Edsel Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I am working on a history for my new Dark Champions setting. As part of the back story I need to have an early vigilante group operating in NYC around 1890. I have never been to New York, nor do I have much knowledge of the demographics of the early city. Maps are not a problem. What I need to know is; Where, in NYC around 1890, could such a hypothetical Vigilante group have sprung up from? What neighborhood or area of the city would such people have likely lived and/or operated in? It only needs to be a simple neighborhood protective organization... at least to start with. Anybody got some ideas for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Mm, it's off by a bit time wise, but having recently seen Gangs of New York on Dish, the thought that came to mind was Irish Immigrant related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Yeah, that'd probably work. But where in the city did these people live around that time? Was there housing around Central Park back then, or were the people living elsewhere in the city. Did Manhattan have residentual areas back then? What about the Bronx, Queens, etc. My though is that said vigilante group was originally founded to try and keep gang violence out of their neighborhood. Although 1890-95 is past the prime of the gangs from the movie, I believe that their were still some pretty high crime areas in the city during the period I'm looking at. FYI: The vigilante group that I create will eventually grow in power (while remaining secret) and eventually get covert government support. By modern day they have grown into a secret organization that battles things such as vampires, werewolves, etc. in addition to solving internal problems that the government wants quietly resolved. Sort of an Anti-crime, Anti-terrorist and Vampire Hunters Agency. Part of the reason that they'll remain unacknowledged by the government is that they also have a heavy religious influence (all those crosses and holy water for the vamps you see). Does NYC get much fog? I guess it does around the waterfront at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 A lot of historical vigilante groups were fairly...nasty. 1890's NYC...lets see. The subways were getting put in, trains brouught in livestock to huge underground slaughter houses, and newspapers were talking about abandoning the city. Sees all the horse-carriages left the city streets knee deep in..."concentrated evil." From1895-97, Theodore Roosevelt was head of the NYC police board...has to be a way you can use that. Add in a couple of the corporate baron types as villains/supporters, and you could have an interesting campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Have them "spring up" from around the Five Corners area, and have them be known as "The Five Coroners". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelleyCM Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 During the 1890s (and even now), wearing masks was illegal in New York. http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1074259239632 Something to think about! -Shelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomd1969 Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 No, New York City doesn't often get fog. The terrain isn't right for it. I live about 50 miles from Manhattan on Long Island. I had planned at one point to write a book on New York City for gamers--New York City history, cool maps of places to have super-hero battles, things of that nature. I had found a map at one point with all of the neighborhoods (SoHo, Tribeca, Greenwich Village, Little Italy, Chinatown, West Side, etc.) mapped out. I think a good candidate would be Hell's Kitchen--If I recall, that would be on the West Side of Manhattan. In fact, here's a web-page about the violent history of Hell's Kitchen--I'm sure there are others. I understand the neighborhood has improved a little bit--but that *is* kind of like saying "Hell is a little more bareable the last couple of years." I would give more, but I have to go to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks From1895-97, Theodore Roosevelt was head of the NYC police board...has to be a way you can use that. Add in a couple of the corporate baron types as villains/supporters, and you could have an interesting campaign. Yep, I thought of that. Also in 1902 Bat Masterson arrives in New York City to take a job as a columnist (sports, I think). He becomes (or was) a good friend of Theodore Roosevelt who later appoints him US Marshal for the state. Both of them are going to enter into my plot. While Mr. Masterson may not have been a paragon of virtue I'm sure he was much better than the like of Wyatt Earp. I make him a good guy and a benefactor. I need to research him somemore for all I know he truely was a genuine good guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Thanks tomd1969, the Hell's Kitchen site is pretty good and gives me some street boundaries, just what I needed. Wish I could find that map you mentioned with the neighborhoods indicated. Alas, too bad about the fog. I guess a vampire just has to raise his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 You need to read a novel called "The Alienist." Set in exactly this period (Teddy Roosevelt appears several times as a minor but important character), it deals with a serial killer operating in the slums of New York and has a lot of background information about the city. I can't recall the author's name, but it should be easy to find on Google or Amazon.com. It's also a great book in and of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 The Alienist by Calab Carr. Just went on Amazon and ordered a copy. It looks fasinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Edsel The Alienist by Calab Carr. Just went on Amazon and ordered a copy. It looks fasinating. It's very good. I'm hoping someone will do a movie of it someday, Johnny Depp would be a great Dr. Krezler. Pay particular attention to how poorly women