little man big sword

[Old Man]

A prospective player to my game grumbled that the little people should be able to swing big swords. In my head I was thinking "uh...no. why? because I said so." In answer to his grumbles, I ignored him.

 

Basically speaking, in my game the little people are about 3 feet tall and can have a maximum STR of 15. Two-handed swords have a STR min of 15. Using his munchkin logic, he stated that the little people should be able to swing two-handed swords if they have STR 15. Of course, it is stated in the player guidelines that the little people cannot use two-handed swords.

 

Am I being heavy handed in my ruling? I didn't think so. I couldn't accept a 6 foot man effectively swinging a 12 foot sword, so a 3 foot man with a 6 foot sword is about the same no?

[keithcurtis]

If your game guidelines state a convention of your world, any prospective player would have to have giant cajones to debate them. Especially when they are logical. Give him a short broad sword and say, "Here's your two-handed sword, there's the door. Choose."

But say it more nicely.

 

Keith "Never let players into your world. They ruin everything." Curtis

[Monolith]

I would just allow the character to use a bastard sword like a two-handed sword and call it a day. But I would keep in mind that that 3' tall character is strong enough to pick up two full-grown human men. I do not think the character would look any more foolish wielding a 6' sword as he would carrying two men over his shouders around a tavern.

[Old Man]

Part of the problem is that the hobbit shouldn't be able to reach 15 STR to begin with. The STR range for a hobbit ought to be 0-10, if that. Maybe more like 0-8, with an average of 3.

 

Wait, 3' is short even for a hobbit.

 

And then there's the problem of "where does he grip it", since little hobbit hands aren't going to get a good grip on a nice fat claymore hilt.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Let us leave aside the question of how a Sauron-sized ring fits so nicely on Frodo's stubby little hobbit finger....

 

If you're using a "little person" race in your game, then you should design them in such a way that they'll have their own weapon preferences. If this guy wants to weild a whopping great sword, why does he also want to play a 3' tall character? Sounds like an inherent contradiction to me. Even if he is strong enough to carry the thing and swing it, he won;t have the balance to weild it with any skill. And when you;re fighting for your life, a clumsy weapon can be worse than no weapon at all.

 

He should get he to one of his own weaponsmiths and have them create a nice, balanced weapon in keeping with his size that he can train himself to use effectively.

[Talon]

Check out http://www.shalott.com/hero/fred/5th_strmins.asp for a suggestion on how to handle exactly this issue. Using this house rule, the little people wouldn't be able to wield large weapons regardless of their STR -- the leverage just isn't there.

[JohnTaber]

Do you have a physical limitation for being short? Might make sense and it would assuage the player...

[The Mad GM]

Hand the player (whom I'm assuming is average size) a twelve foot 2x4 and ask him to swing it around, only holding onto the last 24" or so. Then tie a 10 pound weight on the end and ask him to do it again.

 

If he's willing to pay to replace all the furniture in your house, let him use the sword.

[MarkusDark]

The Sauron Size ring is magical and 'resizes' itself to the wearer. It was even depicted in the first movie in the Prologue.

 

As for a 3' person swinging a 5' sword, it is a matter of manuvering and leverage and nothing to do with strength. Forget about the 2x4 as afterall the character is supposedly a trained adventurer and everything, has a 15 strength meanwhile your average gamer has half that and so on. Dunno what the 10 pound weight at the end is suppose to represent as that basically adds over a hundred pounds to the wood as well as change the HELL out of the balance (insert exponential weight/distance equation here)

 

If you are REALLY into proving the point, go out, give your friend an 11 foot piece of PVC (what he would wield if he was a hobling with a 5.5 foot sword and a 12 foot piece costs about 2 bucks - plus you can make boffer weapons out of it afterwards!) and you take one that is 4 foot in length. Have him wield it by the bottom Two feet of the pipe (Mark it with tape) and see how well he does against you. Low blocks become a REAL bitch.

 

Then have two more friends pick up 4 foot pieces and see how well he does. You don't even have to try hard and hopefully he'll get the idea.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

If you're using a "little person" race in your game, then you should design them in such a way that they'll have their own weapon preferences. If this guy wants to weild a whopping great sword, why does he also want to play a 3' tall character? Sounds like an inherent contradiction to me. Even if he is strong enough to carry the thing and swing it, he won;t have the balance to weild it with any skill. And when you;re fighting for your life, a clumsy weapon can be worse than no weapon at all.

 

Actually I think he's trying to take advantage of the free +DCV for size while at the same time wielding a weapon that does huge damage.

