Reversing the roll to hit

[Tasha]

You go after D&D players because they are the Majority of the RPG Market. Other systems have relatively small player bases. Mechanics make a huge difference in attracting new players and keeping them. I had my D&D group try to play Starfinder, and it was a bridge too far for them (Starfinder IS a huge mess). The easier it is to engage with the rules the more likely that the players will stick around.

The game and other Superhero games ARE attracting D&D players. D&D doesn't do Super well, and M&M is in many ways more complex than Hero. If we aren't careful, newer games with simplier character gen and play grab those players.

[Duke Bushido]

SAS was pretty straight-forward D and D mechanics under the D20 OGL.

 

It failed.   The majority of the D20 material was hot for a moment and disappeared.  People try D and D for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is "because it is D and D."  Some try it because it is RPG that you can still find in any bookstore or Sprawl Mart and because they have heard of it.

 

Those are the people to target: the ever-dwindling number of RPG- curious neophyte.  The person who has a bad experience with one roleplaying game- even if it is just disappointment- isn't likely interested in an experience that has been modified to more-closely recreate what he didn't like the first time.

 

Dont waste your tine with the guy who wants to play D and D.  Target the guy who wants to play an RPG and cant make up his mind or hasnt settled on something.  Seducing the guy who is happy with his game is just uncool.  "He could be happier!" 

 

Well, that may be.  He might also be miserable, and resent forever that thinf that isn't D and D, cementing him from ever becoming a fan. 

 

I dont like D and D; I just don't.  I will make jokes about it; I will make disoaraging remarks about it; I will cast it in the most unfavorable light I can in any private conversation.  But I won't do it in front of someone who is genuinely having a good time playing it.  As much as I don't like it, I am happy for them that they do.  I am not about trying to pry them away from something they like just because I think,they might like something else a lot more.  Of course, that may be a personality trait unique to me: I never tried to chase a married woman, either.

[schir1964]

The only reason I'm considering this is to make things easier for my kids (11 Years Old) who haven't played any pen and paper games.  My daughter especially has trouble with doing math in her head.

Also, I'm not the quickest at doing it myself, but I can rely on pre-generated/pre-calculated tables and programs to shore that up.

But I want to introduce them to the Hero System and hopefully have some fun Father Son/Daughter time with them.

 

That's why I snagged the Champions Begins once I found out what it was. Perfect timing.

 

So my situation is somewhat an edge case I think.

[Spence]

On 2/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, Tasha said:

The reason you should care about this is that it's hard to find players that will shift from D&D to other game systems. They aren't 'stupid', we should just be looking for ways to make the transition from D&D to Hero as easy as possible.

This what I don't understand. 

Most of the gamers I know don't play D&D anyway.

 

We mostly play:

Call of Cthulhu (roll high)

Trail of Cthulhu (roll high)

Nights Black Agents (roll high)

Fear Itself (roll high)

Star Trek Adventures (roll low)

Conan (roll low)

Actung! Cthulhu (roll low)

 

As yet no one seems to fall apart from any mind boggling confusion.

The actual issue we get from D&D retreads is their tendency to be murderhobo's and want to resolve everything by killing it and wanting loot. 

 

Most of the Champions superHero games get derailed because everyone wants to be a murderhobo (Deadpool) or the grim dark vigilante (Dark Knight/Batman, the killer version) instead of playing a superhero.

 

But grade school math has never be an issue.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

4 minutes ago, Spence said:

Most of the Champions superHero games get derailed because everyone wants to be a murderhobo (Deadpool) or the grim dark vigilante (Dark Knight/Batman, the killer version) instead of playing a superhero.

 

 

 

Sir, we are attempting to seduce d and d players.  It would behoove you to call them by their class names:

 

Deadrogue and Batpallidin.

 

 

 

[Tasha]

Nobody says that the difficulty is too hard. It just makes it easier for them to learn how combat flows.

That said. Everyone I know plays D&D of some sort or the other. They play other games, but even those tend to be D&D clones mapped to different genres. I have taught folk how to play Hero for decades. People just find it too complex esp character generation.

