Reversing the roll to hit

[Spence]

16 hours ago, Tasha said:

I am honestly sick of arguing the same stuff that I have been arguing for years. Again, there is ZERO point to doing this.

 

This is a bummer.  I really really hate trying to post via a phone.  It takes FOREVER to type out a message with that little bitty letter pad and then it up and doesn't post.  I had laboriously tapped out an epic to showcase my brilliance and it apparently never actually posted. 

 

But I guess it is for the best.  I was beating a  and it looks like Tasha isn't actually interested.

 

So I will move on.  Great thread though. 

 

At least in my opinion. 

[Duke Bushido]

It has been far more civil and friendly than such discussions in the past; there is no doubt.

 

The thing is- and the reason that I don't get mad at people for thinking this is a possible solution for garnering players-- is that I completely understand the desire to see more HERO gamers, and to see the company thrive-- I would like that myself; what fan wouldn't?

 

Problematically, HERO shot itself in the foot so far as attracting new players with the _massive_ core rules and their general aversion to creating one-book complete games.

 

Lucha Hero was great, but very niche.  Western HERO was also excellent.  Fantasy HERO Complete and Champions Complete were one-book games, but the requirement for both genres to include the full build rules (ie, Powers) made them, in the words of a friend, "impenetrably dense" to the casual gamer or light reader.  Well done; don't doubt that for a second, but very dense and dry.  MHI could have been a massive hit, but then the IP owner screwed his own popularity, and anyone who bought a license ended up holding the bag (please: let's not discuss that here.  Like "this will get them off their tractors-- uh, away from D and D," it has been rehashed until there is nothing left but hard feelings.  I do feel really bad for the investment HERO made into it, though).

 

Do I think one-book games would bring more people to the fold?  Not in droves; certainly not.  But I tend to think that they are, by their nature, less off-putting than is "read these twelve hundred pages, get familiar with the mechanics, and then we will go over the genre-specific stuff from Splatbook X, and then build a world, some,locations, an economy, and finally some characters; see you in two weeks!" has done so far.

 

As always, though, these are just the opinions of one old guy who watched his favorite version of the game die thirty years ago.

[SCUBA Hero]

On 2/11/2022 at 12:24 AM, Tasha said:

Everyone I know plays D&D of some sort or the other. They play other games, but even those tend to be D&D clones mapped to different genres. I have taught folk how to play Hero for decades. People just find it too complex esp character generation.

 

Yes, most of Hero System's complexity is in character generation.  I don't find the actual play that complex.

 

And building a first-level D&D character is fairly simple in terms of choices for the player to make, compared to a Hero System character.  Then again, most Hero System characters are not "first-level", this is (IMHO) both a draw for experienced players and a barrier to new players.  Even a higher-level D&D character is still simpler in choices (okay, next level... spend skill points here, roll for hit points, new feat, stat improvement).  I know players that take great enjoyment in planning their character's path all the way to level 20 when the character is first created.  I get that enjoyment.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 11:54 AM, Tasha said:

 
This is another instance where Hero Fans have shot the game in the foot. You set down a Hero System book ie Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. All you have done is handed a player two books with lots of flexibility, and like you said no guidelines for how to create characters. Even less given to GMs to create their own campaigns. Though admittedly there is GM support with NPC/ Villain books.

I would love to see something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path, with character generation that is simplified. Like with the Champions Character Gen Cards. Perhaps with each character type given a section, with Characteristics, prebuilt powers, Perks, Skill lists, Complications. Basically an On Rails version of character generation. With lots of customization, pared down, so it isn't anywhere near the full toolkit. Include options that players can buy with exp.

Also, decide an average power level for the characters (ie DC10, Dex 20, Spd 5 etc), and have Villains and NPCs built to challenge that power level.

Don't include the full power/abilities toolkit. Include with the PDFs, a supplement book that shows everything in their full Hero System Glory.

 

I think that would be an *excellent* way to bring in more new players, including D&D players.  👍

 

There are (again, IMHO) Hero books that are closer to that ideal than Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete.  Narosia.  Widening Gyre.  Western Hero.  Not at that ideal, but closer.  Single books that can be used to run a campaign, with the setting and appropriate power levels.

 

Although for a supers RPG that is more D&D-like, Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0) is closer than Hero System will ever be.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think you nailed it with this:  "Basically an On Rails version of character generation."  That's a basic difference between D&D and Hero System.  Players will, in general, prefer either a more constrained or more open character generation method (IMHO).

 

[Spence]

39 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

It has been far more civil and friendly than such discussions in the past; there is no doubt.

 

The thing is- and the reason that I don't get mad at people for thinking this is a possible solution for garnering players is that I completely understand the desire to see more HERO gamers, and to see the company thrive-- I would like that myself; what fan wouldn't?

 

Problematically, HERO shot itself in the foot so far as attracting new players with the _massive_ core rules and their general aversion to creating one-book complete games.

 

Lucha Hero was great, but very niche.  Western HERO was also excellent.  Fantasy HERO Comolete and Champions Complete were one-book games, but the requirement for both genres to include the full build rules (ie, Powers) made them, in the words of a friend, "impenetrably dense" to the casual gamer of light reader.  Well done; don't doubt that for a second, but very dense and dry.  MHI could have been a massive hit, but then the IP owner screwed his own popularity, and anyone who bought a license ended up holding the bag (please: let's not discuss that here.  Like "this will get them off their tractors-- uh, away from D and D," it has been rehashed until there is nothing left but hard feelings.  I do feel really bad for the investment HERO made into it, though.

 

Do I think one-book games would bring more people to the fold?  Not in droves; certainly not.  But I tend to think that they are, by their nature, less off-putting than is "read these twelve hundred pages, bet familiar with the mechanics, and then we will go over the genre-specific stuff from Splat book X, and then build a world, some,locations, an economy, and finally some characters; see you in two weeks!" has done so far.

 

As always, though, these are just the opinions of one old guy who watched his favorite version of the game die thirty years ago.

 

1st off the Hero Boards have always been fairly civil and friendly, but it really became my favorite place for discussions when I discovered the ignore function.  There are not very many toxic individuals here and they are eliminated easily.  For me anyone that feels the need to inject snide political comments in their

non-NGD posts goes straight to toxic land.  I don't really spend any time on the NGD so I rally don't care about that.  But taking a dump in the RPG forums is out.

 

2nd.  While I do agree in general with most of your comments here.  There is one major concept I completely disagree with.

Hero System 6th Edition, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Hero System 5th Edition Revised and so on are NOT role playing games. 

 

Spence: Yes Igor, please raise the drawbridge and bar the gates....

Igor: But we should flee!

Spence: It is too late Igor, I can already see the torches and pitchforks...

 

Then what are they, you may ask?

 

It is simple, they are a system that a gamer can use to build a role playing game. 

 

A role playing game can be picked up and played.  Hero, in pretty much all its incarnations cannot.  Instead it can be used by a gamer to put together something that then can be used to be played. 

 

I am currently in the middle of prepping a Fantasy Hero game. 

 

I am STILL in the middle of prepping a Fantasy Hero game.

 

But I was able to discover, buy, read, design scenarios and run them for actual playable RPG's in just a few days. 

 

Even most Hero supplements are not actually RPG's.  The Champions universe has a lots of stuff, but lacks a coherent playable setting of campaign. 

I fully understand that the primary overwhelming ideology was the belief that potential customers would suffer massive catastrophic death if anyone even hinted at a pre-designed campaign or anything that could even distantly be construed as establishing a concise character creation guide.  

