Modelling a "Google search" spell

[m.mavnn]

I'm trying to think of the best way to model the spell Page Bound Epiphany from Pathfinder for a Hero mage. The special effect (which I love) is as follows:

 

Quote

You magically scour the world’s libraries for information that might refresh your memory about a topic. Upon casting this spell, the focus book’s pages fill with snippets and selections from countless books.

 

In Pathfinder, the spell gives +1 to knowledge skills per round you continue reading, up to a maximum of +10. But I'm not sure that fully reflects the description of the spell (which may reveal knowledge you didn't previously have at all), and also plays badly from a mechanics point of view with a lot of Hero magic systems as skill levels are wildly imbalanced in power frameworks.

 

Any neat ideas, hive mind?

[Ndreare]

I think I have seen it presented as follows in previous attempts. 

 

 

KS: Everything 30- (cost endurance -1/2, gestures -1/4, incantations -1/4 Active points 31, real cost 15)

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Cramming would work, just give you a really basic roll on any topic.

[Opal]

There should be a "fall down the rabbit hole" side effect.

[LoneWolf]

The big problem in trying to adapt Page Bound Epiphany to the Hero systems is the different way the game system treats knowledge skills.  In Pathfinder there are 10 knowledge skills that cover everything.  In Hero there are an infinite number of knowledge skills.   Then throw in the fact that Hero has science skills and professional skills as well. 

 

Probably the best way to handle this spell would be to buy it as cramming.  Cramming may only give you an 8 or less roll and although skill levels do not apply, skill modifiers do apply.   A routine task gives you between a +3 to a +5 bonus, and you can also take time.    The thing to keep in mind about background skills is the more specific the skill the more you can get out of it.  By narrowly defining the skill you pick up with cramming you can increase the chance of yielding useful information.    For example, if you have KS US history and you are looking for the name of George Washington’s mother that is going to be a more difficult task than if you had KS George Washington’s Family.  The KS US history will probably impose a penalty to the roll, where the KS George Washington’s Family will get a bonus.  
 

[m.mavnn]

In the campaign I'm playing with converting, I (the GM) have used the spell several times to give the players specific pieces of information rather than (or more accurately, as an excuse for) the skill bonus. After all - it is actually showing snippets from books you probably haven't read.

 

While the skill roll versions being proposed are simple and follow the *rule* effect of the spell closely, I'm beginning to wonder if some kind of 'no (or limited? You get to pick a topic) conscious control' clairvoyance might be more accurate to the special effect, and more fun to cast.

 

That said, things like range become interesting - it feels like the 'range' should more be about how many books on the topic exist (easier for more books) than how far away they are.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If it has a skill roll, its necessarily a range of success or not: you make the roll, you got some info, you fail the roll you get nothing.  So in that sense its acting as a limited conscious control of sorts.  If you use no conscious control, then it becomes the GM's decision: do I want them to have this information or not?

 

Clairvoyance has a host of drawbacks of its own, and is quite expensive for a limited effect of this sort but it might feel more literally what you have in mind (they look into a book).  You'd just have to buy it so that it added a sense to be able to see books in darkness (either closed books or books in places not well lit that just happened to be open to the desired page).  Plus there's the range issue you noted.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd buy it as Cramming plus Eidetic Memory plus lots of Speed Reading plus Penetrating Vision, only for reading books within X meters.  Buy it with Clairvoyance if you want to read books that are out of LOS. 

[Mr. R]

Here are two I am lifting from Mr. Shrike for a Knowledge Domain.

 

First---Deep Thoughts

Deep Contemplation: +38 INT (38 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 3/4), , Concentration 0 DCV (Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 😎

Eidetic Memory, 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Century (+0), Inherent (+1/2) (7 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 1/4), Only to Remember Things Learned With Deep Contemplation (-1), Concentration 0 DCV (Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

 

Next and Simpler

Mystic Knowledge

Detect General Information And Facts 11- (Mental Group), Discriminatory (15 Active Points); Only While In Good Standing With Faith (Cannot be removed; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

[m.mavnn]

2 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I'd buy it as Cramming plus Eidetic Memory plus lots of Speed Reading plus Penetrating Vision, only for reading books within X meters.  Buy it with Clairvoyance if you want to read books that are out of LOS. 