Not that this discussion will change a single thing in the game. At this point there will never be a new edition. The remaining fans will not abide with any changes to the rules. Figured Chars, is still something that causes fights 13 years later. The kind of changes that will make this appealing to modern gamers will never be made. At least not with the current owners of the IP.

[Grailknight]

10 hours ago, Tasha said:

Nobody says that the difficulty is too hard. It just makes it easier for them to learn how combat flows.

That said. Everyone I know plays D&D of some sort or the other. They play other games, but even those tend to be D&D clones mapped to different genres. I have taught folk how to play Hero for decades. People just find it too complex especially character generation.

Not that this discussion will change a single thing in the game. At this point there will never be a new edition. The remaining fans will not abide with any changes to the rules. Figured Chars, is still something that causes fights 13 years later. The kind of changes that will make this appealing to modern gamers will never be made. At least not with the current owners of the IP.

 

There is the forest you are searching for amongst all those trees.

 

HERO is complicated on the front end, once game play starts it is as simple as any other game, simpler than many.

 

Don't try to convince players with talk, put a copy of Champions or Fantasy Hero Complete down next to a Player's Handbook for Pathfinder or D&D Fifth Edition and do an honest comparison. HERO will lose on presentation, but complexity? I don't think so. 

 

Hero lacks two things. 

 

Number one is a consistent, unified and detailed setting. The CU is a mess. It has a good background and embraces every type of character and campaign but that quickly becomes it's biggest flaw.  It tries to please everyone at once and that prevents  it from having the depth to really explore the genre of any one campaign. The gap between characters who operate on the low end and the high end is untenable and it's attempts to make non-super authorities relevant  has led to some questionable choices in detailing military weapons.

 

The second and more important lack to me is the near complete lack of guidance and support for new GM's . Every project HERO starts to attract new players focuses on simplifying the game in a new introduction to players. Where's the advice for new GM's on how to balance power levels, how to set campaign metarules that customize the setting, that sets up rules for magic systems, or that finetune the interaction between the super and mundane worlds. Hero needs all that because that 1st level party in d20 will be pretty narrowly constrained on their options and the GM has time to grow with them but that starting hero group may be using the full gamut of the HERO rules. As part of this HERO needs to change it's philosophy on supplements. Create a new CU and then publish 2-4 adventures or mini-campaigns that use villains with a consistent power and skill level so  a solid baseline is exhibited throughout the universe.

 

Experienced GM's and players may want to change this up, but those are your core customers, they were going to buy anyway as long as your new system didn't alienate them. And that's the real risk of "making the game appealing to modern gamers". You run the risk of publishing 4th Edition D&D when the market wanted Pathfinder.

[Tasha]

19 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

SAS was pretty straight-forward D and D mechanics under the D20 OGL.

 

It failed.   The majority of the D20 material was hot for a moment and disappeared.  People try D and D for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is "because it is D and D."  Some try it because it is RPG that you can still find in any bookstore or Sprawl Mart and because they have heard of it.

 

Those are the people to target: the ever-dwindling number of RPG- curious neophyte.  The person who has a bad experience with one roleplaying game- even if it is just disappointment- isn't likely interested in an experience that has been modified to more-closely recreate what he didn't like the first time.

 

Dont waste your tine with the guy who wants to play D and D.  Target the guy who wants to play an RPG and cant make up his mind or hasnt settled on something.  Seducing the guy who is happy with his game is just uncool.  "He could be happier!" 

 

Well, that may be.  He might also be miserable, and resent forever that thinf that isn't D and D, cementing him from ever becoming a fan. 

 

I dont like D and D; I just don't.  I will make jokes about it; I will make disoaraging remarks about it; I will cast it in the most unfavorable light I can in any private conversation.  But I won't do it in front of someone who is genuinely having a good time playing it.  As much as I don't like it, I am happy for them that they do.  I am not about trying to pry them away from something they like just because I think,they might like something else a lot more.  Of course, that may be a personality trait unique to me: I never tried to chase a married woman, either.

The RPG Crash of the 00s was due to the huge glut of games, many that were just shovelware. Totally trash. It destroyed the market. Burying many good games under piles of garbage. It crashed under the weight of that, and the fact that D&D 3.0 became more unbalanced with every supplement released. Which is the real reason they released D&D 3.5 (also to weasel out from the D20/OGL license).