 

So while Hero is my favorite RPG related system hands down.  

It is not an actual RPG that can actually be played "out of the box". 

 

No I do not have a solution, but I do not have to have one to see the problem. Just like I do not have to be a Chef to identify the cause of food poisoning.

 

 

 

 

 

[schir1964]

It appears to me there two different ideas competing to solve the issue of the barrier for new players (at least it seems like it to me but I could be completely wrong).

 

The first has to do with streamlining certain mechanics that have been core to the system since the beginning (as far I can tell from these posts).

Making these mechanics more unified / consistent with each other would lower the barrier to those who are looking for a new or better game system.

 

The second has to do with presenting a complete game universe whole cloth so that only those mechanics relevant to that universe are included.

Making such a product would lower the barrier to those who are looking for a new or better game system.

 

The second one is less problematic since you simply are taking the mechanics that currently exist and skinning them or modifying/replacing them as needed to create a cohesive game universe.

It benefits the GM and Players alike since it can be used like other game systems that exist.

The amount of work to create such a product is the major obstacle.

 

The first one faces the problem of established mechanics be replaced with new ones (which would become the established mechanics going forward).

The benefit is to make some aspects easier for anyone who doing math on the fly is considered less fun during play.

 

Now personally, I don't have a problem with either of these being done.

Both of these would make things easier for me as a GM.

It would certainly make things easier for my kids.

 

However, concerning the first idea above, I am not qualified to suggest that changing the core mechanics would be beneficial for the company and would have the desired effect of pulling in enough new players to make it worth it.

It might but then again it might not. I don't know.

 

Either of these ideas would have to be fully embraced by the current owners in order to have a lasting impact though.

 

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Remind me to come back and rep you when I've refilled. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Spence said:

 

1st off the Hero Boards have always been fairly civil and friendly, but it really became my favorite place for discussions when I discovered the ignore function.  There are not very many toxic individuals here and they are eliminated easily.  For me anyone that feels the need to inject snide political comments in their

non-NGD posts goes straight to toxic land.  I don't really spend any time on the NGD so I rally don't care about that.  But taking a dump in the RPG forums is out.

 

In my entire history here, I have used the ignore function only twice.  I won't name names (I _proudly_ will not name names; opting to choose the Ignore feature seems the most responsible, adult option available), though there is a third I have waffled on for several years.  Fortunately, that one only seems to come about when that one is particularly bored in 3d-land, so it hasn't happened.

 

Why only twice?  Well, I have found that most people-- even when you disagree with them _vehemently_-- really _do_ have valid points, and reading them (and deciding to ignore them "manually," if you will) can inspire some interesting thoughts about your own beliefs. The only two people I have ever ignored have in common a gratingly haughty "holier than thou" type attitude and no issue resorting to insult and derision _immediately_ at any sign of disagreement.  (Can I say one person?  I think the first person got banned or something; I have not see that person here in at least a couple of years now....)

 

I don't do much in NGD beyond a couple of the games, the joke thread, and the funny pictures thread myself.  I go out of my way to not even _open_ the politics thread unless I have found an amusing image that is more suited for it than for the images threads.  Even then, I make a hard effort to read _nothing_, even the post above the little box I am working in.  After all, I like you folks.  Why do I want to go out of my way to get angry with you?  That's just silly, and entirely my fault for looking, right? 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Spence said:

2nd.  While I do agree in general with most of your comments here.  There is one major concept I completely disagree with.

Hero System 6th Edition, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Hero System 5th Edition Revised and so on are NOT role playing games. 

 

Clarification:

 

I said that I pushed 5 and 6e at people who asked me about the game we were playing.  This was a different point in the conversation.  I did _not_ suggest that either of those things was a complete game in and of themselves.  I will go so far as to say that even the 4e "HERO System" was not a complete game.  BBB was, since it had a book at the end to add some flavor and give character examples, a couple of plots, etc.

 

I _did_ state that CC and FHC were complete games, but allow me a moment to explain why:

 

while they are extremely dense (a necessity to reduce page and word count, but it does make them a bit of a slog to read through if you're brand-new to HERO), they are every bit as complete as were both the original Champions first edition and (arguably) the second edition Champions.  (I say "arguably," because the case can be made the the Viper's Nest module made 2e somehow "more complete."  (fun fact I don't think I have ever shared:  I have never played Viper's Nest.  Hell, I didn't even _read_ it until I had realized that I had never read it-- twenty-some years after having purchased my first 2e !    )

 

Do I feel they could have been more complete?

 

Certainly.  Well, at leaset FHC could have been.  It could have been a one-book game by simply eliminating build data (the "powers" section, essentially), picking one or possibly two magic systems-- maybe even three (let's say "druidic," "Holy," and "Shamanistic" just for fun), describing the differences between them (akin to the 4e "spell colleges."  I never liked the 4e colleges, but that's a different discussion, I think) and then laying out-- let's say fifty actual completely-built spells, costed in "units" (another fun fact: I have always, and will always, refer to dice of effect and steps up or down a chart as "Levels" everywhere but on this board.  For example: "But you get nine extra PD because you have three levels of Density Increase").  As players advanced, they could spend their XP on more "levels" of each spell, or buy new spells.  The build for the spells / potions / whatever didn't even need to be included to make it a complete "one book" game.  This would have left some room for a couple of sample characters and possibly even some very light exposition to suggest a world. Certainly a half-page for each of perhaps five, six races.

 

Granted, this would have tied it into a set of assumptions, but that seems to be comforting to a lot of folks (witness what happened with Traveller, one of the most successful games of all time), and reduces the amount of time and confusion lost to building a simple spell.     

 

 

However----

 

let's look at CC:

 

CC _almost_ needs all the powers build stuff.  Certainly one could have instead put in "Blast" and a the list of powers, two sentence descriptions of how they work, the cost, and let it ride.  The game would have still been complete and more easily picked up.  Champions is completely playable without Advantages, Limitations, and Frameworks.  Power levels are lower for the costs, but it _is_ completely playable.

 

I think what happened here is that there was a desire to give Champions a great shot-- create something like its original roots-- at being a single thin book that gives a nice deep dive into the workings of the HERO System, and of course, Champions is-- at least once was, if the magazine reviews were to be believed-- the greatest superhero game ever designed because of the unique ability to create precisely the hero you want.

 

Skipping back a moment:

 

I think FHC took a similar "here's the whole system, even if the game would be easier to play if we had just ticked a lot of these boxes for you" approach because-- well, Fantasy has always been the largest sector of the RPG fandom.  FHC had the potential to expose to the entire system people who would never dream of picking up a superhero game.  That's just my thoughts, and be aware that they are based on nothing at all beyond what seems the most logical path that leads to what we ended up with.

 

Now back to CC:

 

Champions is totally playable without Power Modifiers of any kind.  I _know_ it is, because my first two characters had none at all!  It wasn't that I didn't grasp them (there were a couple that did take a bit of thinking on), but because I was in a hurry to throw together a character and get playing!      I have met two brand-new GMs over they years who weren't using the modifiers because they hadn't really gotten it all sussed out, but wanted to go ahead and play, so they did.  I assume as they played and gained experience with the system, they added the complexity; I don't know.

 

The most important thing with CC is that of the two, superheroes have the least amount of need for a setting.  The vast majority of superhero adventures are set in "today."  They are set in "right now" and, for whatever reason, New York.     Okay, I _halfway_ kid about that, but New York seems to have _more_ supers per square inch than any other place in the universe.  Don't know New York?  Well, neither do your players!  Just think "craploads of stupid-tall buildings" and run with it.  Of the two "complete" books, CC suffered far less for not having any sort of background or setting.