and Jews were treated back then; it's difficult to grasp for someone living a century later. We've made at least some progress since then. There's also a sequel titled "The Killer Angel" which is also quite good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Imp loving this concept I kind of like the idea of a mixed group of immigrants who defend New York from the strange threats that arrive from there home lands lets see being lazy about concepts. A Jewish mystic and his golem, Chinese martial artist and herbalist healer, Latvian vampire hunter, Irish street fighter with the inherited power of a legendary Celtic king, Old money American descended from a line of English mystic protectors who funds the team and united them in there common purpose together they fight the forces of darkness that try to establish them selves in this new land. I think I'd also like to add either a native American or some one like Dustin Hoffman’s character in little big man a white man who was raised by them and the returned to white society and became a gunslinger. Oh and a huge former slave railwayman capoerist and last shaman of his now extinct tribe. Get a really good ethnic mix against massive racism of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Carr's The Alienist is a great read, and should provide you with good flavor for the times. Seems NYC was politically a little corrupt back in the day. The challenge with the ethnicly diverse group from the 1890s is all the other groups hateed each other. The Irish hated the Germans hated the Polish hated the blacks hated the Bohemians hated the Italians hated the French (and everybody hates the Jews, but during National Brotherhood Week....) What would compel a Mick and Wop to hang around with some Chinaman? (I apologize for the slurs, but I use them to prove a point). Would the supers find each others company safer than life alone at large? Why? Are they all supercompassionate and super-well-rounded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 self intrest I think would work there racist they all use the slurs buttheads maybe have even fought agsint each other in the past. yet there also the mystical defenders of there neigbourhood and something big and bad comes to town and no one man is tough enough to stop it either they join forces get past there bigotry or they all lose. eventually they will learn to respect each other even if they never get beyond there bigotry otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks A lot of historical vigilante groups were fairly...nasty. Yes, this was the first thing that came to my mind. It's most likely that a vigilante group operating in NYC at that time would have had a flavour similar to other "Nightrider" groups that existed elsewhere. That is, an undue concern to keeping "undesirables" in their place. Replace "undesirables" with whatever ethnic group you care to chose. Another likely pastime for vigilantes would be strike-breaking. There was some quite nasty stuff going on with detective agencies like Pinkerton's essentially hiring out mercenaries to beat and even kill union leaders. Organised crime got into the game too. In fact, they were so successful that they started taking over unions and running them themselves - hence the origin of labor racketeering. And then there's the other big scam - politics! At that time, big city politics in the US was machine politics at its most brutal. There's plenty of opportunity for different factions to use thugs/vigilantes to protect and encourage their supporters against their rivals. So vigilantes can certainly happen. The main problem is that they are probably such swine that any self-respecting present day vigilante would fill them full of lead. And that's a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by BoneDaddy Carr's The Alienist is a great read, and should provide you with good flavor for the times. Seems NYC was politically a little corrupt back in the day. The challenge with the ethnicly diverse group from the 1890s is all the other groups hateed each other. The Irish hated the Germans hated the Polish hated the blacks hated the Bohemians hated the Italians hated the French (and everybody hates the Jews, but during National Brotherhood Week....) What would compel a Mick and Wop to hang around with some Chinaman? (I apologize for the slurs, but I use them to prove a point). Would the supers find each others company safer than life alone at large? Why? Are they all supercompassionate and super-well-rounded? Such a group's members unusual natures might well provide sufficient reason for them to tolerate each other over time. If the characters are unusual enough to be virtual outcasts from their "parent" societies (As is quite likely, since most groups were not terribly tolerant of excentricity. Remember how Caine was treated by most other Chinese immigrants in "Kung Fu" when they found out he was a Shaolin priest.), they might stay together as a group. And fighting some larger terror might well bind them together on a more permanent basis. You can be very tolerant of someone who has saved your life or that of your family, even if he is a damn _______ (Fill in the blank.). Start with a villain or monster who is preying exclusively on recent immigrants of all races and ethnicities as a plausible reason to gather these unusual characters together. Perhaps the authorities are suppressing the story to prevent a panic, or even for more sinister reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Trebuchet Remember how Caine was treated by most other Chinese immigrants in "Kung Fu" when they found out he was a Shaolin priest. I thought it was the fact that he was a six foot tall white guy that threw them off. my wiseass aside, good point The may form as a counter-vigilante group, protecting themselves and their individual populations from a different vigilante group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Actually if the initial serial killer or what have you targets across "race" lines, then each