SAS was originally it's own system. The D20 version was added during the D20 Boom. There were also other reasons that one disappeared. Including the ownership of that company doing things that POed his writers, artists and money people.

You don't go after the HAPPY D&D player. They are unlikely to try other games. There are PLENTY of D&D players who play the game because it's what they know. There are other D&D Players who are unhappy with the system but keep playing because it's what they know and what others in their area play. The "Curious Neophyte" is going to play D&D more often than not. D&D is the brand name that everyone knows. It's the game that is on shelves at their favorite superstore and/or book store.

Hero's biggest player base in the 80s was disgruntled AD&D players. People who were modding the system to be less annoying. Very few RPG neophytes ever bought the system, unless someone introduced them to it yet. There are still disgruntled D&D players, who are looking for other genre games to play. Who might be interesed in playing a system that can model Action movies very well, and also do Marvel Style Superheroes well.

[Tasha]

18 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

There is the forest you are searching for amongst all those trees.

 

HERO is complicated on the front end, once game play starts it is as simple as any other game, simpler than many.

 

Don't try to convince players with talk, put a copy of Champions or Fantasy Hero Complete down next to a Player's Handbook for Pathfinder or D&D Fifth Edition and do an honest comparison. HERO will lose on presentation, but complexity? I don't think so. 

 

Hero lacks two things. 

 

Number one is a consistent, unified and detailed setting. The CU is a mess. It has a good background and embraces every type of character and campaign but that quickly becomes it's biggest flaw.  It tries to please everyone at once and that prevents  it from having the depth to really explore the genre of any one campaign. The gap between characters who operate on the low end and the high end is untenable and it's attempts to make non-super authorities relevant  has led to some questionable choices in detailing military weapons.

 

The second and more important lack to me is the near complete lack of guidance and support for new GM's . Every project HERO starts to attract new players focuses on simplifying the game in a new introduction to players. Where's the advice for new GM's on how to balance power levels, how to set campaign metarules that customize the setting, that sets up rules for magic systems, or that finetune the interaction between the super and mundane worlds. Hero needs all that because that 1st level party in d20 will be pretty narrowly constrained on their options and the GM has time to grow with them but that starting hero group may be using the full gamut of the HERO rules. As part of this HERO needs to change it's philosophy on supplements. Create a new CU and then publish 2-4 adventures or mini-campaigns that use villains with a consistent power and skill level so  a solid baseline is exhibited throughout the universe.

 

Experienced GM's and players may want to change this up, but those are your core customers, they were going to buy anyway as long as your new system didn't alienate them. And that's the real risk of "making the game appealing to modern gamers". You run the risk of publishing 4th Edition D&D when the market wanted Pathfinder.

 
This is another instance where Hero Fans have shot the game in the foot. You set down a Hero System book ie Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. All you have done is handed a player two books with lots of flexibility, and like you said no guidelines for how to create characters. Even less given to GMs to create their own campaigns. Though admittedly there is GM support with NPC/ Villain books.

I would love to see something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path, with character generation that is simplified. Like with the Champions Character Gen Cards. Perhaps with each character type given a section, with Characteristics, prebuilt powers, Perks, Skill lists, Complications. Basically an On Rails version of character generation. With lots of customization, pared down, so it isn't anywhere near the full toolkit. Include options that players can buy with exp.

Also, decide an average power level for the characters (ie DC10, Dex 20, Spd 5 etc), and have Villains and NPCs built to challenge that power level.

Don't include the full power/abilities toolkit. Include with the PDFs, a supplement book that shows everything in their full Hero System Glory.

Again, this will never happen, nobody will put the cash forward create such a book. Old fans will complain that the complexity isn't in the main book etc.

I hope that Champions Begins will bring new people to the game.

The problem with this idea

[Grailknight]

4 minutes ago, Tasha said:

 
This is another instance where Hero Fans have shot the game in the foot. You set down a Hero System book ie Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. All you have done is handed a player two books with lots of flexibility, and like you said no guidelines for how to create characters. Even less given to GMs to create their own campaigns. Though admittedly there is GM support with NPC/ Villain books.