 

But even then, it _was_ every bit as complete as the very first Champions game, and I don't think acknowledging that is misleading.  FHC?  Well, it's playable, but yes: the aspiring GM will have far more work ahead of him than will the aspiring CC GM.  Still, that book, too, is every bit as complete as the original Champions book.  Not what I would have liked to have seen, but with solid determination, playable as-is with only what is presented in the book.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Spence said:

I am currently in the middle of prepping a Fantasy Hero game. 

 

I am STILL in the middle of prepping a Fantasy Hero game.

 

You are preaching to the choir, Sir.  And frankly, I think _this_-- more than any mechanic or similarity or difference between HERO and not-HERO-- is the crux of the problem with recruiting new-to-HERO players and GMS.  it is not complexity; it is not which way you read the dice; it is not the lack of cards or d4 or or critical successes or exploding dice or anything else.  It is the complete lack of a game!  There is no game in there!

 

Remember what the books cost?  Seems like the two big books were in the fifty bucks each range; then Skills, MA, Tech, APG (1 and 2) and I am probably forgetting a few---  what did they go for?   Yes; detractors from this will say "you only need the first two," but I will counter that with the well-documented fact that Duke is the only person in the entire fandom who does _not_ think MA is a vital, necessary, un-get-by-without-it-able book, making it, at least to the fandom, the third absolute core rule book.

 

So what did you spend on those three?  Paperback?  A hundred and thirty bucks?  Hardback?  Two-something?

 

And you DID NOT GET AN ACTUAL GAME, did you?!

 

THIS-- _THIS ONE THING_-- more than any other possible change that could be made to mechanics-- is the hands-down absolute largest barrier to getting new people interested.  The argument can be made that a world can be found with a splatbook.

 

You still need to shell out that hundred and fifty to use that book, don't you?   And once you have that worldbook, you can populate with.... what?  Pick up one of the bestiaries!  Can it be argued that at least the blue one becomes "core rules" when a GM would like to build a fantasy campaign?  Want a dragon?  There is a separate bestiary specifically for dragons, available only in softcover (it's very pretty) and I paid FIFTY BUCKS for it (gift for my daughter a few years back; she digs dragons).  At least with FHC, I can squeeze something out by skipping Core 1 and Core 2, but now I need FHC, MA, Bestiary, and possibly Dragons.  Still no game, though, because I don't have a world!

 

So FHC, MA, Bestiary (I've decided to skip dragons for this world), and-- Crap.  I really wanted to say Tuala Morn, but that's 5e.  Yes; perfectly compatible, but I'm going somewhere here.    How about Atlantean Age?  Was that 6e?  Let me run to the Store real quick. BRB!  Okay, let's say we pick up Christopher's Jolrhos Field Guide (the PDF is fifteen bucks.  I hope there's a paper copy, because I missed the release news, and I really, really prefer paper).  Even then, we have to sort of _hope_ it's an actual setting book and not some sort of accessory (remember: I am a new guy, and haven't been following Christopher's notes ).  Now If I take the advice of FHC and decide I can get more flavor out of Fantasy HERO, then choke on the sixty-dollar price tag on the only paper copy on e-Bay.....  Okay, we'll pick that up later.

 

Right now we have FHC, MA, Bestiary, a world book ( we hope), and....   races?  How do we do races?  Well, maybe there's something in the Bestiary.  Maybe there's something in the world book.  Maybe.  Maybe i need...  Crap!  What do I need?  (Fantasy HERO and a couple of NPC books, actually, but we don't know that yet).

 

 

And _now_-- and only now-- do we have what most players today would call a complete game.

 

 

It is positively ridiculous to think that this is going to pull in waves and waves of new customers.

 

One Book Games.  I have said it for years now: One Book Games.   They don't have to be big or complex, just playable out of the box.

 

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Spence said:

I fully understand that the primary overwhelming ideology was the belief that potential customers would suffer massive catastrophic death if anyone even hinted at a pre-designed campaign or anything that could even distantly be construed as establishing a concise character creation guide.  

 

I say the following with nothing-- and I mean _nothing_!-- but love and respect for everyone on this board (except the two d&*ks I have on ignore):

 

In my own experience-- and I confess that my access to real-world gaming culture is very limited because of my geographical location-- is that only the people on this board feel that way, and I will reiterate how much I think HERO shot itself in the throat by assuming that these folks-- the most hardcore of HERO fandom-- were somehow the most representative of potential HERO customers.  It makes me very depressed.     Not that it isn't important to provide something for the long-time fans, but not at the expense of attracting new blood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, schir1964 said:

It appears to me there two different ideas competing to solve the issue of the barrier for new players (at least it seems like it to me but I could be completely wrong).

 

The first has to do with streamlining certain mechanics that have been core to the system since the beginning (as far I can tell from these posts).

Making these mechanics more unified / consistent with each other would lower the barrier to those who are looking for a new or better game system.

 

I don't have an opinion on that, honestly, simply because the mechanics currently _are_ kind of grouped:  Damage Dice, mental Powers, Skill Checks, Movement (with EDM being something of an odd-man-out there).   There are corner-cases, probably, that I can't think of right now, as it's getting on toward bedtime here, but I think that's something you find in any game.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, schir1964 said:

 

The second has to do with presenting a complete game universe whole cloth so that only those mechanics relevant to that universe are included.

Making such a product would lower the barrier to those who are looking for a new or better game system.

 

I agree.  One Book Games.

 

Champions.

Espionage

Justice, Inc

Fantasy HERO

Robot Warriors

Danger, International

Star HEROPS238

Lucha HERO

MHI

 

 

It _seems_ to work.  But in all these years (the newest game in that list is a 3e publication), we have added only four more tiles:  Lucha HERO (which was going-in not expected to be a huge hit, and was a labor of love by the author.  I loved it, but I understand that it is a niche sort of thing  ).   The next one was tanked by the creator of the licensed IP.  PS 238 was a great showing of an all-in-one superhero universe (though I thought the property was a bit weak).  Christopher's all-in-one Western HERO is wonderful, but at this point, the HERO fandom has shrunk to a point that I don't see it becoming a huge hit across the market, and of course: young folks aren't into westerns the way they once where.....

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, schir1964 said:

The second one is less problematic since you simply are taking the mechanics that currently exist and skinning them or modifying/replacing them as needed to create a cohesive game universe.

It benefits the GM and Players alike since it can be used like other game systems that exist.

 

 

And that's essentially what the one-book games do: nail down the variables, and give you just the stuff relevant to that particular setting.  The full HERO System can certainly handle that, and there is considerable discussion in the current rules sets about doing just that to create a game.

 

However, it refuses to actually do it; it requires that you do it so that it can maintain its appeal as the ultimate universal toolkit.   In its desire to maintain the highest possible appeal to everyone, they have created a situation where there isn't enough flavor to appeal to anyone (outside of us diehards, that is).

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Duke Bushido
added in PS238 to the "one book games" list

[Tasha]

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else. The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

THIS is where IMHO the fandom has shot the game in the foot. Longstanding Hero System fans demand that every game have the full toolkit available. Which means that every book gives you a bigger toolbox. Even the Fantasy World supplements are toolboxes.

PS everyone is really nice. In the past I have gotten into epic arguments with folk. It never got to the point of name calling etc. The few people who couldn't handle that were ejected by Dan.

