Skills With and Without Items

[Sveta8]

I've run into a conundrum and while I think I have my answer for how I'd handle it, I'd like to see how others would as well. 

Some skills have near necessary items built into them. Hacking without a interface, lockpicking without tools, driving without a vehicle is beyond difficult but not impossible. Supers, after all, are built upon doing incredible feats. 

 

While building the skill or item is easy enough, I'm curious how people interpret these design principles in use.  Do you consider the tools to be part of the skill?
Do you consider the skill to be knowledge of how to use the tools?

Do you consider the skill knowledge of how to perform the act, but tools a benefit to it?  

 

 

 

For example:

Phil the Player is wanting to build Bill the Burglar. Phil thinks Bill should be able to pick locks, and buys Lockpicking the skill. In game Phil has Bill try to pick a lock. Gilbert the GM, imposes a penalty for lacking the correct tools. Phil is confused and asked for clarification. Gilbert realizes the confusion, and waves the penalty to discuss it after the session. 

 

Afterward, Gilbert explains, "Bill has the skill Lockpicking. That means he knows how to pick locks, but without the right tools, it would be harder. Since Bill didn't have lockpicks, it was a harder check. I should have mentioned it, but it slipped my mind, so I waived it for now."
Phil says, "I thought that Lockpicking the skill meant you could use Lockpicks. That you couldn't try to without them. So, the fact that I had the skill means I have the tools to use it."

After a discussion, Phil realizes that he wants Bill to be better at Lockpicking and move past the issue, and offers a compromise. "I'll buy a Skill Level in Lockpicking for Bill, with the OIF Limitation as Lockpicks. That way, he has them on hand so we don't have to worry about this next time." 

 

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that having the skill imparts having the item to perform the skill barring something like a strip search or equivalent. Functionally, it's the SFX of how they perform the check. But, I'm curious how others think of it.

[Greywind]

I'm reminded of an episode of Remington Steele. Steele and Laura were trying to get in some place and the door was locked. Laura reaches into her purse and comes out with a set of lockpicks. Steele asks her for a hairpin. Which he then uses to unlock the door.

[Grailknight]

Lockpicks and such would generally be bought as equipment. So use resource points in a Heroic game and no charge in Supers. A Focused Skill Level would probably be some type of masterwork tools beyond the regular equipment specs and probably a Universal Focus also.

[Derek Hiemforth]

IMV, the character should be presumed to have necessary gear, of ordinary quality, for performing the skill.

 

If there's some in-world explanation for why they don't have the gear (for example, the burglar's lockpicks were taken away after a strip search or something), then they might be able to attempt the skill anyway (possibly at a penalty), either using alternate gear (e.g., a hairpin instead of lockpicks) or (in some cases, if it makes sense) with no gear at all.

 

If there's an in-world explanation for why they have gear that's better than ordinary quality (finer craftsmanship, magical properties, etc.), then that would normally be bought as a bonus to the skill.

 

So:

 

Substitute or no gear = Skill roll at penalty (if possible at all)

Gear of ordinary quality = Default, and normal skill roll

Extraordinary gear = Bonuses to skill roll

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is going to be one of those setting metarule things.

 

In a Champions game I just assume people have the stuff they need to do the job: you have lockpicking, then you have lock picks in your utility belt or whatever.  If I want to run a special scenario where you don't have that freebie stuff, I make it clear from the onset, but the default is you have what you need.

 

For other kinds of games, its going to vary by setting, genre, and "mood" of the game.  Is this ultra hardcore realistic, is this goofy fun, is this low tech, is this hard spy simulation?  In heroic games, the need for tools tends to be more notable than superheroic, because they're usually more gritty.

[unclevlad]

Professional skills in general require the tools of the trade to be usable.  There's some exceptions like PS: Singing or Dance, but it's largely the case.  

 

Some listed skills act a lot like PS's...electronics, lockpicking, computer programming...because the character is acting through a medium...a lockpick, a keyboard, various tools for electronics, rather than executing the skill directly, a la acrobatics, breakfall, conversation, etc.

 

Will the player have those tools?  Well...it kinda depends.  Lockpicks are readily concealable.  A keyboard isn't;  oh, sure, it might fit into a backpack, but on a stealth mission, the backpack itself would often be suspicious.  So I'd treat them a little differently.  On a stealth mission, it's probably fair for the GM to ask, "ok, you know you need a bunch of gear.  How do you plan to get this in?"  Or if the security in a given place is exceptionally tight.  "You know the security is Really Good at this lab.  How do you plan to sneak in your gear?"  

