What skills would these be

[pawsplay]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:31 AM, zslane said:

 However, in a campaign in which an ability will have major dramatic significance, it should be a characteristic-based skill with the appropriately higher price that entails.

 

Why? I've never seen a skill used that way. And I can't even imagine a game where dancing plays that role. There are no dance battle rules in Hero. If some noble challenges you to a dance-off, you could just refuse. Or kidnap them. Or something. Dancing as a skill is literally just used to dance.

[Spence]

18 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

 

Why? I've never seen a skill used that way. And I can't even imagine a game where dancing plays that role. There are no dance battle rules in Hero. If some noble challenges you to a dance-off, you could just refuse. Or kidnap them. Or something. Dancing as a skill is literally just used to dance.

 

Hero is a kit and can be used to simulate what ever you want.

 

As for a game where dancing plays that role, it is easy once you read through the game Pendragon. 

And converting Pendragon to use Hero as the game system is the actual topic of this thread.

 

There have been other games that use dancing and other "courtly" skills as prime skills for the characters in court intrigue and political maneuvering. Just like some games use skills like Seduction.

 

But I have never really been interested in those styles of gaming. So while I know they exist (mostly due to my addiction for buying RPGs), I haven't actually played them. 

[zslane]

15 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I've never seen a skill used that way.

 

In this context, it is really no different than, say, Acrobatics. You could, I suppose, reduce that to a Background Skill such as PS: Acrobat and not bother with the existing Acrobatics DEX-skill. But why? I've never seen Acrobatics used that way...

[HeroGM]

16 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

Why? I've never seen a skill used that way. And I can't even imagine a game where dancing plays that role. There are no dance battle rules in Hero. If some noble challenges you to a dance-off, you could just refuse. Or kidnap them. Or something. Dancing as a skill is literally just used to dance.

Well there goes that one race that uses dance as communication.

 

tinagra anyone?

[Chris Goodwin]

When I played in a Bushido Hero game lo these many eons ago, there were a number of skills from the original game that were brought into Fantasy Hero as PS's.  Probably Tea Ceremony, I'm sure a number of performance skills like kabuki... I don't have any of the notes left, as it's been a very long time, but my foggy memory does recall some of that.

 

[zslane]

That makes sense to me. Those skills serve mostly to connect PCs to the setting, which Background Skills are perfect for. Activities like performing tea ceremonies or kabuki are important to the culture of the setting, but are rarely important to an adventure.

[pawsplay]

21 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Hero is a kit and can be used to simulate what ever you want.

 

As for a game where dancing plays that role, it is easy once you read through the game Pendragon. 

And converting Pendragon to use Hero as the game system is the actual topic of this thread.

 

There have been other games that use dancing and other "courtly" skills as prime skills for the characters in court intrigue and political maneuvering. Just like some games use skills like Seduction.

 

But I have never really been interested in those styles of gaming. So while I know they exist (mostly due to my addiction for buying RPGs), I haven't actually played them. 

 

I've played Hero in many genres, and I've never been in a situation where I thought Background skills should be priced like standard skills. A successful PS: Dancer check is not going to have any truly predictable effect beyond going a dance. It might impress someone, or they might not care. It's not the same as Conversation, Acrobatics, Stealth, and so forth, which have defined roles in challenges. Just because a Background skill is prominent doesn't mean it stops being a Background skill. Such skills typically have a narrow focus, and that definitely describes dance. Even doing a cheerleader routine or performing a somersault is not a core use of the skill, and challenging attempts would be at a penalty. PS: Dancer does not at all substitute for adventuring uses of Acrobatics.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, pawsplay said:

I've played Hero in many genres, and I've never been in a situation where I thought Background skills should be priced like standard skills.

 

You and the skill argument people are off in a corner talking about a completely different thing than the subject.

 

The subject is converting a group of Pendragon skills into a Hero version.

Dance as it it used in Pendragon is not a background skill.  It is used as an active skill in what can be called social combat for lack of a better term.

 

It is really surprising that Hero players can understand that powers such as Energy Blast can be used to model everything from a crossbow bolt to a laser and the power "name" is just a label for an effect, but suddenly can't comprehend that a skills name may also be just a label. 