[Joe Walsh]

If we were looking for basic a model for a Hero System 1 book rpg, we could do worse than PS238.

 

The way the book opens with setting info, then sticks to simple writeups, is great.

 

The rules section is cut down nicely, with the skills, powers, etc. lists just what's needed for the setting. A reasonable number of pre-built superpowers and gadgets are included, too. Writeups of everything keep it simple and straightforward.

 

All in 180 pages.

 

It needs an adventure, but otherwise a book like PS238 but for a setting built expressly for a popular subgenre of supers (rather than a marginal IP) seems like it could work well for a lot of people as an entry point to the system.

 

Edited to add:

I like the idea of simplifying further. Just stick to CV and MCV, no Skill Levels, etc. and it could be great for those curious to try something new w/o a major commitment.

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Do I think one-book games would bring more people to the fold?  Not in droves; certainly not.  But I tend to think that they are, by their nature, less off-putting than is "read these twelve hundred pages, bet familiar with the mechanics, and then we will go over the genre-specific stuff from Splat book X, and then build a world, some,locations, an economy, and finally some characters; see you in two weeks!" has done so far.

 

As always, though, these are just the opinions of one old guy who watched his favorite version of the game die thirty years ago.

 

Hero has tied itself to "create anything you want, for any game you want - it's all here in this (ese) single (two) enormous volume(s)" for a long time.  It seems like a great concept. But it has not sold. It is clearly not what the market wants. D&D and Pathfinder, with their "here's a few options, and here's some template characters with even those few choices at L1 made for you, now start playing - we'll publish buckets of new options you can buy later" have proven that.

 

Now, back in the day, we bought 64 - 80 page books and filled in the blanks on our own. I will suggest those days are also done.  But we don't need massive tomes of rules and options right out of the gate.  We need something playable right out of the gate.

 

Many years ago, Hero and D&D both concluded that adventures don't sell.  D&D created Dungeon Magazines to sell fan-produced content and fill that niche.  But Paizo proved that the market for adventures came back.  But not the little modules of yesteryear that you plug into your existing game - full-blown campaigns, even almost-independent RPGs, in a series.  Hero never got over "adventures don't sell".

 

16 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

The more I think about it, the more I think you nailed it with this:  "Basically an On Rails version of character generation."  That's a basic difference between D&D and Hero System.  Players will, in general, prefer either a more constrained or more open character generation method (IMHO).

 

 

Hero could set itself apart and still sell.   Publish that "on rails game".  Players happy with that experience can stay on the rails. Do you want to customize your game?  Then buy the system books and you can customize your game.  D&D has tried "race creation"/"character class creation" books, but without the core system behind their design (HINT: there isn't one, just a few basic guidelines and a lot of gut feel, which is how we get broken options) they didn't work out so well.   Hero has that core system, but it does not need to be front and centre to publish a game.

 

Give players a dozen or so template Supers, with a few choices to be made, and some more they can add with experience.   Give them some examples with all choices made. 

 

Let the game begin!  With an intro scenario and setting that, ideally lead onto an Adventure Path series.  Hark back to the old 2e Hero model that every scenario also provides some new rules or options that can be adopted on a broader scale, perhaps.

 

Then publish splatbooks and more scenarios based.  And publish the full system for those desiring to customize or even design their own game.

 

15 hours ago, Spence said:

2nd.  While I do agree in general with most of your comments here.  There is one major concept I completely disagree with.

Hero System 6th Edition, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Hero System 5th Edition Revised and so on are NOT role playing games. 

 

Spence: Yes Igor, please raise the drawbridge and bar the gates....

Igor: But we should flee!

Spence: It is too late Igor, I can already see the torches and pitchforks...

 

Then what are they, you may ask?

 

It is simple, they are a system that a gamer can use to build a role playing game.

 

 

100%.  Now, let's take this one step further.  At 1e to 3ed, Hero published independent, standalone games.  The rules were similar, but not identical.  Hero sold.  Of course, so did a lot of other RPGs.

 

The hobby contracted.   Hero published 4e, all the rules in one place, consistent across genres.  But it was published with the Champions game tucked away in the back (BBB) and other games reliant on the same rules were published.  It was a hybrid model between "system" and "games".  It sold, but the hobby then really contracted, and they had issues with publishers, etc.

 

Then we got 5e/6e.  Hero doubled down on the "here is the system, build your own games" model. That was, in hindsight, a losing gamble. Standalone games continue to sell.  Hero System, placing system first, genre second and game never, did not sell. SOLUTION: Double down again on a 6e that has even more "system" and still no "game".

 

This doesn't cry out for a 7e. It cries out for games built with 6e rules.  A Supers game with a set list of power constructs and an Adventure Path out of the gate.  Want more?  Buy this game and show us we should publish more.  Or dive deep and get the system rules to custom-build to your heart's content. A Fantasy game with a defined setting and magic system and an Adventure Path out of the gate. Want more?  We'll publish it if people buy it. Want a different spell/race/ability/magic system/setting/?  Either we publish a game that appeals, or you can build your own with the full system rules.

 

The "system first" experiment was bold and had merit.  It failed. It is long past time to accept that and move on.

 

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I said that I pushed 5 and 6e at people who asked me about the game we were playing.  This was a different point in the conversation.  I did _not_ suggest that either of those things was a complete game in and of themselves.  I will go so far as to say that even the 4e "HERO System" was not a complete game.  BBB was, since it had a book at the end to add some flavor and give character examples, a couple of plots, etc.

 

I _did_ state that CC and FHC were complete games, but allow me a moment to explain why:

 

while they are extremely dense (a necessity to reduce page and word count, but it does make them a bit of a slog to read through if you're brand-new to HERO), they are every bit as complete as were both the original Champions first edition and (arguably) the second edition Champions.  (I say "arguably," because the case can be made the the Viper's Nest module made 2e somehow "more complete."  (fun fact I don't think I have ever shared:  I have never played Viper's Nest.  Hell, I didn't even _read_ it until I had realized that I had never read it-- twenty-some years after having purchased my first 2e !    )

 

Do I feel they could have been more complete?

 

Certainly.  Well, at least FHC could have been. 

********************************************

let's look at CC:

 

CC _almost_ needs all the powers build stuff.  Certainly one could have instead put in "Blast" and a the list of powers, two sentence descriptions of how they work, the cost, and let it ride.  The game would have still been complete and more easily picked up.  Champions is completely playable without Advantages, Limitations, and Frameworks.  Power levels are lower for the costs, but it _is_ completely playable.

 

I think what happened here is that there was a desire to give Champions a great shot-- create something like its original roots-- at being a single thin book that gives a nice deep dive into the workings of the HERO System, and of course, Champions is-- at least once was, if the magazine reviews were to be believed-- the greatest superhero game ever designed because of the unique ability to create precisely the hero you want.

 

This highlights that different genres need different approaches, hence one book games.  The Supers setting can be New York City, London or Paris, or your home town.  You don't need a new setting.  We can introduce trappings of the setting in scenarios and splatbooks, if the demand is out there.  We need the ability to build Supers as diverse as the source material provides.

 

Fantasy needs a Fantasy setting driving its magic systems. It doesn't need to be "every fantasy setting", it needs to pick one.  Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are great franchises.  They are not compatible.  Pick a setting, pick magic systems, set the dials and let's play THAT game!

