Fantasy Hero Schtick

[Chris Goodwin]

3rd and 4th editions both had 5 points for to and from one set of clothes, or 10 points for any set.  Is it worth that much?  I'd make it 3 and 5 points, at most.  7 and 8 points as Transform in 5er, or 3 and 4 points in 6th. 

 

Mutants and Masterminds has a power called Feature; a few points for a minor special ability with at most a minor game effect.  Their version has an instant change ability in fact.  I would consider importing Feature into Hero in the way many GMs have imported Quirks from GURPS.  I'd make it 1-10 points, and I'd make Instant Change part of it. 

 

I don't think we need to "build the spoon" for simple things. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Isn’t the real value of Instant Change s that it helps your character get into the action quicker. If you have a Secret ID then you either have to doink around a phase or two changing clothes as to maintain Secret ID or risk revealing your ID. I remember an episode of Spiderman and his Amazing Friends with he lost his suit and almost got caught by Aunt May. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the reason Instant Change was tossed as a power was because it is as Alton Brown calls it, a "unitasker"; that is, it only really does one thing and Hero is built as a toolkit.  What else does Instant Change do as a power?  Nothing.  So its not a tool, its a power build.  Hence, the Transform-based build, to show how to use a tool to make an interesting and useful ability.  So far so good.

 

But in my opinion stuff like that ought to be done as a quasi-talent, kind of like Transfer could be: here's a commonly-desired power with the wires and tubes all hidden away behind a curtain: Instant Change lets you change your clothes instantly to other clothes for 5 points.  Does it matter in game?  Sure, but not that much. 

 

What does Transfer do?  Take power from them and give it to you.  12 points per d6.  If you want to do something tricky with Aid (multiple powers, slower recovery time etc) then you pull back the curtain and mess with it.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay, from 4e:

 

Five points to change identity and one set of clothes (both elements are listed).  10 points to change into any set of clothes. Change identity is not listed separately, so my assumption has always been that you must buy the five point level to actually change identities.

 

Curiously, it is not "an additional 10 points," which suggests that a character not wishing to change his identity but simply wanting to be able to instantly change into up to ten different outfits (I have never understood and have largely ignored the 10-sets limitation) may purchase only the 10-point version.

 

I allow appropriate limitations, such as Spiderman's symbiote suit, where "all clothes must be black," and other such things.

 

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

My 4e PDF says 5 points to change identities and one set of clothes.  Changing identities for purposes of OIHID is (in 5e and 6e at least) done by activating a power that has the OIHID Limitation on it.  Unless whatever condition you've defined as preventing you from switching is in effect, that is.

 

Edit: In 4e, OIHID explicitly assumes there's some difficulty in switching identities, unless you've got Instant Change.  Just saw that.

[steriaca]

GM's are encouraged to make players pay for OIHID/OIAID. Everyone else starts on segment 12 and gets a post 12 recovery. A person with OIHID/OIAID has to arrive on segment 1 of the next phase (even if they have a Public Identity), mostly because they are assuming that they have to run off and find a nice quiet place to change, with or without being in site of other people (and may even take longer if the GM chooses).

 

Multiform doesn't have this limitation, except when noted. (It's odd for Billy Batson to actually slink away to say his magic word, mostly because he is an orphan and has nobody to protect, and everyone knows he is Captain Marvel/Shazam anyways [at least the Falsite Comics version]).

[Scott Ruggels]

 More 6e stupidity. Some things should avoid the Tool kit approach and just exist, Like Transfer, and instant change. Now you know why I stuck with 4e.

 

 

Keep Instant Change because it's easier for novice players to understand it, as it's a comic book trope. 

Then again is this Champions or Fantasy Hero?

[steriaca]

4 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 More 6e stupidity. Some things should avoid the Tool kit approach and just exist, Like Transfer, and instant change. Now you know why I stuck with 4e.

 

 

Keep Instant Change because it's easier for novice players to understand it, as it's a comic book trope. 

Then again is this Champions or Fantasy Hero?