 

Penetrating dark vision with range penalty skill levels, all limited to only reading books. I love it

[LoneWolf]

The reading of book is more of a special effect and really does not need to be bought.  You are also reading snippets of books from all over the world.  This means any power related to reading books is going to be incredibly expensive.  What the spell does is to give you knowledge you would otherwise not have access to on a particular subject.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that the rolls for skills are for when you are in combat or otherwise under stress or making the skill roll is crucial.  The spell is designed to be used out of combat and knowledge skills are generally not considered crucial.  This means that for the most part the character is going to almost always succeed even with an 8 or less.  I can see a GM having the player make the roll to see how much information they gain, but for the most part they should gains something even with just a familiarity.  

 

By narrowly defining the KS that player will usually get the bonus for routine task.  So will get anywhere between +3 to +5 on the actual roll.   Being able to get a KS with a roll of between 11 – 13 or less will usually give you a decent amount of information.    
 

[Ockham's Spoon]

This sounds like a convenient plot device to me; it basically allows the GM to give the players info that they would not have otherwise known.  Since the GM has complete control over the info they actually receive, it isn't going to be game-changing or unbalanced, and as such it should not really cost many character points.  I have had psychic characters in the past that have the ability to get flashes of psychic insight that just let the GM give the players info when they are stuck.  The character buys the KS: Random Factoids for 3 points.  When the character rolls for this skill, the GM arbitrarily assigns a bonus or penalty depending on whether they want it to work at that particular juncture.  This works like the KS: Everything 30- except that it is cheaper and the GM controls when to hand out info.

 

I should note that KS: Random Factoids was also a source of great entertainment.  When the players tried to get info that the GM didn't want to divulge, they would come up with some completely unrelated trivia. 

Player: "I'll roll my KS: Random Factoids to see if I have an idea on how to defeat the Demon Panther."

GM: "You realize that cats can't make Vitamin D in their skin like humans, but their sebaceous glands secret oil that creates Vitamin D when exposed to UV light, so the cat gets all the Vitamin D it needs when it is grooming itself.  So if you can keep the Demon Panther out of the sunlight for long enough, it might die of rickets."

[LoneWolf]

One warning about converting Pathfinder spells.  The game systems are very different so often when you do this the cost of the resulting spell is often way out of line for the level of the spell.  Something that is a low-level spell in Pathfinder may end up costing a lot of points.  Just as often the reverse is also true.   Some Pathfinder cantrips cost more than higher level spells.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Something that is a low-level spell in Pathfinder may end up costing a lot of points.  Just as often the reverse is also true.   Some Pathfinder cantrips cost more than higher level spells.

 

 

Same for D&D.  Basically their level assignment is often arbitrary or not well-considered, and when you build them with Hero you get a real feel for what they ought to be.

[m.mavnn]

Oh, absolutely. The idea would be a story translation, not a rules one.

 

One of the big frustrations for the players with pathfinder is the lack of flexibility, having to take options inappropriate for their character just to get to the ones that make sense, or metamagic being so prescriptive in what it allows.

 

Many of the spells actually overlap from a story/special effect perspective. For example the majority of the attack spells can just be collapsed into an RKA with variable sfx and area, there's no need to buy dimension door and teleport as separate powers, and why model the limitations from mage hand when you have telekinesis? But a few spells, like this one, are flavourful enough that they've become part of the story of the character. 

[theinfn8]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:38 PM, m.mavnn said:

In the campaign I'm playing with converting, I (the GM) have used the spell several times to give the players specific pieces of information rather than (or more accurately, as an excuse for) the skill bonus. After all - it is actually showing snippets from books you probably haven't read.

 

I think this is the crux of the spell, really. The point of the spell is to conditionally feed information to the players. That is the reason knowledge skills exist in the first place. Roll dice, learn something the Player doesn't know, not something the PC doesn't know. If the information is something the players need to move forward it should be handed over to the players on a silver platter with a giant neon sign saying "Quest Info Here". In either PF or Hero, if a PC has some level of proficiency in a skill then the GM can just decide that the character knows the piece of information. Especially since the GM is interpreting what exactly a successful knowledge roll gives to the player anyway.

 

Personally, I would not go beyond Skill Levels, maybe with Requires a Roll (maybe a flat roll). Failure means you did not find anything. That is essentially what the spell does.

 

If it is a part of the PCs shtick, then why make it more complicated than game permission for buying a couple skill levels for knowledge only? It adds so much potential for RP as the character keeps diving back to the book/spell to try and figure a problem out rather than truly learning anything. Hell, maybe it is at a point where it is complication worthy.