 

11 hours ago, Tasha said:

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else. The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

 

This comes down to "what is a complete game?"  The D&D setting is not all that developed in any core rules I ever read.  It branches out into various published settings, whether directly published or gradually discovered (and designed) over the course of published adventures.  Looking WAY back to the D&D Blue Book, it was a "complete game" IMO.  What did it have?  A few races (human, dwarf, elf, halfling) and classes (fighter, magic user, cleric and thief, choices constrained based on race), enough choices and growth potential to make it to third level, a small (not even mapped) town and a tower outside town where the players could undertake their first exploration and adventure.

 

Imagine fleshing that out to a modern-size game book instead of a 64 - 80 page stapled booklet.  That would allow for a few more choices, add in skills and feats, a mapped-out, populated town and a more fleshed out adventure.

 

Want more?

 

Splatbooks of new races, classes, feats, higher-level options, etc. are easily envisioned.   Adventure paths and setting books will take you beyond that one small town and its haunted tower.

 

Later, when you have a taste of the game and its base mechanics.

 

Comparable for Supers, we need more focus on longer-term villains, and perhaps other supporting cast, but we don't need the same depth of setting explanation (I don't know what a Glaive-Guisarme looks like, but you don't need to explain what an iPad is).  And we can start with a small starting adventure in Campaign City, then grow the city, residents and villains behind the scenes over an adventure path.

 

I will suggest the game is "complete in one book" if, using just that book, we can have characters created and be running an adventure with only the resources provided.  If we have to create the magic system, or the setting basics needed to start, or the first adventure or two, it is not "complete".

[Duke Bushido]

32 minutes ago, GM Joe said:

PS238 seems to be the DOJ-era product closest to the type of 1-book RPG the game needs.

 

The way the book opens with setting info, then sticks to simple writeups, is great.

 

The rules section is cut down nicely, with the skills, powers, etc. lists just what's needed for the setting. A reasonable number of pre-built gadgets are included, too.

 

A book like that but for a popular subgenre of supers (rather than a marginal IP) seems like it could work well for a lot of people as an entry point to the system.

 

 

Thanks, Joe!
 

In my downward spiral toward sleep, I had forgotten PS238.

 

I will have to edit that back into the list above immediately!
 

 

I think we should stress "_could_ work well."

 

DC Heroes (and to a lesser extent, Batman, both by Mayfair, if I recall) were wildly successful, and certain editions of DC Heroes are still sought after today.  

 

TSR's Marvel Superheroes caught fire immediately solely because of the licensed properties, but even a revision couldn't save it for long-term popularity. 

 

11 hours ago, Tasha said:

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else.

 

You are correct, of course: there was precious little in any of these games with regard to building a campaign or a world.  I did note, however, that these games were all at least as 'complete' as the first two editions of Champions (and possibly the third edition: the "Campaign Book" in 3e was a single extended adventure with little in it not related to the scenarios it contained).  When we all bought those books, we may have wished for more, but we never doubted that they were completely playable as-is.   I don't know who said it, but some years ago I stumbled across a Traveller blog discussing a similar topic that is quite dear to me: the growth of Traveller-- what it has become versus what Mark Miller conceived and prefers, and what the fans demanded it become.  I won't bore anyone with more details about an entirely different game, but the blogger offered a quote that summed up the entire thing quite nicely:  "The standards have changed.  People don't have the time, or perhaps the desire, to imagine anymore."

 

Certainly, some genres _need_ more setting info than do others.  Science Fiction is something of an example of this: whereas supers are 'right here; right now,' and we are all as familiar with the here and now as we are likely to ever be, supers needs very little outside of an example of a normal person and a couple of supers so that players and GMs may scale their earliest builds, Sci-Fi is playing in a world yet-to-come.  Are there millions of planets?  Hundreds?  Two?  Do we move amongst the stars quickly, or in generational ships?  What's the upper limit of technology-- communications, weapons, defenses, terraforming.  What is the government like at the place the game starts?  Different people will want different amounts of this, just as some people will need or want none of it.

 

Fantasy, though-- in Fantasy, you are playing in a land that never, ever was (unless you consider Arthurian to be fantasy more than >ahem< "historical" or "period."  (I suppose that depends on where you stand on Merlin and 'strange women in lakes handing out swords'   .)  That takes a bit more: which fantasy standards are you using, for one.  Are there races other than human?  It goes on and on.  Still, as a genre, it is perhaps the most explored in fiction (right after Adam Sandler movies, I think), and I expect that anyone interested in picking up a book such as FHC will already have some wonderful ideas of his own from which to draw, and a glut of outside inspiration he has already consumed.  Because of this, with the admission that there should have been-- just like with Champions-- a couple of "normal people" and a couple of powerful adventurers and a few pre-made spells would have helped new players to scale their first few characters until they settled on the level they preferred.  Even at that, though, I find, compared to the original Champions books that we did not doubt were complete games, that FHC was just as complete as Champions was.  The original FHC was just as complete as well: swap out "magic" for "powers" and they were nearly the same book, reskinned and renaming several major elements (the SFX / mechanics separation demonstrated in real life!     )

 

"The standards have changed...", I think.  There are lots and lots of potential reasons why, but ultimately, people demand more of a game than they ever did before.  To be fair, they _always_ demanded more.  That's why D and D currently has more books that I have a hope of reading before I die even if I were to stop here mid-sentence and start reading.  It's why Traveller expanded beyond a generic system for space adventures of any kind and into the Third Imperium and beyond (man, that beyond was a mistake, but again: just my opinion. Or, more succinctly: MegaTraveller sssstttaaaaaannnnkkkkk!!!!      ). 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Tasha said:

The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

 

Agreed, but I will need a bit of help (no; I am not teasing you: while I did enjoy CNM, and played it for three or four years before moving back to 2e, I honestly don't remember the answer to this question):  was that campaign part of the initial rules book, or did you have to buy the two additional books?  I remember needing those books to get more of the rules (which at the time I thought was a marketing blunder of epic proportions, particularly when even after having them all, we still had to crib stuff from BGC to make it fluid), and I have stated above that I really liked the Bay City setting (so much so that even today, Bay City is part of my universe, situated forty-four miles west of Campaign City, on the shores of Lake Campaign.  ).  To date, it remains the _only_ published setting book I have ever used.

 

Sorry:  without extraneous distraction:  was the campaign contained in the original book?  I genuinely don't remember with any degree of certainty.  I know there were a couple of villains in there (did anyone _ever_ figure out just where Grond's extra arms actually attached to his body?    ), which again: an example of a normal character (which, in Hero, sort of defaults to the blank character sheet-- or rather, it _did_.  6e took that way from us, too, since a blank sheet is now straight zeroes), a powerful character, and a relatively "normal adventurer or adversary" are, at least to me, very important.  I don't need many, but one of each helps establish a scale.

 

 

I would like to step back and make an observation.  I prefer, out of courtesy, to ask "if you will permit," but as this board is a 'say your thing and run' format, I will instead ask that you bear in mind that I mean no derision and, as is well-documented all over this board-- I _do not_ sarcasm:

 

I am detecting a common sentiment in many of your replies.  For clarification, so that we can better understand each other's position, I would like to ask "do you feel that a fleshed-out world or setting is important to qualify a game as 'complete?'  If you do not feel a fleshed-out world is necessary to make a complete game, please disregard the follow up question.  If you do find it critical, what level of detail do you prefer, what is acceptable, and what is your 'absolute lowest acceptable' threshold to meet the requirements?