I would love to see something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path, with character generation that is simplified. Like with the Champions Character Gen Cards. Perhaps with each character type given a section, with Characteristics, prebuilt powers, Perks, Skill lists, Complications. Basically an On Rails version of character generation. With lots of customization, pared down, so it isn't anywhere near the full toolkit. Include options that players can buy with exp.

Also, decide an average power level for the characters (ie DC10, Dex 20, Spd 5 etc), and have Villains and NPCs built to challenge that power level.

Don't include the full power/abilities toolkit. Include with the PDFs, a supplement book that shows everything in their full Hero System Glory.

Again, this will never happen, nobody will put the cash forward create such a book. Old fans will complain that the complexity isn't in the main book etc.

I hope that Champions Begins will bring new people to the game.

The problem with this idea

 

So I see we are thinking along similar paths but one thing confuses me. Why do you say this is the fault of Hero Fans?

 

I've seen many instances of posters here asking for modules and adventures. Instead what we've gotten are numerous settings with a ton of general information and timelines. But few to no guidelines about customizing and developing the setting  and not enough detail to run a campaign as presented. We get a few sample starting characters and then a campaign end boss that it would take years of play for the characters to qualify as speed bumps for let alone defeat in a triumphant final battle. 

 

Even the two published supplement books for  6E do nothing much for GM's beside present optional rules for Character creation and Powers. They're good books for someone like me who can run HERO without any reference and do 90% of Character generation in my head ( I can't do other games but our D&D and Rolemaster's GM could do it for their games.) but they're just more information without context for a new GM.

 

But's that's not on HERO fans. The game would have reached this point faster than it did if we hadn't purchased those books as loyally as we did. But either we didn't  clearly express ourselves in large enough numbers or perhaps HERO didn't management wasn't interested in or not confident in their ability to produce those products. For what ever reason, they weren't made and here we are.  

[Tasha]

You have to realize that the fandom has been having this argument for over a decade now. This isn't the first time this group of people have talked about this.

I say that it's the fans, because EVERYTIME someone suggests a good change. Every grognard will decloak and tell why we shouldn't change a single thing. Which IMHO is why we haven't seen larger changes to the system. I see this with pretty much every system with an established fanbase. This kind of backlash makes companies frightened to make any substantial changes to their games.

 

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Tasha said:

The RPG Crash of the 00s was due to the huge glut of games, many that were just shovelware. Totally trash. It destroyed the market. Burying many good games under piles of garbage. It crashed under the weight of that, and the fact that D&D 3.0 became more unbalanced with every supplement released. Which is the real reason they released D&D 3.5 (also to weasel out from the D20/OGL license).

SAS was originally it's own system. The D20 version was added during the D20 Boom. There were also other reasons that one disappeared. Including the ownership of that company doing things that POed his writers, artists and money people.

You don't go after the HAPPY D&D player. They are unlikely to try other games. There are PLENTY of D&D players who play the game because it's what they know. There are other D&D Players who are unhappy with the system but keep playing because it's what they know and what others in their area play. The "Curious Neophyte" is going to play D&D more often than not. D&D is the brand name that everyone knows. It's the game that is on shelves at their favorite superstore and/or book store.

Hero's biggest player base in the 80s was disgruntled AD&D players. People who were modding the system to be less annoying. Very few RPG neophytes ever bought the system, unless someone introduced them to it yet. There are still disgruntled D&D players, who are looking for other genre games to play. Who might be interesed in playing a system that can model Action movies very well, and also do Marvel Style Superheroes well.

 

 

I do not disagree with anything you said.  In fact, we agree that the new player and the disgruntled D and D player are more likely to be interested in trying not-D and D.  The disgruntled player was not happy with his experience.  The neophyte hasn't tried anything yet.

 

We agree that lots of D and D -like games and games with D and D like mechanics have failed.

 

In both of these cases, there is little to support for the idea the that changing HERO mechanics to be more similar to D and D is a necessary step or even a useful step to attract new customers.

 

There is a bit here to support the idea that a simpler, easier-to-pick-up-and-learn game with an attractive setting wired in would be useful, but the past thirty years have demonstrated that this is the opposite of where the writers want to go, and regular discussions on this board demonstrate that simplification is of next-to-no interest for the average long-term fan.