Yes, we did go off topic. Instant Change at a 10 point level makes for a cool magical item (ring or amulet of costumes, for example).

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Edit: In 4e, OIHID explicitly assumes there's some difficulty in switching identities, unless you've got Instant Change.  Just saw that.

 

 

There would have to be, else it is not a Limitation.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The "stab a sail and slide down" trick

 

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RIDING A SAIL

It’s a classic in movies and TV, jumping to stab a sail with a dagger and slide down it, ripping a slash down the cloth to slow the character’s fall.  There are a lot of variants to this, such as using a tapestry, but they all behave roughly the same.

 

How do you pull this off?  Well first you need an implement to punch through the cloth, usually an edged or pointed weapon.  In theory someone with sufficient deadly skill in martial arts could even use a hand (or leg, for extra comedic effect) to punch a hole in the cloth and drag down it.

 

Then, its really up to the GM.  In real life, most cloth simply would not have enough resistance to actually slow someone much, but since this is fantasy and for fun, and its cool to do this, it should at least act as a +1 to +3 bonus to breakfall, if not an actual reduction to falling speed (by half, perhaps).  It takes at least a full phase to Ride The Sail down to a lower surface, and possibly longer, depending on how far down the surface is.

 

And its probably worth a die or two of presence attack.  And the anger of the sailors who have to stitch up the sail.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I wouldn't do this in a fight, but they do it all the time in movies

 

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THE SWAP

What is this stunt?  Its when you throw a weapon to the other hand and wield it with that hand.  Although it is pretty much unanimous that this is a Bad Idea in actual combat, it happens a lot in fantasy and swordplay movies.  The Princess Bride, for example has a great scene involving changing hands.  How do you do it?

 

Well a basic Dexterity Roll would handle it; fail and you fumble the weapon and recover but don’t change hands and cannot use the weapon to attack or block with until next phase.  Fail badly enough (by 3 or more) and you drop the weapon entirely and with Unluck maybe on a toe.  The GM might give a bonus or penalty based on circumstances (cold hands, wearing gauntlets, well balanced weapon, etc), but its basically just a DEX roll.

 

But why would you do it?  Well its possible you've just been slumming a bit, fighting with your off hand because you're bored and you know you can beat them without being at full skill (again, Princess Bride), then discover they are too much a threat so you need to fight with your main hand.  Maybe you use one hand for magic and decide you need your weapon in that hand.  Maybe you just want to surprise your opponent (see Disguising Your Attack).  Maybe you want to do it to be fancy and maybe gain a d6 increased presence attack.  Maybe you’re showing off for the audience.

 

Two Swords Go To War: So what about swapping weapons between hands?  Maybe you want your dagger in your main hand?  Well it’s a DEX roll again, but this time there’s an off-hand penalty; that is, if you aren’t trained so that you’re equally proficient in both hands, you suffer a penalty of -3 to the DEX roll to get it right, as above.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 11/13/2022 at 11:05 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

 More 6e stupidity. Some things should avoid the Tool kit approach and just exist, Like Transfer, and instant change. Now you know why I stuck with 4e.

 

4e was where Transfer started getting ridiculous, as I recall. 

 

AoE Transfer?  Divide the points up between all the targets.

 

Delay the return rate?  Buy it twice if you want both the Drain and Aid aspect to be delayed.

 

Pay for Range (or reduced END) on both the Drain and Aid aspect despite the fact that the Aid aspect does not benefit in the slightest from that Range. (and that Aid was 0 END by default).

 

Maxed out on what you can Aid?  The Drain aspect cuts out.

 

and on and on...

 

Drain/Aid/Transfer kind of shows Hero evolution.  We started with Supers, which had a lot of Drain and Transfer, but Aid was rare. Aid (and Healing) showed up for Fantasy Hero, as these abilities were far more common in Fantasy.

 

If we had started with  Fantasy game, there would likely have been Drain and Aid, but no Transfer.  Then someone would have combined the two in order to build a Transfer, and we would never have considered a separate Power.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

If we had started with  Fantasy game, there would likely have been Drain and Aid, but no Transfer.  Then someone would have combined the two in order to build a Transfer, and we would never have considered a separate Power.