 

Secondly, do you feel a pre-packaged adventure is necessary to make a game complete?  If so, do you require or prefer a full-on multi-arc campaign, a multi-session story arc (presumably start to finish, but not necessarily), a meaty scenario, or a handful of "seeds?"  Feel free to prefer more than one; this is an exercise in understanding your preferences on the subject. 

 

In the interest of sharing positions, I will happily answer the questions for myself:

 

I _prefer_ a small amount of setting, at least in fantasy and in what I will call "niche" genres such as cyberpunk, steampunk, dieselpunk, or urban fantasy.  I do not call them 'niche' to deride them, but because they are subsets of larger genres with a lot of leeway in definition, and so I would prefer to have some sort of hint as to how to build for the themes presented.  In all likelihood, we will wander into our own groove within three or four adventures anyway.

 

I don't need information on government or nobility or such unless one of the prime themes of the game is staying right here, where we are, forever.  If crime and punishment is different from the norms, give me a paragraph on that.    Other than that, give me one or two examples of "normals," "typical adventurer class characters / foes," and "powerful, end-of-campaign" level adversaries.  I can fill in from there, while tailoring for the group at hand.  I only need to know about currency and exchange rates if things cost money, in which case a short list of things and prices is quite helpful.  Thinking about it, I am probably going to make up exchange rates on the fly rather than stop and math up regional lists, so just a list of things and prices.   

 

A sample or two of player races (again: a normal, a PC-level character, and a powerful one, though the powerful one is not as important as a normal and a PC-level one) and some suggestions on who and what the race is, in case someone wants to play one or I need to use one as an NPC.  Even then: I don't need this if the race is a well-known stereotype (elves!  Elves _everywhere_!  And Scottish Dwarves!  When and where and why did that happen?!   )

 

Adventures is a bit....   well, that varies from genre to genre.  Fantasy and Sci-Fi have tropes, but given the niches and ranges of power levels even with the genre, a two short scenarios covering two radically different situations or one meaty scenario covering both seems ideal, but....  well, I just admited that I owned Viper's Nest for twenty years or so before I ever actually read it--- which opens another can of worms:

 

I hated it.  I mean I really did not like it.  My first thought was "a dungeon crawl?!  In spandex?"  Sure, it was a bit more than that, but the main goal seemed to be going through the Nest and clearing it, etc.

 

I do like a short list of ideas ("seeds," as the cool kids call them), but here is the thing about all of this:

 

I am almost certainly not going to use them.  No; I don't mean that in any negative way.  I like to _see_ them, and sometimes to read them, simply because it gives some clue as to what the author(s) saw as typical interaction with the world in their mind.  They give hints toward motivations, society, and even locations sometimes, and power levels (any adventure that suggests a handful of PCs take out an entire battalion gives you a really good idea of what PCs should be capable of, right?), but I don't typically run them, ever.

 

 

11 hours ago, Tasha said:

THIS is where IMHO the fandom has shot the game in the foot. Longstanding Hero System fans demand that every game have the full toolkit available. Which means that every book gives you a bigger toolbox. Even the Fantasy World supplements are toolboxes.

 

 

You will never hear me disagree with this, even though on this board, it tends to be a very unpopular opinion. I am not going to scold you for saying it, because I say it _a lot_;  I simply want to warn you that you will end up having to defend this almost every time you say it out loud.  (Believe me; I've been there _a lot_.    )

 

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Tasha said:

PS everyone is really nice. In the past I have gotten into epic arguments with folk. It never got to the point of name calling etc. The few people who couldn't handle that were ejected by Dan.

 

 

I have to concur.  This has been a rather pleasant way to enjoy a cup of coffee the last couple of days.   I see Hugh has replied while I was typing.  I am quite anxious to hear his thoughts on this.

 

have fun, Tasha!

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

31 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are great franchises.  They are not compatible. 

 

 

I do not think I will ever be able to thank you enough for the dozen or so hilarious vignettes that leapt to mind upon reading that.           

 

You have said several things here I would like to hear more about, I really have to get a few errands run.

 

 

You folks have fun!

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

24 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Adventures is a bit....   well, that varies from genre to genre.  Fantasy and Sci-Fi have tropes, but given the niches and ranges of power levels even with the genre, a two short scenarios covering two radically different situations or one meaty scenario covering both seems ideal, but....  well, I just admited that I owned Viper's Nest for twenty years or so before I ever actually read it--- which opens another can of worms:

 

I hated it.  I mean I really did not like it.  My first thought was "a dungeon crawl?!  In spandex?"  Sure, it was a bit more than that, but the main goal seemed to be going through the Nest and clearing it, etc.

 

I do like a short list of ideas ("seeds," as the cool kids call them), but here is the thing about all of this:

 

I am almost certainly not going to use them.  No; I don't mean that in any negative way.  I like to _see_ them, and sometimes to read them, simply because it gives some clue as to what the author(s) saw as typical interaction with the world in their mind.  They give hints toward motivations, society, and even locations sometimes, and power levels (any adventure that suggests a handful of PCs take out an entire battalion gives you a really good idea of what PCs should be capable of, right?), but I don't typically run them, ever.

 

 

I think this highlights an issue with the Board trying to figure out how to attract "new players".  Do we mean "new players willing to try out Hero with an existing group" or "new players and GMs who learn the game on their own"?  In my view, we need the latter, and attracting the former is an added benefit.  A brand-new playing group needs that starting adventure, ready to play. Ideally, it has been designed to demonstrate various rules, perhaps with different encounters or steps in the adventure focusing on a very few rules at a time to create a staged learning environment.

 

Experienced gamers tend not to need a sample adventure to run from whole cloth (although, with other constraints on one's time, they are still very valuable to many experienced gamers too).  The newbies need an adventure to run, which also hopefully teaches some practical lessons in adventure design for the GM as it goes along, especially if designed for new GMs and gaming groups.

[steriaca]

How did we drift from 'altered way to hit a target' to 'attract new players'? I kinda agree that we need what is basically a solid worldbook. Yes, comic books are the world outside your window, but how does the addition of superheros change what is outside those windows?

[Hugh Neilson]

The perception was that "roll low" is counter intuitive, deterring new players.

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

Hello, Hugh!  

 

Thanks for joining in!

 

I don't know how much more will be gleaned: I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject-- well, that's not quite true.  I have re-stated my own opinions related to the exact topics of "what might attract new players."  Several other points have been brought up or alluded to, but I don't know that the time will ever be right (or available) to chase every single one of those down and address them. 

 

You make an interesting point here:

On 2/13/2022 at 11:17 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think this highlights an issue with the Board trying to figure out how to attract "new players".  Do we mean "new players willing to try out Hero with an existing group" or "new players and GMs who learn the game on their own"? 

 

 

 

and I don't think it has ever been addressed in any of these discussions.  On the chance that you are opinion shopping, I will offer mine:

 

We need new players and new GMs willing to pick up and learn this game.  New blood-- new customers.  One to keep the game alive, and one to maybe one day keep the company alive.  Eh-- I am a product of a capitalist environment, I suppose.  I don't _like_ it, but it's where I came from: it's not instinctive to separate the product from the producer.  I'm working on it, but it's still not instinctive. 

 

At any rate, I don't think a few new players to existing tables is going to help matters.  The bulk of current HERO players seem to be long-time players, and all seem to have gravitated more toward the minigames of building every detail of the universe, or every detail of a magic system, or every possible permutation of published characters--

 

that is, they have fallen in love with the math itself, sometimes to the detriment of the game.  They have taken the minutiae of the rules and now occupy themselves by spending long discussions and pages of writing to iron out those tiny details----

 

Crud.  How's the best way to say this?   Let me try this:

 

I don't think it is going to be helpful in the long run to have new players attracted to the game system (because we all agree, I think, that there is no actual game here as it is presented) only to have them drink from the very well that poisoned the game.  It's counter-productive.

