Superhero Miniatures with Champions

[tkdguy]

2:45 - In all fairness, nothing survives repeated cat attacks!

 

8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

The most honest review I can pull off of the Hero Forge printed-in-color miniatures:

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Good news!

 

Got the rabbit ear back! 

 

Bad news!

 

He yakked it up on the hood of the truck....

[Scott Ruggels]

Wonder bunny is whole again! 

[tkdguy]

Can you get Hero Forge miniatures without the bases? If not, is there an option for clear bases? I'm a fan of those.

 

My biggest beef with Pathfinder Pawns is the way many of them are cut. Too many figures lose part of the artwork. Suddenly, your warrior has a stick instead of an axe! That was a deal killer for me.

[dmjalund]

Ah. Wonder Bunny's arch nemesis Mega-cat!

[Duke Bushido]

There is no clear or baseless option--  you know. Let's say non-base, okay?  Correct or not, "baseless has distinct...  "Connotations...."

 

 

So then, there is no clear base 

 

Crap!

 

There is no no option for transparent bases, nor is there a non-base option.

 

However, with practice, the fivures arw completely posable, so anything you manage to run outside the print are is your own fault.  

 

[Tom Cowan]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is no clear or baseless option--  you know. Let's say non-base, okay?  Correct or not, "baseless has distinct...  "Connotations...."

 

 

So then, there is no clear base 

 

Crap!

 

There is no no option for transparent bases, nor is there a non-base option.

 

However, with practice, the fivures arw completely posable, so anything you manage to run outside the print are is your own fault.  

 

Hmm, I think you can get no base or a bar to use on your own base.  for no base click the base type that is marked to unpick it just like removing any thing else.

[Scott Ruggels]

10 hours ago, tkdguy said:

Can you get Hero Forge miniatures without the bases? If not, is there an option for clear bases? I'm a fan of those.

 

My biggest beef with Pathfinder Pawns is the way many of them are cut. Too many figures lose part of the artwork. Suddenly, your warrior has a stick instead of an axe! That was a deal killer for me.

Yes you can make figured without bases, and that's how most people are importing them into Tabletop simulator. Examples:
https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D11985781/

 

https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D11985948/

 

https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D12139067/

 

https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D11986866/

 

Hope this helps.

[dmjalund]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is no no option for transparent bases, nor is there a non-base option.

This accusation is baseless!

[Duke Bushido]

As Scott pointed out, it is possible to get a baseless figure simply by de-selecting (which is done by re-selecting; go figure) the default base in the pictographic menu to the right of the builder.

 

Frankly, it had never occurred to me to even try that.   

 

Thanks again, Scott!

 

[tkdguy]

Thanks. I assume the company can print out the miniatures for me, since I don't actually have a 3-D printer. I don't currently plan to get a 3-D printed miniature at this time, but it's something to consider in the future.

[archer]

All your base are belong to us.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, tkdguy said:

Thanks. I assume the company can print out the miniatures for me, since I don't actually have a 3-D printer. I don't currently plan to get a 3-D printed miniature at this time, but it's something to consider in the future.

 

 

The minis I demoed (in both senses of the word) for the review were printed and shipped from Hero Forge-- well, from I-forget-what-company doing business as Shapeways doing business as Hero Forge.  They offer the minis in "basic plastic," "better plastic (black, and I have one coming in that option), colored plastic (which you have now seen), steel (why?!) and bronze.

 

They also offer  the STL files for 8 bucks (periodically sale priced at 4 bucks) if you want to print your own.

 

They specifically do _not_ accept outside STL files for printing, however.  The reason might be the nightmare of converting it to color or optional materials, or it might be simply having to "check" the files for problems-- I don't know.  Frankly, I _suspect_ the reason is this: 

 

 

1 hour ago, archer said:

All your base are belong to us.

 

 

Yes; they do.  Not just the base, but the whole character.

 

Read their TOS  (it's oppressive):  if you make a character with their service, it's their character.  At least, that manifestation of it is.

 

They can certainly make the argument that since they own the elements and the software that lets you rearrange those elements as you see fit that they own all possible combinations of those elements, too.

 

But they _don't_ make that argument.  They own the character, at least his image and any physical representation thereof, which you are "given permission to use for personal use only."  To be clear: they don't own his personality or his story or anything like that: they just own what he looks like.

 

 

For the bulk of you, it probably makes no difference.  For anyone who intends to publish something featuring that character, it's a special kind of duckstick maneuver (the kind that doesn't use a "d").

 

 

You have been warned.

[archer]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Read their TOS  (it's oppressive):  if you make a character with their service, it's their character.  At least, that manifestation of it is.

 

They can certainly make the argument that since they own the elements and the software that lets you rearrange those elements as you see fit that they own all possible combinations of those elements, too.

 

But they _don't_ make that argument.  They own the character, at least his image and any physical representation thereof, which you are "given permission to use for personal use only."  To be clear: they don't own his personality or his story or anything like that: they just own what he looks like.

 

For the bulk of you, it probably makes no difference.  For anyone who intends to publish something featuring that character, it's a special kind of duckstick maneuver (the kind that doesn't use a "d").

 

You have been warned.

 

That's...beyond oppressive.

 

That's the kind of thing that gets a business turned into lightly roasted cinders when the nerds finally rise up to their rightful place as rulers of the Earth.

[Duke Bushido]

5 minutes ago, archer said:

 

That's...beyond oppressive.

 

That's the kind of thing that gets a business turned into lightly roasted cinders when the nerds finally rise up to their rightful place as rulers of the Earth.

 

 

Eh...   it's the nature of the digital age.  When was the last time you found someone with a free service you could use to store photos and hotlink to them that didn't have all kinds of craziness in their TOS?