 

 

I dont know, Hugh.  For me, _a lot_ of the 80s and early 90s were spent renting low- or no-budget fantasy movies that built their entire plots around transfereing "life force" or youth or vitality or magical aptitude or souls or-  you name it, and there was C-movie fantasy that was transferring it.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Thanks to Hermit for this idea

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THE DAMSEL CATCH AND RELEASE

This is the stunt where a character swings or rides by something, removes it from danger, and drops it off somewhere or carries it off.  You know, swinging from the chandelier to snatch the princess (or prince, as the case maybe) away from the villain, that kind of thing.

 

First, if this involves swinging from a cut away tapestry or what have you, then consult the “Swing From Things” stunt for how to pull that off.

 

Then, its just a matter of using movement to get near the target “damsel” then doing a move by grab maneuver.  If you succeed, you got the target and continue your move past that point.  You can then use the usual grab rules to either retain, discard, or throw (!) the grabee.

 

Resistance: Mind you, the person being grabbed might not want to be grabbed, in which case they are full DCV and try to avoid being held.  This also can be used on inanimate objects such as a weapon or a piece of treasure, of course.  And, of course if someone is being held, then the villain gets to try to hang on while you swoop by.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Today's Fantasy Hero Stunt

 

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GRABBING A WEAPON (The Old Rob Roy)

There is a great scene in the movie Rob Roy involving grabbing the blade of a sword to stop someone from being stabbed.  It’s a desperation move, but if things come down to being stabbed to death or having a cut hand, I know how most people would choose.

 

It’s a matter of grabbing the opponent’s weapon (already covered in the rules) by the blade.  This will deal damage to the grabber in most cases, then you engage in a STR vs STR battle to see who has enough strength to win: either shoving the weapon into their target through the grip or having it held in place.

 

GMs may wish to apply a penalty of 5 STR to a character using only one hand to grab or force the weapon (if say, one hand is holding a shield, or is grabbing around on the floor for a sword).

 

The Damage Done: Naturally, some weapons will not do damage to the grabber, such as a mace or an axe.  That said, most will, especially swords.  What kind of damage?  Well without using the weapon properly (with a swing and aiming) the damage should be base without any STR, maneuver, talent, or skill modifiers, then dealt only to location 6 (hands).

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

What about the version of grabbing the sword, using two hands in a "clap" so as not to get cut?

[Hugh Neilson]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:31 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I dont know, Hugh.  For me, _a lot_ of the 80s and early 90s were spent renting low- or no-budget fantasy movies that built their entire plots around transfereing "life force" or youth or vitality or magical aptitude or souls or-  you name it, and there was C-movie fantasy that was transferring it.

 

I cannot recall anyone ever trying to build such a construct as a Transfer in Hero mechanics.  Such "transfers" did not seem to just wear off in a few minutes, or even a few days.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Not just a Move Through:

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TRAMPLING

Let us say you are riding a horse toward a group of enemies.  Let us say you crash into them and run over some of them.  How far do you get?  How many enemies are trampled over?  This can be particularly significant for stunts such as Charging A Shield Wall.

 

First off the move is a basic Move Through combat maneuver, with all its modifiers and characteristics.  One of the choices when you impact your target with a Move Through is “keep moving to the end of your movement,” which allows you to continue up to the full movement you made.  That’s what you’re doing as you Trample.

 

However, instead of using a weapon, you are just using brute force of the mount to crash through and stomp on targets.

 

Plowing Through: So, if you Trample a bunch of targets, you are attempting to make your full move across whatever is in your path.  Remember: you are using not just your STR but your mount’s strength as well if you are doing a mounted Move Through attack.

 

If you do knockdown on the first target, you continue on and deal damage to the next target, minus the momentum it took to knock down the previous target.  It takes 5 STR to slow something 2m, so reduce the movement of the move through by the STR of the creature just trampled (10 STR would slow the attack by 4m, for example).  Then that damage is dealt to the following target, and so on.