 

This conversation has nothing to do with a Background Skill or a Professional Skill.

It is about an active skill that just happens to be named Dance.

 

 

[pawsplay]

22 minutes ago, Spence said:

The subject is converting a group of Pendragon skills into a Hero version.

Dance as it it used in Pendragon is not a background skill.  It is used as an active skill in what can be called social combat for lack of a better term.

 

 

Tell me more about this social combat. Also, I would love to hear a better explanation why Pendragon, alone among all other genres from Fantasy Hero to Champions, doesn't have Background skills.

[Duke Bushido]

25 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

 

I would love to hear a better explanation why Pendragon, alone among all other genres from Fantasy Hero to Champions, doesn't have Background skills.

 

 

I know I'm not the guy you asked, and honestly, that's probably for the best, as I've only read the game once (never played it, but wanted to read it as an on-again, off-again Arthurian fan), but the biggest reason it doesn't have background skills lines up with Traveller (original LBB Traveller; I know little about newer versions) Old School D&D and several other games do not have background skills:

 

They aren't using the HERO System, and handle skill differently.  The biggest difference is that every skill listed matters in some way-- well, that's actually not a difference: every skill _listed_ in HERO matters as well.  It's the "skills not listed" part where HERO differs from pretty much everything else:

 

HERO-- or at least the fandom-- thinks you should pay a minimum of a point for it, spending other points to advance it, etc, etc, etc--  even when... well, it doesn't matter.  In other games, "skills" that aren't listed you can have or not have as suits your idea of the character, you don't roll anything when the situation comes up, but rather role-play the skill as best you can (kinda sucks if you don't have it but your character does--- which is also the same in HERO, when you get down to it).

 

Let's go this route:  every skill listed in Pendragon, as well as many other games, does a specific in-game thing, has tangible rewards, and can have a big impact on a game.   HERO (again, at least the fandom, if not the rules) demand that if you know it, then you must buy it, even if it is something that is just not going to come up in play:  Let's say I make a character with the knowledge and experience to distinguish between forty different breeds of cattle.  In HERO, that's a background, knowledge, or professional skill, and I buy it, or I don't have it.  (Again, I would like to stress that the rules don't actually shove that down your throat, but the fandom and the "get what you pay for; pay for what you get" mantra _do_ push it down your throat, unless your gag reflex is particularly tender and you fight back).

 

In any other game:

 

My character can distinguish between forty different breeds of cow.

 

Cool!  That's an interesting thing.  Oh, hey--- we're running a Western tonight, so it might even come up!  And of course, if it _never_ comes up, so what?

 

The weird part of "pay for it or you don't have it" is the acceptance of "well, if it's on your sheet, you're telling the GM that it's important to you and he should go out of his way to make sure there's occasion for you to use that skill every once in a while; after all, you _did_ pay for it."

 

We can do all that, and not see the silliness of it.  Why, we might even insist that "well you have to buy at least two points of animal husbandry, and we'll put a limitation on it that you can only use it for X."

 

Other games....  they don't really do that.   All skills are important; that's why they are listed.  If they aren't listed, they aren't important enough or significant enough to bother with, so help yourself.  If it never comes up, well you can still tell people about it.

 

 

That sums it up about as plainly as it can be, I think.

 

 

[pawsplay]

It's not a matter of being useful, but of being generally useful, and having specific, discrete effects in challenges.

[Spence]

16 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

Tell me more about this social combat. Also, I would love to hear a better explanation why Pendragon, alone among all other genres from Fantasy Hero to Champions, doesn't have Background skills.

 

I will need to refresh myself before commenting on details (I want to make sure I am not mixing games). But it isn't just Pendragon, there are dozens of RPGs over the tears that have versions of this.  Pretty much any game tha deals in political intrigue or romantic themes (lovey-dovey type).  

 

I have tried to play a few in the past, not Pendragon, but I simply couldn't get into the "action" as two players were exchanging "Composure" and "Social" hits as their PCs dueled over who got to take someone to the prom.

 

In a game like Pendragon or old Chivalry & Sorcery winning the right to carry a "Ladies" favor can be as important or even more important for a PC than winning a battle or breaking a seige.

 

Again, not my cup of tea, but they are out there.

