Is Resistant Flash (or Mental or Power) Defense redundant?

[AlgaeNymph]

Flash Defense already counters the Normal Damage BODY, right?  So why would taking Resistant for it even be an option?

 

Edit: For the sake of clarification, the defense I'm appraising is the V'hanian Broad-Spectrum Force-Field: Resistant Protection (12 PD/12 ED/8 Sight Group Flash Defense/8 Mental Defense/10 Power Defense).

Edited January 17 by AlgaeNymph

[Lord Liaden]

Because you can apply the Advantage, "Attack Versus Alternate Defense" (Resistant Flash Defense) to a Blast or Killing Attack, or even Strength if you want.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its going to be a really, really rare circumstance, but maybe some villain creates the flash gun that does killing damage to anyone without resistant flash defense.  As a GM I would probably bop with a nerf bat any player who tried to buy that sort of build, but its theoretically possible.

[Rich McGee]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its going to be a really, really rare circumstance, but maybe some villain creates the flash gun that does killing damage to anyone without resistant flash defense. 

That sort of thing is why they don't make flashcubes any more. 

 

Or better yet, one of those old-timey cameras where you put the flash powder in a pan loose. 

 

"Beware my doomsday device, you Gen Z slackers!  Its technology is far too outdated for you to even comprehend!"  - the Sesquicentenarian

[Lord Liaden]

I was thinking about an attack with the SFX of jabbing someone in the eye. A spitting cobra's venom could be defined that way, too. Perhaps Combined with a more standard Flash attack.

 

I agree, rare SFX, but with the right justification and balancing Limitations I might allow it.

[Rich McGee]

2 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I was thinking about an attack with the SFX of jabbing someone in the eye.

"Defense is Resistant Flash Defense or being one of the Three Stooges."

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I was thinking about an attack with the SFX of jabbing someone in the eye. A spitting cobra's venom could be defined that way, too. Perhaps Combined with a more standard Flash attack.

 

I agree, rare SFX, but with the right justification and balancing Limitations I might allow it.

Yeah, I was going to mention the killing attack Flash attack which depending on genre (of course I’m thinking Martial Arts) would be appropriate. But how how about someone with searing flames? Or so Hideous your eyes melt? 😁

[Hugh Neilson]

And eventually we get the AVAD (or NND - if someone has the defense, it was acquired for this specific attack) against Hardened Resistant Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense.  "Beware My Power - Green Trashcan's Scent!"

 

This is a great way to have an arm's race - "Oh yeah, well Captain Skunk's attack is AVAD against double Hardened Resistant Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense!!"

 

Or we simply rule that exotic defenses are resistant by default and assess AVADs and NNDs with care.

[Lord Liaden]

Or, we don't impose a default that's not official, and assess AVADs and NNDs with care anyway. Those Advantages come with warnings, so even an inexperienced HERO GM should know to approach them warily.

 

I've never bought the notion that GMs and their players have to be so adversarial that they necessarily get into an "arms race" just because one of them wants an unusual Power build. A good gaming group should have enough trust to compromise on such issues, and IME the issues can almost always be worked out.

[AlgaeNymph]

21 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Because you can apply the Advantage, "Attack Versus Alternate Defense" (Resistant Flash Defense) to a Blast or Killing Attack, or even Strength if you want.

Usable answers so far.  Though I wonder what sort of attacks those would be?  (And eye gouges are not comical outside of The Three Stooges.  Be more like something you'd see in The Boys, or Invincible...)

 

To expand on this question, would the same logic apply to Mental Defense and Power Defense?  And should I start a separate thread for that (for the sake of future people searching)?

[Lord Liaden]

If you mean, Resistant Mental Defense or Power Defense, I'll just mention that AVAD has a cost structure based on how rare/exotic the Defense against it is. And at least one official Champions character I can think of, Valak the World-Ravager (Champions Villains Vol. 3) has Resistant Mental Defense.

 

Whether you start another thread depends on how much more detail on this subject you want to discuss, and how far from the original topic you now wish to go.

[DShomshak]

16 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Or we simply rule that exotic defenses are resistant by default and assess AVADs and NNDs with care.

That's what I assumed in my Ultimate Supermage playtest campaigns, which began before there was any official word on things like Resistant Mental Defense. And since exotic-defense Killing damage can only exist by creating an NND/AVAD, the only reasons to postulate Resistant versions of those defenses are a) to create such an arms race, or b) an obsession with pattern that demands that because PD and ED exist in normal and resistant forms, *all* defenses must exist in normal and resistant forms.