[Tasha]

Of no interest to many fans who comment on these forums. The game has been bleeding old fans for a decade or so. With many of them finding supers systems that are easier to play and create characters in.

The cross section of players here are the ones who stayed, and are generally the folks who will stay until the bitter end. So isn't an accurate sampling of the fanbase.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Again, we agree.

 

I play 2e.  If I remember correctly, you play 5e, or 5er, I think?

 

Actually, I know _lots_ of people who play 2e (and a couple that play 5 un-e ).  Everyone I have ever taught to play plays 2e      Over the years, I have given away _easily_ thirty copies of 2e (which is why I am always on the prowl for copies at or under the 20 dollar mark), though I suppose younger people would be happy with a PDF (it's not my favorite).   I gave my own son a nigh-pristine 4e.  he has opened it, looked at the pictures, read some of the "new stuff," and that's about it.  He plays 2e, too.

 

I have plugged every new edition since 4e (I missed 3e completely, and only managed to acquire it maybe ten years or so ago), like a fan-- This is the latest and greatest version!  I have even pulled a few things from 4e and backward-ized them into 2e.  A few people picked up 4e on that recommendation.  One picked up 5e (I don't remember if it was revised or not); one picked up Sidekick (not revised), and _several_ picked up Sidekick revised.  Absolutely no one I have shown it to has picked up 6e.  You can tell their first impressions by how far their eyes bug out.  I had one guy pick up Champions Complete, but in his own words, it was "too dense."  

 

At any rate, I, too, believe that this board is a-typical of who the fans are or what they want.  I am routinely disappointed that the author of the new rules sets doesn't see it that way.   

 

I know I will stay until the bitter end, because I _did_ stay until the bitter end.  For everything in the works, compared to other games on the market, HERO is functionally dead.  The printed books are rare now, and most of the new material is through a creative license to let players make content with the agreement that it is formatted just so and doesn't include--- I don't even remember.  Setting books.  You can make setting books.  Character books, as long as the characters are new.

 

And even if we decide to argue that HERO isn't dead (and technically-speaking, it isn't), there hasn't been any support for 2e since the publication of Mugshots 2 in 1992  (yes; that was a 2e compatible book that had been delayed nearly seven years by the time it was published).  It seems fair to say that 2e is dead, if nothing else, but I'm still plugging away! 

 

 

[steriaca]

Sounds like an excuse for a new power advantage

 

Auto Hit

 

The character with this power advantage will automatically hit unless the victim can make a roll of DCV + 3d6 - Attacker's OCV - 11. The victim only gets to roll if he is somehow aware of the attack or is taking basic defense stances. This is a +1 Advantage, with an additional +1 Advantage if the power also has an area of effect, Indirect, and/or Invisible Power Effects advantage, or is a mental power.

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

The second and more important lack to me is the near complete lack of guidance and support for new GM's . Every project HERO starts to attract new players focuses on simplifying the game in a new introduction to players. Where's the advice for new GM's on how to balance power levels, how to set campaign metarules that customize the setting, that sets up rules for magic systems, or that finetune the interaction between the super and mundane worlds. Hero needs all that because that 1st level party in d20 will be pretty narrowly constrained on their options and the GM has time to grow with them but that starting hero group may be using the full gamut of the HERO rules. As part of this HERO needs to change it's philosophy on supplements. Create a new CU and then publish 2-4 adventures or mini-campaigns that use villains with a consistent power and skill level so  a solid baseline is exhibited throughout the universe.

 

It doesn't help that it allows such an enormous range of options.  It becomes extremely confusing rapidly.  

 

Plus, I think there's a common disconnect between comics/supers fiction, and translation into rules...because the material allows things that become insanely expensive and/or powerful when it has to be converted to numbers.