 

I think we need new play groups of new people using complete games extracted from the system.  I think those systems should bear simple indications that they were built using a larger, more complicated system, and invite them to check out the entire thing, if they are interested.  I _also_ think that those same informative blurbs should clearly point out that (assuming the game is complete) the entire Encyclopedia HEROica is _not_ required to play the game.  I honestly think the system itself should be soft-sold.  That is, don't put a lot of effort into pulling people straight into the overload that the System has become.  Let them play the game; let them enjoy the game.  Let them, in their own time, decide "I wonder what I can learn from the whole kit and kaboodle?" on their own, without any push toward it.  That's what I want to say: point it out, but don't push towards it.

 

If a game proves popular enough, write supplements _for that game_.  NOT for the HERO System, not compatible with Game X, but specifically for Game X itself.  If you know the HERO system, then you already _know_ it's compatible with it.  If you don't know the HERO System, but you _do_ know Game X, then you don't _care_ if it's compatible with HERO. If you already have the HERO System, you might not even need or want it, but you will know it's compatible because it says "Powered by HERO."  Setting _expansions_ as opposed to setting books: I accept that I am the odd man out and that most people today want the first book to include some strong samples of setting.  I cut my teeth on games like D and D and Traveller and others of the era that had no setting out of the box.  (Champions, for example  )   I know: considering what they have grown into, people today have a hard time imagining it, but first edition D and D and first edition Traveller had _zero_ setting.  I could be remembering wrong, but I don't recall that first edition The Fantasy Trip has any setting info, either.  At any rate, as my formative gaming years occurred when setting just wasn't part of a game, I guess I never really developed that need to have a prepackaged setting right away.  No biggie; I can easily accept that this _is_ an important requirement for today's gamers.  As noted above, "Tastes change." 

 

To get back on track, though:

 

If a game sells reasonably well, then do a setting expansion for that game-- do NOT do a "toolbox" of how to build a setting that will work for this game; do NOT do "here are ten possible settings for this game."  I could honestly even accept that one book does _two_ possible settings, so long as they are closely related:  here is the "official" setting of this game; here is a darker, broodier, more baroque version of the setting, featuring grey and blue backgrounds and all the street lights have been replaced with 20 watt bulbs and the occasional gas lamp."   Or maybe "this is the official setting; this is the setting from the villains' point of view."    I am not _big_ on doing two settings, but so long as they are very closely related, it _shouldn't_ be a problem, particularly if one of them is clearly labeled "this is the official one.  If you go to a CON, this is what we will be playing.  If there is additional support coming, this is the version that will be supported first when it comes to allocating budget."

 

Removing the toolkitting (thanks, Tasha, if you're still following along.  I have read a number of the 5e setting books, and even knowing all that optional-optional-optional-optional stuff was in there, at this point I am so stinkin' used to seeing it that it didn't even register anymore.  Instead of each book having a setting currently, it's got an expansive set of Colorforms that you plop down onto the pre-painted background to make your own setting.  (Am I telling my age?  Anyone else remember Colorforms?  Just me?)

 

One thing that I think is very important to the success of a setting book, based on those unhappy with the offerings now (Tasha, myself, and people I have tried to convert to HERO who did a little online looking and went "Oh, Hell no!" ) is a solid adventure.  No; I don't think the adventure by itself is something that will sell the book, but I think it will be harder to sell without out.  Several reasons, the first of which is "perceived value."  You get a setting book for the price of a setting book, but you also get this pretty sweet 15, 25-page adventure!  It's an entire story arc; looks like three or four sessions to get through it!  Amazing!"

 

Let's face it:

 

How many of us bought gaming magazines back in the day, even if the entire issue was below average, because it had a pretty cool adventure in it?  How many of us bought Different Worlds because it had some of the highest production quality pull-out adventure modules for all sorts of different games we were into at the time?  How many of us subscribed to some seriously low-quality xerox-printed fanzines because there was one semi-regular contributor who had a knack for crafting an adventure once or twice a year?  While big game companies have "learned" that "adventures don't sell," the fact is that they _do_ sell; they just didn't do so good from the big publishing outfits.  Why?  Well, going from my original Traveller and D and D group, the  GMs didn't buy the brand name adventures very often because the guy running the store knew who was who, and had a business to run:  "Hey, Duke.  Don't you play in 'Tonio's Traveller group?"

"You know I do, Chestnut."

"Well he just picked up Adventure Supplement 4 a couple of days ago...."

"Cool!  So we'll probably have a game next weekend!  At the very least, it means we're about to conclude the mission we're on, right?"

"Yeah; or....  _You_ could pick up Adventure Supplement 4 and check it out before the game.... You know: find out what's a good thing to do; what's a bad thing to do.... where the goodies are...."  (because Chestnut was pretty convinced that all games were D and D).

"Yeah....   I don't think so, Chestnut.  That's...  that's not cool.  I might pick it up after we play it, though, if it was pretty good."

"Hey, Davien!  Davien, don't you play with Duke and 'Tonio?"

"Yeah."

"Well 'Tonio just bought Adventure Supplement 4 for Traveller, just a couple days ago...."

 

While it's entirely anecdotal, that's the number one reason I always heard from GMs who didn't use brand-name modules.  The Judge's Guild stuff, the small-press stuff....  nobody that didn't actually play knew much about it, and the magazines were super-safe, because there was this expectation that a "free" adventure wasn't good, and you were probably just buying the magazine for something else in it.  Truth is even if they mag adventure wasn't good, it could be tweaked easier than an adventure could be written...

 

Anyway, the point was, adventures may not by themselves sell, but they do _help_ sell.

 

Why an adventure in a world book? Because more than anything else, it will immediately help the players and GMs understand how the world works and how to interact with it.  Moreover, it should be a meaty adventure: an entire story arc (not necessarily a full-on campaign, but something that will take three or four sessions to play would be perfect, I think-- like the campaign book from 3e, only including microfilm madness.  This gives both examples of how to interact with the world and gives some solid play experience before the GM is left floundering on his own to make the next adventure.  If a short campaign will fit in there, then shoot for that!   Most importantly, that adventure should have the possibility for _complete_ resolution and the possibility to lead into the next planned product: a full-on campaign book.  No; it doesn't _have_ to be a single book, but can be a series of adventures, published semi-regularly, that all follow a story arc.  Perhaps they can be meaty enough to allow for a story arc within each adventure, tying into an overall campaign.  Moreover, each adventure book or campaign book should include a _short_ list of additional adventure ideas.  If they don't do anything else, they add background and more understanding of the world.  When you read an adventure seed like "Princess Moonwalker of the Valley People has been kidnapped while en route to the seaport village of Barzhaven.  The NPCs have gotten the news from the local town crier.  The King of the Valley People has offered two thousand Zennies and a land grant of eight hectares to anyone who can bring her back safely!"  we actually learn a lot about the world: 

 

There is a Valley Kingdom and a seaport.  There are brigands about.  Two thousand Zennies is probably a _lot_ of money.  We are measuring land by an archaic european standard.  The Valley People name themselves like Elves.  Even if you don't use the seeds, they are informative, and an important bit of world building, particularly for a neophyte who doesn't want or perhaps is not ready to do it himself.