vigilante might get involved independently and end up working together after some in-game in-character. Afterwards they might be a defenders-esque/LXG-esque "non-group" which bands together at need but otherwise do their thing. One of the vigies must have a posh mansion/manor for them all to hang out at of course, in the countryside just outside of the city proper where their chummy-across-prejuidice-stereotypes behaviour can go largely unnoticed. He/she should have a DNPC or Follower, Albert style that is in on the secret but doesnt adventure. That way if the vigie w/ the setup gets aced he conveniently left everything in the care of the Alfred-widget, with private instructions to make all applicable resources available to the group in the event of his/her untimely demise. Its clockwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZootSoot Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Re: Early NYC Vigilantes Originally posted by Edsel I am working on a history for my new Dark Champions setting. As part of the back story I need to have an early vigilante group operating in NYC around 1890. I have never been to New York, nor do I have much knowledge of the demographics of the early city. Maps are not a problem. What I need to know is; Where, in NYC around 1890, could such a hypothetical Vigilante group have sprung up from? What neighborhood or area of the city would such people have likely lived and/or operated in? It only needs to be a simple neighborhood protective organization... at least to start with. Anybody got some ideas for me? Five Corners. Watch Gangs of New York for ideas. Many of these groups were essentially vigilantes, just mix-rm up a bit and add some color. Bowery Boys, Plug-Uglies, Dead Rabbits, there's a whole mythology there for you to plug into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZootSoot Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by BoneDaddy Carr's The Alienist is a great read, and should provide you with good flavor for the times. Seems NYC was politically a little corrupt back in the day. The challenge with the ethnicly diverse group from the 1890s is all the other groups hateed each other. The Irish hated the Germans hated the Polish hated the blacks hated the Bohemians hated the Italians hated the French (and everybody hates the Jews, but during National Brotherhood Week....) What would compel a Mick and Wop to hang around with some Chinaman? (I apologize for the slurs, but I use them to prove a point). Would the supers find each others company safer than life alone at large? Why? Are they all supercompassionate and super-well-rounded? This is an overstatement. Well established immigrant groups, such as the Germans, were not particularly hated by those of English/Dutch descent. Irish-Italian conflicts belong to a later period for the most part. Eastern Europeans, while widely distrusted by earlier immigrant groups, did not have particular hotilities towards each other. Jews, Asians, Blacks, and American Indians were widely distrusted, scapegoated, and exploited, of course, but Blacks and Amerinds had long historical ties and Jews were widely regarded as quite acceptable in their proper place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Finished reading the Alienist. Its a pretty cool read. I keep intending to rent The Gangs of New York but I've been pretty busy lately. Perhaps this weekend. Wish I'd have saw it at the theater. There has been a lot of neat ideas on this thread and I intend to use some of them. Running a Hero game during this era could be really interesting. However, I intend to base my new game in the present day with the characters being members of an orgnization called the Conclave. My intent is to have a good background that includes the history of the organization since its inception in 1880's NYC. I probably won't devote more than a page to the pre-1900 events. Basically, the organization started out as a gang/vigilante group in post-civil war NYC. They probably eventually ended up with a member or two that were former Police detectives who lost their jobs because they were too honest. The group eventually tangles with a vampire. Gets involved with Teddy Roosevelt and, later, Bat Masterson. Eventaually becomes a covert group that gets support from the US Government, the Catholic chruch, the Episcopalians (sp?). So today you'd have an organization that covertly works mainly for the US government. Ferrets out undead. They also covertly work to eliminate criminals who the government can't seem to legally touch, and terrorists as well. Very Black Ops type of stuff. If publicly discovered the government would disavow their activities. Hopefully you get the general idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks From1895-97, Theodore Roosevelt was head of the NYC police board...has to be a way you can use that. Add in a couple of the corporate baron types as villains/supporters, and you could have an interesting campaign. You know, considering Teddy's combo of genuine athletic talent, hatred for crime and corruption, eccentricity, intelligence, wealth, and love for the common man -- I've GOT to wonder why no one ever tried using him as a early costumed hero (in a pulp or superhero universe, that is). Depending on when he died, using him in a team-up with a young Nikola Tesla (the mad scientist's mad scientist) would be great. For that matter, much of what I'm reading here sounds like it would make a great campaign or even a comic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightStick Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Just reading about this "as yet not-started campaign", is making me yearn for the first night! It sounds like it could even be better than the Omega Team. *****Trust me on this, The Omega Team Campaign will be VERY HARD TO TOP!***** I can't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Why cant I ever find a GM like Edsel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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