 

I think you make a good point that "starting" characters in Hero are closer to mid-level, seasoned characters in most systems...not just D&D, which is notorious for starting out as wimps.  V:tM starting chars are wimps...unless the GM gives a LOT of bonus starting points.  L5R...skills were just not good initially.  Shadowrun...well, some of that was gonna depend on build priorities.  So...yeah, stronger guidance would help.  Start at a MUCH lower power level than the overall world level...maybe, if the world level is 500-700 (with 700 being seriously rare) then the PCs maybe start at 250, with reasonably fast XP accumulation for a while.  Or 350 if you prefer.  I've also advocated for a very streamlined build process...FEW!!! limitations allowed.  Green Lantern's Power Ring isn't a focus.  If some character types can't be done, like the power armor guy?  Oh well.  Or...sure, you can buy it, but again...you don't get to take even a 1/4 limitation on a couple hundred points.  That's one of the issues that makes a big mess for any Hero game...raw character points don't tell the whole story.

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 2/10/2022 at 6:34 PM, schir1964 said:

The only reason I'm considering this is to make things easier for my kids (11 Years Old) who haven't played any pen and paper games.  My daughter especially has trouble with doing math in her head.

Also, I'm not the quickest at doing it myself, but I can rely on pre-generated/pre-calculated tables and programs to shore that up.

But I want to introduce them to the Hero System and hopefully have some fun Father Son/Daughter time with them.

 

That's why I snagged the Champions Begins once I found out what it was. Perfect timing.

 

So my situation is somewhat an edge case I think.

 

 

Edge case, not an edge case, "I want to give it a shot;"  "I just like it better"-   every single one of these is a valid reason to make absolutely any change you want, to any game, period.

 

And I will totally support amyone doing absolutely anything (except writing an even longer set of official rules.    ) simply because they prefer to do it that way.

 

I know you have come in and out of this board, but surely at some point you have seen Christopher Taylor and me disagree vehemently about the importance or value of making a particular change or constructing a particular build.

 

So we have disagreed?  So what?  I will never not one-hundred percent support his decision to make those changes or build a thing the way he wants it built. 

 

You want to make a change to a mechanic?  Go for it!  It hasn't been too-terribly-many days ago that I posted a home brew mechanic of my own for skill v skill resolution.  If I may repeat myself, at the time I posted it I specifically said that I did not post it because I thought it was something everyone should adopt, and I genuinely did not care if _anyone_ adopted it.  Still don't.  Sure, I hope anyone that does try it finds it worth the effort of having tried, but that's a given: I don't want to think I caused someone to lose some of the pleasure of how they play. 

 

When I speak negatively on the topic of switching to roll high, I am not speaking about the doing itself-  I think I even offered an interpretation between two supporters and a suggestion on dealing with edge case "skill level over 18" situations right in this thread.

 

What I speak against is the idea that switching one single mechanic so that the goal of a 3d6 roll is akin to that of a d20 roll will somehow make the HERO System overall more palatable to D and D players.

 

If APG 3 demonstrates official rules for leveling up and calculating large damage as something like "75 plus 1d6," we might be edging into "familiar to D and D" country, but so long as STUN and Body and Recovery and the tracking of END remain in the system, the similarity isn't even superficial.

 

Dude, if you want to change the to-hit mechanic so that you roll an actual d20, go for it!  I will one-hundred-percent support you.  Just keep in mind that doing so will make "to hit" the only part of the game that is remotely like D and D. 

 

 

[Tasha]

I currently play 6e as my preference.

I have been playing since 2e Champions released. Playing every edition since then. Spent a TON of time with Fantasy Hero 1e, played and ran a ton of Danger International, Champions 3e. We moved on to 4e and played that for years (Heck, I have a first printing 4e Champions signed by George McDonald). I played Fuzion for a bit, Then 5e and 5er. Settling into 6e when it shipped. I remember downloading the PDFs while I was at Blizzcon that year. It took so long to get printed copies, I printed out both books on my Color laser Printer and had them bound at Office Depot.

I have been part of the online community since the Hero System group on AOL appeared.

I disagree with your arguments against roll high. I am honestly sick of arguing the same stuff that I have been arguing for years. Again, there is ZERO point to doing this. There isn't going to be another edition of the game. So any changes are house rules. Do what you like with your game.

[Duke Bushido]

Out of curiosity:

 

Where did you get the complete Fuzion rules?  Did you pull the missing bits from another game (I pulled them from BGC and .... bah-- some war-themed game that didn't call itself Fuzion, but it ws Fuzion), or were they published somewhere as a complete stand alone?  I would love to find a stand-alone set I could point at when people mention having had a hard time playing New Millennium.