 

Anyway, I have no problem with making bastard swords require two hands for the little people. The question is, how do you set the STR min for it? Along the same line, if broad swords become the little people bastard swords, how do you determine the STR min for them? I should have realized this would come up, but I also figured that my players would be reasonable. My broad swords have STR min 10 and bastard swords set at 13/15

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

Actually I think he's trying to take advantage of the free +DCV for size while at the same time wielding a weapon that does huge damage.

 

Is this free DCV a house rule? Because permanently small 5ed characters have to pay for that DCV. It really sounds like your dealing with a munchkin, and that nothing you say that makes logical sense is going to make a bit of difference. He sees his character as numbers to be leveraged, not as a game description of a concept. He wants something for nothing, not to play a character.

 

Keith "TANSTAAFL" Curtis

[Old Man]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Is this free DCV a house rule? Because permanently small 5ed characters have to pay for that DCV. It really sounds like your dealing with a munchkin, and that nothing you say that makes logical sense is going to make a bit of difference. He sees his character as numbers to be leveraged, not as a game description of a concept. He wants something for nothing, not to play a character.

 

Not just a munchkin, a poor munchkin. A good munchkin can create a wildly powerful character without resorting to such credibility-straining ideas.

 

Another possibility is that the player is amused only by cartoonish or comic-relief characters. The kind you always see in the movies and on tv, that you really wish weren't there.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Old Man

Not just a munchkin, a poor munchkin. A good munchkin can create a wildly powerful character without resorting to such credibility-straining ideas.

 

Heh, if you want to see an outrageous munchkinism, Mr. Vimes' thread on surviving a Horror game has a great suggestion. Buy illiteracy, so you can't read the books. Not only does it make you immune to evil tomes and get you free points, he further suggests buying illiteracy in multiple languages to garner even more points.

 

Keith "Now that's Brass!" Curtis

 

PS. Apologies for the temporary de-rail.

[Vondy]

Its not just a matter of strength.

 

Its a matter of size, balance, and leverage.

 

A two handed sword / claymore can be as much as twice the length of this characters height. Let alone the fact that this characters arms are probably only 1.5 feet long (max)!

 

The grip/handle/pommel thingy on a good two-handed sword is as long as this characters arms are for G-d's sake.

 

If the blade is expertly balanced and has a full metal tang the balance point will be at roughly 3 - 3.5 feet from the base of the grip. The balance point alone is farther out on the apex of the swing than this character is tall. He'll fling himself all over the place with every swing.

 

And don't forget that it takes more strength to stop and control a blade than to swing it! Every miss will spin him around like a top.

 

Too be frank - you can, according to the rules, weild a weapon you don't have the strength for if your willing to take a -1 OCV (i don't remember if that's a flat pen or per 5 character points of difference).

 

Even so, I think your ruling is fair. Instead of just saying no, however, why don't you:

 

Assign a -3OCV unweildy weapon penalty AND

tell the player that everytime they miss they'll be 1/2 DCV

 

Personally, I don't care how tall you are, with the exception of pole arms there should be a penalty for any weapon thats longer than you are. Its just unwieldy (unless you have superstrength).

 

For this character a broadsword with a long grip IS a 2 handed sword.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Is this free DCV a house rule? Because permanently small 5ed characters have to pay for that DCV. It really sounds like your dealing with a munchkin, and that nothing you say that makes logical sense is going to make a bit of difference. He sees his character as numbers to be leveraged, not as a game description of a concept. He wants something for nothing, not to play a character.

 

Oops. I didn't mean FREE, just that the +DCV is built into the racial package.

 

I could think of several ways to make a little person dangerous in my game and none of them involve big swords. Geeze, I don't even require any limitations on magic...

[Blackout]

Well, ya know, it's not so much the length of the sword... it's how you use it. Okay. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

 

Seriously now.

 

D-Man makes some good points about the vertically challenged character's arm length in relation to the weapon's balance point and what-not. I think the deciding factor for me, if I were in the GM's chair on this one, is the fact that the sword is going to weigh about half as much as the character.

 

I can military press my weight, I can bench more than my weight, and I can curl half my weight... I sure as heck wouldn't want to try swinging around a 6' piece of really sharp steel that was half my weight, though!

 

There's a little something called inertia that'll cause all sorts of problems with that scenario. Newton had something to say about that as well... something about a body in motion staying in motion, if memory serves.

 

I'd let him do it, though, I'd just apply some serious penalties.

 

Forget the PVC pipe experiment someone suggested. If you really wanna demonstrate how silly the notion is, take a 5 gallon pail, fill it with water, have the guy swing it and try to stop. And that won't even be close to the weight differential. I'd suggest doing this outside.