 

But if this isn't the case, then I treat it like Weapon Familiarity, at least in Champions.  If I buy an HKA, I don't need to buy WF with swords to use it.  If I buy Lockpicking, presuming I don't have a power that obviates the need for tools, I get the tools.  Skills can be hard to get full value for the points spent.  I absolutely don't want to discourage buying them by adding additional hoops to using them.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

IMV, the character should be presumed to have necessary gear, of ordinary quality, for performing the skill.

 

If there's some in-world explanation for why they don't have the gear (for example, the burglar's lockpicks were taken away after a strip search or something), then they might be able to attempt the skill anyway (possibly at a penalty), either using alternate gear (e.g., a hairpin instead of lockpicks) or (in some cases, if it makes sense) with no gear at all.

 

If there's an in-world explanation for why they have gear that's better than ordinary quality (finer craftsmanship, magical properties, etc.), then that would normally be bought as a bonus to the skill.

 

So:

 

Substitute or no gear = Skill roll at penalty (if possible at all)

Gear of ordinary quality = Default, and normal skill roll

Extraordinary gear = Bonuses to skill roll

 

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

This is going to be one of those setting metarule things.

 

 

 

 

 

Those two replies, together, sum up pretty much how I do it:

 

if you have the skill, you have the tools (within reason; you may just have access to the tools: a character with "Warp Drive Technician" probably isn't walking around with his Irrilium Calibration Spingle, as they weigh eighty pounds and are four meters long, but odds are he can scrounge one up easily anywhere that he might need to use the skill.

 

Characters with bonuses to the skill are welcome to define them as either 'being much better at the skill' or "having better equipment."  In general, though I _know_ it's not _exactly_ book legal (so don't bother pointing that out, please   ), I allow an OAF bonus on a skill level (one, _sometimes_ 2 in sci-fi or supers) to represent actually owning and amazingly full and high-quality tool set.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Come to think on it, a gimmick you sometimes see for a safecracker is...a stethoscope.  The notion was, the stethoscope picked up the sound of the tumbler clicking into place.  Alternately, I remember a few cases where some form of scope was used to observe the wheels/tumblers, for the same objective.  Keypads that require a combo have been vulnerable to sequence generators.  These'd all be examples of foci giving bonuses.  And from a roleplaying perspective, this would reward research..."what kinds of measures are we likely to face, and what kinds of tricks do we need to pack?"  

 

It's book legal to define skill bonuses as powers, and from there, it's rather easy to argue for limitations.  (I *love* alternate Desolid from APG.  One aspect I sometimes use is levels to Stealth and possibly Contortionist, linked to the Desolid...Stealth because you're lighter, Contortionist because your body's not rigid.)  I'd argue that OAF doesn't work;  O doesn't work if they can be concealed until their needed.  The act of e.g. lockpicking presumably has to be discreet.  A is largely the same.  It's only A when you're doing something that you can't do with others attacking you, or quite often, knowing that you're doing it at all.  

[dmjalund]

think a stethoscope is similar to Microscopic Hearing

[Fedifensor]

Buying a focus that gives a bonus to a skill can have a double benefit if it is also what is required by default to use the skill without penalty.  Like others have said, I assume the character has the necessary tools to perform a skill unless there is an in-game reason saying otherwise.

[LoneWolf]

Skills like lockpicking normally require some sort of tool.  For the most part a character that purchased the skill can be assumed to have the appropriate tool.  There will of course be some situations where they may not have the tool with them.   For example if the character was swimming in a pool they probably don’t have them with them.  An ordinary tool does not really need to be written up as an actual item.  

 

Depending on the campaign you might need to include it on the character sheet, but that would be more of a notation then an actual write up.  If the tool is going to give you some sort of benefit beyond the ability to make the skill roll at base level it should be written up.  In Pathfinder and other game these would be the equivalent of a set of masterwork tool.  The skill level with lockpicking through an OAF is a perfect example of this.  

 

In some cases the skill involves manipulating something.  In many cases the item to be manipulated provides everything needed to use the skill.  Combat Driving is a perfect example of this.  Some computers would also fall into this category.   Using computer programing to hack into a laptop in your possession does not require anything other than the laptop.  In other cases you may need something more.  Hacking into a server will usually require some sort of computer with access to the network the server is on.  Most servers do not have monitor and keyboards hook up, they are in a rack that even the network administrator remotes into.

 

So basically if a character has invested actual character points in a skill they should be assumed to have access to the tools necessary to use the skill without having to spend further points.   Obviously circumstances will alter this.  Just because I have PS plumper and access to the appropriate tools of the trade does not mean I am going to be lugging them around all the time.  Something small like lockpicks would be ok, but not a full set of plumbing tools including a 50’ snake.