 

 

[steriaca]

Fusion? I guess you have to piece it together from Champions Fusion, Mekton Fusion, Bubblegum Crisis, DragonBall Z RPG, Usagi Yojimbo RPG, and a few others. I know DBZ and UY use Fusion Light rules.

[Tasha]

53 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Out of curiosity:

 

Where did you get the complete Fuzion rules?  Did you pull the missing bits from another game (I pulled them from BGC and .... bah-- some war-themed game that didn't call itself Fuzion, but it ws Fuzion), or where they published somewhere as a complete stand alone?  I would love to find a stand-alone set I could point at when people mention having had a hard time playing New Millennium.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.

44 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Fusion? I guess you have to piece it together from Champions Fusion, Mekton Fusion, Bubblegum Crisis, DragonBall Z RPG, Usagi Yojimbo RPG, and a few others. I know DBZ and UY use Fusion Light rules.

Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

[Tasha]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I think you make a good point that "starting" characters in Hero are closer to mid-level, seasoned characters in most systems...not just D&D, which is notorious for starting out as wimps.  V:tM starting chars are wimps...unless the GM gives a LOT of bonus starting points.  L5R...skills were just not good initially.  Shadowrun...well, some of that was gonna depend on build priorities.  So...yeah, stronger guidance would help.  Start at a MUCH lower power level than the overall world level...maybe, if the world level is 500-700 (with 700 being seriously rare) then the PCs maybe start at 250, with reasonably fast XP accumulation for a while.  Or 350 if you prefer.  I've also advocated for a very streamlined build process...FEW!!! limitations allowed.  Green Lantern's Power Ring isn't a focus.  If some character types can't be done, like the power armor guy?  Oh well.  Or...sure, you can buy it, but again...you don't get to take even a 1/4 limitation on a couple hundred points.  That's one of the issues that makes a big mess for any Hero game...raw character points don't tell the whole story.

 

 

 

 

IMHO this is the best part of any Hero System game. The default power levels are not for total neophyte characters. They are generally competent. Which is something I bring to as many games as possible.

I guess you are talking 4e-5er point limits? We always played with 350 pt characters (yes back in 4e days), Throwing DC12 for most things. In 6e I like 450-500 pt characters with DC 12 attacks.

For new players I would probably start with ~400 pt characters with CV based in Characteristics (No skill levels), all powers without Limitations, no advantages. Keep the characters VERY simple. IMHO it seems like Champions Begins did a GREAT Job of creating characters for Newbie players. Also, with characters getting complexity added after certain thresholds. I wish we had this years ago.

[Tasha]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

Fusion? I guess you have to piece it together from Champions Fusion, Mekton Fusion, Bubblegum Crisis, DragonBall Z RPG, Usagi Yojimbo RPG, and a few others. I know DBZ and UY use Fusion Light rules.

Fuzion (with a z), was created for CNM. It is called that because they fused Hero system and Interlock together to create a new system. They just had the "Champions superpowers module added to the system" IMHO it's biggest issue was that they didn't anticipate that people would want the full Hero Superpowers toolkit. Which left a bad taste for 4e Hero players, who seemed to be willing to try it. But ended up angry that they couldn't build everything they could in 4e.

Which left many in the fandom automatically hating any mechanics that took anything from Fuzion.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks for that, Tasha!

 

After years of hearing it bashed, I thought I was the only person who was okay with New Millennium.   

 

you are quite correctly: it was possibly the most accessible rules and setting for any edition.  I don't know much about the west coast (except that Scott lives there- and I reckon you do, too- and my first GM was from there), but I am quite happy with still traveling to Bay City (the CNM one; I have never read the 5e).

 

thanks again.

 

 

 

[Spence]

14 hours ago, Tasha said:

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website.

 

Wow, while I knew that the complete (playable) rules were out there somewhere, I never knew about the website having a copy. 

Just for curiosity, what year was this?  My access to the internet was extremely sporadic up until the 2000's until I got out of the Navy.  In the 90's I spent a lot of time in areas that didn't have "internet" access unless it was for official use and shared by pretty much every activity that had official need. 

There are a LOT of things I apparently missed out on in the tabletop RPG world