Personal Immunity +1/4) This isn't a Mental Invisible Control, but a Physical Scream. It's Obvious. (-1/2)

Given that I am aiming for a Damage Class equivalent of 8 or 9, That would be... 90 or 101 Active Points, 30|28 or 34|31 Points. Expensive, but wraps it all up in a solid single power. Which is... to be honest? Very good. It just requires a bit more GM Fiat to figure out exactly how they should react.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Sveta8
Forgot that Mind Control is not Obvious.

[Hugh Neilson]

As always, it really depends on how you want the screech to resolve mechanically. A PRE attack (fear only, or just "Hesitation only") is already AoE and requires no roll to hit, so no CV modification is required.  Of course, AoE doesn't require a roll to hit anyway.  Your own PRE does not affect you.

 

Using a Mind Control mechanic would bring a somewhat more objective mechanical resolution, but 8d6 or 9d6 will average a roll of 28 or 31.5.  That's enough to get a normal EGO to +10 or +20.  I don't mind hesitating for a second or two if I'm just wandering around or chatting with friends.  I do mind if I have to get to the elevator so I can make it to a meeting on time.  If I'm being threatened by a monster, or already in combat fighting for my life, I am going to be pretty opposed to hesitating.  Reliably obtaining a +20 or +30 result isn't likely with 8 or 9 d6.  It will likely be somewhat effective against mooks, but not against serious threats.

[Thia Halmades]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:13 AM, Sveta8 said:

Hello there! I'll get down to the meat of the question.

I'm currently working on a basic sort of stunning power. The goal is for an overwhelming being to let out a horrific screech to cause the enemy to falter in their tracts. Now, I've come across a few ways to do this and am curious on ya'lls takes on them. More specifically, as last time people grumbled for me asking which of a set of options was right... What of these powers would you not want to see at your table? Either for abuse, or thematic, or just that you don't like it.

 

Firstly, is the one with the least... ruling for it. Treat it as either a Radius or cone based Flash attack against both Hearing and Touch. A scream so strong it sends shakes through your bones! Now, neither of these are targeting senses normally, and thus, it really is up to the GM how effective this ability might end up being. But, that is the first option.

Secondly, is a Presence Attack. Presence specifically bought with the Area of Effect Advantage, likely Cone, that effects those in the area. There are already descriptions for how differing levels of successes may effect opponents, Large creatures naturally get some extra Presence that's paid for, and it effects things properly! Heck, if the points allow, could try to have either the Presence attack, or the Above Flash be set to Trigger off one another.  My problem with this one however... is action economy. Presence Attacks don't... really have a cost there, and I don't want to have an ability that could be seen rife with abuse.

Thirdly, is a Area of effect... Psychic Entangle! Likely low Defense on it as well as Body, but it is a very very solid way to prevent the foes from going anywhere, stopping them in their tracks and functionally restraining them for just a moment. Can even throw on the Adder of Stops a Sense group so that they can't hear while it's lingering. My concern with this option is simply that it feels furthest from the intent of the power. It is a (mental) force that stops them. I don't so much want to stop them, as simply hinder them deeply. It's like... I want to attack there sense of balance.

But, options I am missing, ones that are generally disliked... Feel free to inform or rant as you see fit.

 

Earlier I replied to one of your posts and I said “you are unlikely to ask stupid questions,” and here is proof I was right — this is a perfectly reasonable question, particularly for a newcomer to a system that “has so many ways to do things.” [insert thematically heavy sigh]. So let me dispel {HA!} that idea first; yes, there are lots of ways to achieve a specific effect, but usually, if you reason from effect, there’s a single, clear best option. When I do a build, and this is a hard earned lesson, much of which I attribute to @Chris Goodwin and @ghost-angel for beating that concept into my skull. It’s why if you read my posts, particularly my later posts after I’d done six or seven full game designs and overhauls, you’ll see that theme repeated: What exactly do you want it to do, and how exactly do you envision them doing it? Once I have those two pieces of information, I can usually cobble something together. Let’s get to it then. Oh, pet peeve; avoid negatives in your writing. Rather than ask “what of these don’t you want,” it’s much easier to ask “Which of these do you prefer?” This also makes it easier for people to respond as their thinking is normalized.

Where’s my hat? Ah, yes.

 

You have a GLB who’s throwing a “banshee like wail” into a crowd that strips STUN (and possibly blinds/deafens) the target/group. Here’s the critical point I want to address; your first concept is the one with the most concrete rules, I just don’t think you have the familiarity to get to it. It is a Flash Attack, which has a defined number of dice; you can also do it as Darkness if you want it to really wreck someone. Then you add your Area of Effect and sprinkle in some limitations et voila! Champagne.

 

Next up, PRE attack. A Presence attack sort of by its nature is an AOE, it doesn’t need to be purchased separately, but you certainly can do that. You can also link a power to the limitation “requires a stat roll,” — for me, I’ve used this aggressively to tie off an ability to a power, such as PRE, so those points do more work for the character. I think PRE attacks tend to be unreliable; one of my signature HERO characters, Aiden, was a young dragon. And by “young” I mean he was only 600 points or so, so doing a massive PRE attack was one of his big things, and it was always fun to roll 12d6, but more often than not, the result didn’t eclipse the target by enough points to make it worth while.

 

Your third choice, Entangle. I agree with you; what you are describing is not an Entangle.