 

As far as the uprising--

 I'll wait and see what happens.  High school might have been over forty years ago, and college shortly after that, but I remember enough to know that nerds outnumbered the jocks, but the jocks were _way_ better with heavy sticks.  In the end, I think there's a balance that just keeps things going the way they are.

 

 

[tkdguy]

Ah, Shapeways is behind this. On another forum, I had a disagreement with the guy who runs it. I won't be ordering his stuff after all.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Eh...   it's the nature of the digital age.  When was the last time you found someone with a free service you could use to store photos and hotlink to them that didn't have all kinds of craziness in their TOS?

 

 

In this case, you're paying them $50 and permanent rights to your intellectual property in exchange for one copy of a tiny plastic figure.

[Duke Bushido]

13 minutes ago, archer said:

 

In this case, you're paying them $50 and permanent rights to your intellectual property in exchange for one copy of a tiny plastic figure.

 

Right.

 

Or you could give up your rights and eight bucks for an STL file that lets you print as many as you want.

 

Either way, though, your point is accurate.

[Scott Ruggels]

Here's a more thorough explanation of their TOS. basically they crafrted all the parts you are putting together, So they own the parts:

 

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2020/10/19/hero-forge-and-the-copyright-controversy-over-miniatures/

 

Hope this helps.

[archer]

9 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Here's a more thorough explanation of their TOS. basically they crafrted all the parts you are putting together, So they own the parts:

 

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2020/10/19/hero-forge-and-the-copyright-controversy-over-miniatures/

 

Hope this helps.

 

The problem that I have with it:

 

Say nine months from now you want to buy another copy of the exact same figure.

 

You put in all the parameters so that it turns out exactly the same as the first one.

 

You get a new pop-up notification.

 

You wouldn't be giving them $50 plus the intellectual rights to the figure in exchange for one copy of the figure this time because they ALREADY OWN the intellectual rights. So if they sold it for only $50, you would be buying the second copy at a really steep discount compared to the first.

 

So to keep their price for the second figure on par with the first one you bought, you will now have to pay $75 since you are buying not only the figure but access to their intellectual property.

 

< s >

Which is really still a pretty steep discount when you think about it because the intellectual rights to the figure was a large part of the payment for the first purchase.

< /s >

 

OK, they probably won't do that. But they would be well within their rights to do that because you've sold them the freaking right to do that.

[Duke Bushido]

16 hours ago, tkdguy said:

Ah, Shapeways is behind this. On another forum, I had a disagreement with the guy who runs it. I won't be ordering his stuff after all.

 

Well, since we are doing a review, would you care to shed any light on that?

 

It might be a deal-breaker for someone else, too.

[zslane]

This is almost like Crayola trying to claim ownership of any drawing their "tools" are used to create. Or Kinko's trying to claim ownership of anything printed off one of their printers.

 

I wonder how well such a TOS would actually hold up in court.

[Scott Ruggels]

19 hours ago, zslane said:

This is almost like Crayola trying to claim ownership of any drawing their "tools" are used to create. Or Kinko's trying to claim ownership of anything printed off one of their printers.

 

I wonder how well such a TOS would actually hold up in court.

 It's not.  The problem is there is a sculptor, working for Hero Forge, that has created the sculpts in a specific way to allow for scaling and posing, and the costume and prop elements that work within that same framework, that fit those  sculpted figures in such a way that they fit and work together. Each of those individual pieces of artwork have been created by the sculptor on the company dime for this service. Hero Forge (Shapeways) has created and owns those specific shapes. It basically becomes the "Fan art" problem, in that Batman is owned by ATT-Warner.  You cannot sell the likeness of Batman without a license from ATT-Warner. However, if you are at a convention, you can pay an artist to draw Batman for you, and that is a legal gray area that is often exploited at conventions. The customer is paying for a service, not the "product".

 

If you make your own figure from scratch or using high end 3D software (Z-Brush, Blender, or Maya) that is demonstrably different from the Hero Forge product (because the hero Forge product has a definite, chunky, identifiable art style) of a character, that character is yours, even if you mocked up one in Hero Forge to test the concept.

[zslane]

Hero Forge owns the sculpted pieces, yes, but not the character (concept) and its distinctive appearance. For example, Superman still belongs to DC even if you create a Hero Forge mini that looks exactly like him. That's because the character's "likeness" is owned by DC, and doesn't magically transfer to Hero Forge just because their pieces were used to produce a physical miniature figure of it. The same should apply to any character a customer creates and uses Hero Forge to produce a physical mini of it. In this sense, Hero Forge's sculpted pieces are like Crayola crayons used to "draw" a specific instance of a character created by someone other than Hero Forge.

[Scott Ruggels]

Crayons isn’t the proper analogy. Music sampling is. Remixes and sampled licks are often copyright claimed by the original artist, who often ends up with a share of the profits and a credit, or all of the profits depending on the particulars. The problem is that the products of the Hero Forge creator, by the nature of of their creation, cannot be “transformative” works, and as such are still made entirely from Hero Forge assets.
 

Until recently, LEGO, defended their bricks tenaciously, shutting down companies that infringed on their patents. You can do a lot with LEGO, but until the patents expired a few years ago, there was a good chance you would be sent a “cease and desist“ order of you made parts compatible with LEGO. For those big displays in shops in toy stores, the displays were paid for as a service to the artist making the display. 
 

so no, it’s not analogous to Crayola. The only way to extract oneself from the Hero Forge dilemma is to use the STL files as a template or heavily edited and modify the figure so that each of the separate assets used to create the figure are now recognizably different, and unique. 
 

As to questions of concept. Unless the character likeness existed before the Hero Forge mini was created, then the likeness could be claimed by Hero Forge. The work around would be to grab a screenshot or two, but never save the work or pay for a figure or file.