 

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example: 

Alphonse the Knight charges at a malignity* of Goblins.  He is riding a horse and moving at 18m with the horse’s 30 STR.  Alphonse adds 5 STR to that, and the Move Through maneuver adds 3DC for momentum for a total of 10d6 (at a penalty of -2 OCV)

 

Alphonse crashes into the first Goblin after 5m of movement, and obliterates the little green guy with an average roll of 35 Stun and 10 Body.  He rolls 2d6 and subtracts the roll of 8 from the 10 Body for Knockdown.  That results in a positive number (2) which causes the Goblin to be knocked down.  It takes him 2m to get over the body of the Goblin, and so he can move a further 11m.

 

A Goblin has 13 STR, so the movement of the horse is slowed by 3m (-2m per 5 STR) and keeps moving at 15m of velocity.  On to the next Goblin, Alphones rolls to hit then rolls 2½d6 for velocity and the 7d6 for STR that he already had, and deals 9½d6 damage to that creature.  He rolls lower, doing only 30 Stun and 8 Body.  That still knocks out the Goblin, and with a knockdown roll of 4 still is positive, and flattens this Goblin.

 

Alphonse continues crushing over Goblins until he either breaks through the 4 ranks to the other side, or does not knock down a Goblin and is brought to a halt, surrounded by Goblins.

 

*search engine suggests that as a collective noun for a group of goblins

 

[Genma]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:48 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

What about the version of grabbing the sword, using two hands in a "clap" so as not to get cut?

Took me hours to find this video from “The Master.” I’m pretty sure most of us in this forum are familiar with this 80’s TV series:

 

Mark 2:09

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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What about the version of grabbing the sword, using two hands in a "clap" so as not to get cut?

 

I would probably call that a really fancy grab or block, depending on what you do with the sword after you get it.  You cannot really disarm someone holding it like that, but you can prevent them from hurting you

[Ninja-Bear]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I would probably call that a really fancy grab or block, depending on what you do with the sword after you get it.  You cannot really disarm someone holding it like that, but you can prevent them from hurting you

Or it could be a type of Bind Maneuver too.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This one is pretty basic and specific, but the idea is to provide examples of how to do the thing you saw in that movie or show, so

 

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CHARGING A SHIELD WALL

There are some defensive moves that enemies can engage in, particularly with shields.  One of the most effective ones is the Shield Wall or similar maneuvers such as a “Testudo” construction, used by multiple targets.

 

These maneuvers almost always involve having longer weapons such as spears which are thrust out at the attacker, to damage them or fend them off. 

 

The Charge: Riding animals typically are extremely reluctant to charge into a block of men bristling with pikes or spears.  To do so requires a fairly substantial riding roll, a specially trained mount, or some kind of magical illusion.  A riding roll by 5 or a presence attack of +30 to encourage the poor beast to attack will suffice.  A Mind Control of Ego+20 would work as well.

 

Naturally, enough armor will protect the mount and with training can be made confident to attempt it; Alexander of Macedon had such horses for charges against shield walls that had heavy bronze plating on the chest and neck to save the steed’s life.

 

Once the creature can be convinced to run straight at spikes, it’s a matter of a Move Through on the shield wall, pushing back as far as the knockdowns will allow.  See Trampling below for more details on doing multiple knockdowns.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is one I am not sure about -- its possible that I even missed a rule in Fantasy Hero that I missed -- but its something I think the rules need:

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Fend: Using the weapon to keep a target back, not allowing them to advance on you without penalty.  It is a lot like a Cover maneuver, but has some differences.  A Fend does not require an attack roll, but can only be done on that character’s phase.  It requires free action by the character and a weapon of Large size to brandish.  Only one facing can be fended at once. 

 

A character that moves toward to become adjacent to a person who is Fending loses 1 OCV and 1 DCV.  They must be in the valid facing that is being Fended, and must move up to be next to the character either through a normal move on their phase or on a free 1m move.  This penalty ends at the end of the phase that the move ends.

 

A character that is Fending cannot attack any character without losing the Fending effect.

 

 

I am concerned this has loopholes or is missing something important.