 

So I think none of those represent what you described; I believe that this is an Energy Blast, No Body (-1/2?), Compound Power, Flash (Hearing). Power Link; one set of dice is rolled and it represents the effect for both powers — that’s a home brew rule, by the way, and one I absolutely swear by. So you have a 12d6 EB plus 12d6 Flash, you roll the dice once, and done. Makes things clean and consistent. The object of the power is to overwhelm the targets CON so they get stun-locked into place, and if they happen to also get their STUN dropped, great.

 

The other way to do this is an AOE Change Environment, where the scream is so powerful that it makes the terrain quiver and grinds movement to a halt; imagine a series of waves going so hard that you can see concrete warp beneath it. This should have AOE, Lingering Effect, and you can also add in +Perception modifiers making it nearly impossible to hear anything other than the scream. 

 

Let me know if either of those are closer to your original vision.

[Sveta8]

8 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

You have a GLB who’s throwing a “banshee like wail” into a crowd that strips STUN (and possibly blinds/deafens) the target/group. Here’s the critical point I want to address; your first concept is the one with the most concrete rules, I just don’t think you have the familiarity to get to it. It is a Flash Attack, which has a defined number of dice; you can also do it as Darkness if you want it to really wreck someone. Then you add your Area of Effect and sprinkle in some limitations et voila! Champagne.

 

This is, in effect, the core concept of the attack. You have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. And as you have addressed above, I will attempt to once more clarify intent. A shriek or wail or howl of some sort, made over an area, to stun or stagger those there, and prevent hearing successfully. Disorientation is a plus. 

I have all but decided to treat it as something with a Linked Flash Attack. Darkness too could work, but as that is bought per radius and as a Constant power at that, it makes less sense, as the Attack so to speak is intended as an instantaneous action. The stunning effect is simply where I get a little lost, as, as you put it, there seem to be a multitude of different ways to do it.

Apologies for referring to a condition in the negative however. I tend to wind up looking at a situation and finding myself trying to compare which of the options feels least appropriate, and working up from there. In this very situation, I have been offered the options of Mind Control, Energy Blast, Change Environments, Presence Attack, and Drain, as each has a method for handling a "Stunning" effect in different manners. Lacking experience, I can't tell which would be most appropriate, so I have to go with what feels least appropriate. Ala, working in reverse.

However, you put forth an Energy Blast, which I had not yet considered. Looking back over it, I'm not exactly certain why. It is not applying a specific condition, but is working to stagger the foe by taking away STUN. It's simple, but succinct. 

The Change Environment version is an amusing concept I must admit, but If anything that feels as much a portion of after effects than anything else. Should it seem appropriate later, including it as a Linked power may work, but I find it unlikely for more Point based reasons than anything else. 

The resulting end would be something along the lines of...
Sonic Screech: Xd6 Blast, Area of Effect: Radius/Cone (+1), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), STUN Only (-0), Unified Power (-1/4), Jointly Linked: Greater (-1/4), Power Link (-0?)
Deafening Roar: Xd6 Hearing Flash, Area of Effect: Radius/Cone (+1), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Jointly Linked: Lesser (-1/2), Power Link (-0?)

That... is workable I believe.

[Thia Halmades]

Amusing side thought! You could also do this with Reduced Penetration. I’m not suggesting it, as much as this is exactly the kind of power —.a sonic shock wave — that could as its special effect be mitigated by armor, which absorbs and redistributes the damage wave, while leaving everyone fully susceptible to the STUN effect. Just bringing threads full circle.

 

Again, critical point, “could as its special effect.” Reason from effect, always. Maybe I’ll update a tag somewhere.

[Sveta8]

A fair option, and in short, I do not know. 
I could write it with Explosion in mind. Sonic attacks would make sense to diminish the most via distance.
I could write it with Reduced Penetration. Sonic attacks are well absorbed via the armor. 
I could write it with Restrainable. If someone holds onto their head, can't open their maw and scream as need be.

It is striking a balance between what makes sense, what is an actual limitation, and not just throwing the power under the bus. Dramatic Realism and all.

[Thia Halmades]

Verisimilitude is one of my favorite words. I want to pick something specifically from that stack:

 

Restrainable. You already have this, because the power has Incantations (-1/4), so Restrainable would be redundant, unless, there’s another way to do it, such as ringing a huge gong (Venom), completely drenching your GLB with water (Sandman), or by knowing the exact modulating frequency of the shriek and running a counter frequency (this is one of those long term things where they have to go, get hit, sample the sound, discover the sound breaks their silly weak machinery, find a specialist, save that specialist from the fridge they got trapped in, finally run the sample, discover the clue, build the device, THEN they use the device for three turns before the GLB adjusts and OH SNAP HIS HEAD EXPLODED!) ... where was I? Oh yes.

 

This is where we really start to ask, “HOW restrainable are we talking?” Restrainable on its own is -1/4, although depending on the ease by which something can be restrained could go up to -1/2, if its harder to release the condition, what have you. My other primary HERO character I created as my personal take on Venom, and based in part on a novel I read as a kid which I think was “A Mote In God’s Eye,” but it could have been a different book entirely. Anyway. Symbiote. All of his powers were restrainable, subject to sufficient magnetic fields (-1/4). 

 

It came up the exact same number of times I’ve been to the Moon. Zero. Now, -1/4 isn’t a big deal either way, but that’s neither here nor there. My point is that in the case described, Restrainable is redundant. You already have Incantations (-1/4), so anything that interferes with your GLBs ability to scream — lockjaw, paralysis, lack of transferable material, etc. etc. — already meets the condition. Restrainable is what you use when Gestures, Incantations, or whatever don’t cover all of the reasonable ways you/the NPC can be stopped.

[Sveta8]

That... I had not considered. Point made.