 

We can talk about the understanding that adventures don't sell, but we know that they do-- perhaps not high-margin, high-profile sales, but if the world book sells enough units to demonstrate that people want to play the game, and want more of the background, setting, etc, then they will likely want adventures, if only for inspiration.

 

Adventures saved Dungeons and Dragons.

 

We can demonstrate all the old wisdom that they don't sell, but the entire hobby was on the way out prior to Pathfinder, and the entire success of Pathfinder was the Paths.  As Pathfinder caught fire, a lot of people moved from there to "the original," and even Wizards understood the value to providing solid content that could keep players occupied for a long time.

 

And more in this vein, but I think we all have the idea:  Complete game with some setting and a some sort of adventure and even a few "adventure ideas."

 

 

On 2/13/2022 at 11:17 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

In my view, we need the latter, and attracting the former is an added benefit.  A brand-new playing group needs that starting adventure, ready to play. Ideally, it has been designed to demonstrate various rules, perhaps with different encounters or steps in the adventure focusing on a very few rules at a time to create a staged learning environment.

 

HA!  I guess I jumped the gun on that, didn't I?   

 

To go a bit further, at this point, I wouldn't even begin to worry about offending the old hands.  Putting too much emphasis on what they want is kind of what brought HERO to where it is now.     Besides, most of us are collectors, at least to the best of our ability.  You could stamp out commemorative toilet paper with Hexman printed   all over it, and we'd buy it.  We're kinda sad like that.      Honestly, I'd have forty or more of those HERO dice if they'd picked a size that let me hold more than three or at a time.

 

 

 

On 2/13/2022 at 11:17 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Experienced gamers tend not to need a sample adventure to run from whole cloth (although, with other constraints on one's time, they are still very valuable to many experienced gamers too).  The newbies need an adventure to run, which also hopefully teaches some practical lessons in adventure design for the GM as it goes along, especially if designed for new GMs and gaming groups.

 

 

I agree: experienced gamers tend to not need a sample adventure.  However, I think we should have long ago paid attention to the fact that not one single experienced gamer has ever been injured by the inclusion of one.     At least, not in any way but his ego, and frankly, we could all use a swift kick to the ego every now and again: it keeps us humble.   

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:45 PM, steriaca said:

Yes, comic books are the world outside your window, but how does the addition of superheros change what is outside those windows?

 

 

From what I've seen of the comic books (and once again, on the off chance that anyone doesn't know this: I was never a comic book kid), not at all.  We have constant communication with aliens and technology that lets us step through a shadow and arrive in an alternate dimension, and machines that heal people who should have died long before they got the condition that they are in just before being subjected to the miracle healing machine.  We have miraculous teleportation devices and cloning technology that can turn one tomato plant into a thousand in just moments.

 

Yet when Captain America's secret ID needs to run to Europe, he gets his passport and climbs on a plane like every single person on the planet.  He might travel all the way to Ethiopia, which, in spite of our incredible technology, still suffers from drought and famine, and rather than turning the Sahara into a verdant jungle paradise, we let villains hide their secret missile bases there.

 

 

So from what I've seen of comics, there is an absolute status quo of "right here; right now" that is not only where the setting _is_, but that must be maintained and returned to between every adventure.

 

 

You can run your world differently-- I know I do-- but staying true to the comics?  Superheroes deal with Supervillains while serial killers still stalk college girls.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

7 hours ago, steriaca said:

How did we drift from 'altered way to hit a target' to 'attract new players'? I kinda agree that we need what is basically a solid worldbook. Yes, comic books are the world outside your window, but how does the addition of superheros change what is outside those windows?

 

That tends to happen in any discussion of fundamental mechanics, and in any discussion of anything else.  

[Chris Goodwin]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The perception was that "roll low" is counter intuitive, deterring new players.

 

It's the same probability wise, probably faster handling as far as math goes, and I don't like it for Hero. 

[Joe Walsh]

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I don't think it is going to be helpful in the long run to have new players attracted to the game system (because we all agree, I think, that there is no actual game here as it is presented) only to have them drink from the very well that poisoned the game.  It's counter-productive.

 

 

I think we need new play groups of new people using complete games extracted from the system.  I think those systems should bear simple indications that they were built using a larger, more complicated system, and invite them to check out the entire thing, if they are interested.  I _also_ think that those same informative blurbs should clearly point out that (assuming the game is complete) the entire Encyclopedia HEROica is _not_ required to play the game.  I honestly think the system itself should be soft-sold.  That is, don't put a lot of effort into pulling people straight into the overload that the System has become.  Let them play the game; let them enjoy the game.  Let them, in their own time, decide "I wonder what I can learn from the whole kit and kaboodle?" on their own, without any push toward it.  That's what I want to say: point it out, but don't push towards it.

 

If a game proves popular enough, write supplements _for that game_.  NOT for the HERO System, but compatible with Game X, but for Game X itself.  If you know the HERO system, then you already _know_ it's compatible with it.  If you already have the HERO System, you might not even need or want it.  Setting _expansions_ as opposed to setting books: I accept that I am the odd man out and that most people today want the first book to include some strong samples of setting.  I cut my teeth on games like D and D and Traveller and others of the era that had no setting out of the box.  (Champions, for example  )   I know: considering what they have grown into, people today have a hard time imagining it, but first edition D and D and first edition Traveller had _zero_ setting.  I could be remembering wrong, but I don't recall that first edition The Fantasy Trip has any setting info, either.  At any rate, as my formative gaming years occurred when setting just wasn't part of a game, I guess I never really developed that need to have one right away.  No biggie; I can easily accept that this is an important requirement for today's gamers.  As noted above, "Tastes change." 

 

That sounds a lot like what Steve Jackson Games did when they released the Dungeon Fantasy Role-Playing Game. It's "Powered by GURPS" but it's its own thing. No GURPS manuals needed or even encouraged. Just an option if you want it.

 

They ran a Kickstarter for the initial boxed set. It was successful, but not successful enough for them to reprint it after the initial print run. They actually cut their planned initial print run based on expected sales. They offered the PDFs in their company store, but otherwise planned to let it lie dormant.

 

Then a funny thing happened. Demand picked up, a GURPS licensee decided to support it with supplements, SJGames started producing supplements, etc.

 

I'm not saying it was a huge hit, but I think in the long run it's done reasonably well for a mechanically heavy dungeon delving RPG.

 

DFRPG (as it's known) plays to GURPS' strengths (namely, its granularity at the low end, and its melee combat system).

 

At the time, I thought it was an excellent sign that a new Champions boxed set could be even more of a hit, if done right. I still think that could work, with a simplified ruleset and the right supporting supplements. DFRPG consists of 430 pages in 5 books: character creation, game rules, spells, monsters, and an adventure. Champions could have the first two, plus an enemies book, a setting book, and a first adventure. Hopefully keeping the rules stuff as minimal as possible, using most of whatever the page count would be toward enemies, setting, and adventure material.

 

I know; mere pipe dreams. But still, since we're discussing the idea, it looks like a viable concept, even if DOJ's not ready to do that at the moment.

 

[dsatow]

Wow, I leave for a couple of weeks to deal with a reorg and CEO quitting at work and the thread seems to triple in size.

 

The change in the die roll is about many things.  To me, its about not letting a good game stagnate.  Improving the game to cater to new players is good.  That's why I post threads and polls and see about how people react to the idea.  I have put several ideas up here that after it was talked about, I shot down in my head.  Others I would keep.  That's probably the best thing about these boards.  Its a sounding board about what you might want to do with your campaign.