[lemming]

For Arduin Hero we had a minimum weight for each weapon as well. It was frustrating for my Amazon. I had the STR to wield a bastard sword with one hand, but was too skinny...

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Blackout

Forget the PVC pipe experiment someone suggested. If you really wanna demonstrate how silly the notion is, take a 5 gallon pail, fill it with water, have the guy swing it and try to stop. And that won't even be close to the weight differential. I'd suggest doing this outside.

 

I suggested the PVC experiement due to the fact that people often do not have the same musculature as would a fantasy character. I personally can't come NEAR your abilities of lifting weights but I am sure that my barbarian character would make you look like a wimp.

 

Instead of trying to guessimate what a 7 pound claymore in the hands of a halfling with a 17 strength would translate to for me, I figured I'd suggest just the awkwardness of the size of the weapon - and direct size ratios are rather easy - especially for anyone who can do the math of Hero.

 

The other trouble with a 5 gallon pail filled with water is that, I believe, it weighs close to 50 pounds, has no real handle and the weight balance in comparison to a sword is all wrong. A sword could weigh 20 pounds but with proper balance (which most good fighting swords are made) you can fight rather effectively with it.

 

Since I teach a Japanese sword class, I just tried to figure out how I would show one of my students the folly of their ways.

[Blackout]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

I suggested the PVC experiement due to the fact that people often do not have the same musculature as would a fantasy character. I personally can't come NEAR your abilities of lifting weights but I am sure that my barbarian character would make you look like a wimp.

 

Instead of trying to guessimate what a 7 pound claymore in the hands of a halfling with a 17 strength would translate to for me, I figured I'd suggest just the awkwardness of the size of the weapon - and direct size ratios are rather easy - especially for anyone who can do the math of Hero.

 

The other trouble with a 5 gallon pail filled with water is that, I believe, it weighs close to 50 pounds, has no real handle and the weight balance in comparison to a sword is all wrong. A sword could weigh 20 pounds but with proper balance (which most good fighting swords are made) you can fight rather effectively with it.

 

Since I teach a Japanese sword class, I just tried to figure out how I would show one of my students the folly of their ways.

 

I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on your PVC pipe idea:) And I realize there are some problems with the water-filled-bucket schtick (and it was mostly used as an attempt at humor - which, obviously, failed:mad: )

 

Arguing that the balance of a weapon makes no difference is foolish (and I try not to be that as often as possible:cool: ) The main point I was atually trying to make was that, no matter how well balanced a weapon is, and no matter how strong you are, if something weighs half as much as you do (or even 1/4), it's gonna cause you no end of problems when you try to wave it around at arms length.

[wlfjstr]

IMO, unless there is a physical limitation disad (really short) in the halfling package, he should be allowed to wield the sword. If he is not allowed to wield it in the absence of the disad, then the points he spent on STR lose some of their value because the higher STR does not allow him to use stronger weapons. Even with the disad their should be other options for him.

What it comes down to is SFX. Why couldn't it have the stats of the big sword (weight, damage etc.) but be smaller for his hands and style of fighting? It could be more difficult to replace than normal human weapons as well since it needs to be fitted to his size. Maybe no human smiths could make one, and halfling smiths don't often make that kind of weapon.

I myself have always wanted to play a halfling fighter type, reminescent of the 'Bullroarer' Took.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Uh, I almost hate to say this, but 3 foot 15 STR is *proportionately* the same as STR 30 for a human sized character: It *is* superhuman. Could you use an aluminium sword that length? 'Cause for the weight, that's what it is to the little guy.

[ShinDangaioh]

Maybe that's why Dwarves use axes and hammers. The balance is situated closer to the handle

[Yamo]

As a GM, I would rule that the character's small/light Physical Limitation (he does have one, right?) is more than enough justification to deny him the ability to use a massive sword. That's what Disadvantages are for.

[Vondy]

I'm with Yamo on this one - the lim should be required.

[Ndreare]

Slap the player in the head and tell him that people resort to violence when their mind is to week to handle a situation. Then tell him you are about to show him how week you are.

 

On a side note in my opinion this package should be built like the reverse of growth.

 

There should be a limitation like this plus what ever concept modifiers you have in your game like uv vision or Cultural skill stealth.

 

+2 Penalty Perception levels: 6

+2 DCV: 10

3' Physical lim.: -10

-10 STR: -10

and probably -5 body: -10

so the max str fro a character of this race is 10 or so.

 

I said -10 str instead of using the formula in the book because...

 

A: as things get smaller STR to weight ratios increase (Read Guinness weight lifting)

 

B: To much realism can crush a game quicker than to much cinema any day of the week.