 

12 hours ago, pawsplay said:

It's not a matter of being useful, but of being generally useful, and having specific, discrete effects in challenges.

 

No, it is a matter of providing the needed mechanic to meet the games need. 

 

My opinion on this is people are getting hung up on the terms "Dancing" and "skill", rather than looking at the intent of the ability.

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

HERO-- or at least the fandom-- thinks you should pay a minimum of a point for it, spending other points to advance it, etc, etc, etc--  even when... well, it doesn't matter.  In other games, "skills" that aren't listed you can have or not have as suits your idea of the character, you don't roll anything when the situation comes up, but rather role-play the skill as best you can (kinda sucks if you don't have it but your character does--- which is also the same in HERO, when you get down to it).

TANGENT ALERT:  I do not have it in front of me, but 6e explicitly states that something which will not be useful in the game should not carry a point cost.  I recall that pretty specifically, as I argued pretty heavily for that explicit statement, and I was quite pleased to see it when  6e arrived.

[Duke Bushido]

Not disagreeing with you.

 

Note my separation of "rules" v "fandom."

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Spence, I haven’t used it but Savage Worlds (Deluxe) does have a set of Social Rules. I don’t know in their myriad of Settings if anybody actually uses them either but to your point, it’s a Rule System that has them.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Spence, I haven’t used it but Savage Worlds (Deluxe) does have a set of Social Rules. I don’t know in their myriad of Settings if anybody actually uses them either but to your point, it’s a Rule System that has them.

 

Yep, and another is M&M second edition.  I think it was in their Manga supplement.

[pawsplay]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

 

I will need to refresh myself before commenting on details (I want to make sure I am not mixing games). But it isn't just Pendragon, there are dozens of RPGs over the tears that have versions of this.  Pretty much any game tha deals in political intrigue or romantic themes (lovey-dovey type).  

 

Yeah, and I'm not saying those games don't exist. I own a d20 supplement that puts social combat in D&D 3e. The question at hand is how much precedent there is for turning Background skills into full-fledged skills because they are "important to the setting."

Reality check: If it's a Background skill, it's important to the setting. If it were not impactful at all you wouldn't spend a single point on it.

 

3 hours ago, Spence said:

No, it is a matter of providing the needed mechanic to meet the games need. 

 

My opinion on this is people are getting hung up on the terms "Dancing" and "skill", rather than looking at the intent of the ability.

 

I think you are the one getting hung up. There are game sessions that could hinge on whether someone knows French. That doesn't mean French should be a general skill. Hero System has rules in place to cover dancing, painting, being an expert on heraldry, and so forth, and it's Background skills. In general, any skill that could be described as "a cultural activity, a specific one" is a Background skill. General adroitness is covered by High Society, Conversation, etc. I can think of zero, zero, examples of Hero System products suggesting you take a background skill and make it into a general skill because you expect it to feature prominently in some sessions.

[zslane]

Dancing doesn't appear on the skill list, which means GMs must decide which category it falls into for their campaign. GMs might even decide to create an entirely new skill for it. Electing to not toss it under the Professional Skill umbrella might be desirable in a particular campaign/setting because, as 6E1 points out:

 

Quote

However, they’re not intended to replace other Skills, and the GM should be careful to make sure that doesn’t happen. For example, PS: Paramedic is not the equivalent of the Paramedics Skill and doesn’t provide any of the abilities Paramedics does.

 

So a GM trying to capture the spirit of an RPG like Pendragon or C&S may easily conclude that PS: Dancer is not the equivalent of a Dancing Skill, and doesn't provide any of the abilities Dancing does. Creating a new Dancing skill, based on DEX and with the 3/2 price schedule may be exactly what the campaign calls for.

[Spence]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:15 PM, pawsplay said:

Reality check: If it's a Background skill, it's important to the setting. If it were not impactful at all you wouldn't spend a single point on it

 

On 12/10/2020 at 3:15 PM, pawsplay said:

I think you are the one getting hung up.

 

Mmm...

 

Well, I am not meaning to be rude, but I am just going to bow out. 

I have very little free time these days and getting embroiled in an argument is not how I want to use what time I have.  

And I also don't want to use it to re-familiarize myself with the system to point I can explain.

 

I shall just cede the field