 

I do not consider maintaining a consistent pattern to be a crucial consideration for game design.

 

(OK, Mental Illusions can deal Killing Damage, but the rules for this are idiosyncratic. You defend by having enough Mental Defense to keep the final effect below the +20 threshold. If you don't have that, whether your pitiful insufficient Mental Defense is Double Hardened Impenetrable Resistant or not doesn't matter.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Flash Defense already counters the Normal Damage BODY, right?  So why would taking Resistant for it even be an option?

 

As a more specific answer to this question; Flash does not deal any body damage, its not actually using the damage rules at all, it has a separate mechanic which uses the normal damage rules to count body, but only to determine the effect.  Its like flipping a coin doesn't actually involve any payment or wealth, its just a device to determine an outcome.

[Rich McGee]

Apt comparison, that.  Well phrased.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, DShomshak said:

That's what I assumed in my Ultimate Supermage playtest campaigns, which began before there was any official word on things like Resistant Mental Defense. And since exotic-defense Killing damage can only exist by creating an NND/AVAD, the only reasons to postulate Resistant versions of those defenses are a) to create such an arms race, or b) an obsession with pattern that demands that because PD and ED exist in normal and resistant forms, *all* defenses must exist in normal and resistant forms.

 

I do not consider maintaining a consistent pattern to be a crucial consideration for game design.

 

(OK, Mental Illusions can deal Killing Damage, but the rules for this are idiosyncratic. You defend by having enough Mental Defense to keep the final effect below the +20 threshold. If you don't have that, whether your pitiful insufficient Mental Defense is Double Hardened Impenetrable Resistant or not doesn't matter.)

 

Dean Shomshak

You missed option C. C) Hero is a tool kit and so it will provided Resistant to powers like Flash or Mental Defense because GM/group feels that this represents the build better. For Example the Master of the Spiting Cobra Clan has a spit attack to the eyes which not only flashes and hurts but does actual killing damage to the unfortunate victim.  However their rivals, the Northern Mongoose Clan has a secret technique to stop the attack hence the Resistant. I see this no more or less an arms race than what the players allow. Do heroes need Hardened Defenses? I bet you see a lot when every villain has an AP attack.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, DShomshak said:

That's what I assumed in my Ultimate Supermage playtest campaigns, which began before there was any official word on things like Resistant Mental Defense. And since exotic-defense Killing damage can only exist by creating an NND/AVAD, the only reasons to postulate Resistant versions of those defenses are a) to create such an arms race, or b) an obsession with pattern that demands that because PD and ED exist in normal and resistant forms, *all* defenses must exist in normal and resistant forms.

 

I do not consider maintaining a consistent pattern to be a crucial consideration for game design.

 

(OK, Mental Illusions can deal Killing Damage, but the rules for this are idiosyncratic. You defend by having enough Mental Defense to keep the final effect below the +20 threshold. If you don't have that, whether your pitiful insufficient Mental Defense is Double Hardened Impenetrable Resistant or not doesn't matter.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I just want to note that under the 6E AVAD rules, you can also have exotic-defense Normal Damage attacks with that Advantage which will do unimpeded BODY to a target without that Defense. It just won't do as much as a comparable Killing Attack on average, but will do more STUN.

 

Being able to do BODY damage with AVAD is an additional +1 Advantage. And the price of AVAD goes up the more exotic the Defense is. So rather than starting an arms race by creating something overpowered, the Advantage is self-limiting in that it provides diminishing returns the rarer the Defense against it is.

[AlgaeNymph]

For the sake of clarification, the defense I'm appraising is the V'hanian Broad-Spectrum Force-Field: Resistant Protection (12 PD/12 ED/8 Sight Group Flash Defense/8 Mental Defense/10 Power Defense).

[Lord Liaden]

Ah, yes, I've seen other "force field" constructs like that. In this case I believe it's primarily a construct/notation convenience. A bunch of Defenses are being thrown together as a package, and the writer (I assume Steve Long) wanted PD/ED to be Resistant, so it was simpler to make all of them Resistant. Not that he necessarily expected the fact that the other Defenses are Resistant to come into play. Since the FF is presumably for a NPC, cost wasn't a significant consideration.

[pawsplay]

Well, for a force field, it would be nice if it blocked a disintegration ray that went against Power Defense.

[AlgaeNymph]

15 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

A bunch of Defenses are being thrown together as a package, and the writer (I assume Steve Long) wanted PD/ED to be Resistant, so it was simpler to make all of them Resistant.

That sentence...answers all my questions.