Avoiding Flash

[bryanb]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a question regarding Flash and the statement that at the GM's discretion a character can cover their eyes or ears to avoid a flash against that specific sense (in FRED under the description for the power Flash).

 

My questions are:

 

1. Under what circumstances would this happen?

 

2. If this were allowed (assume a flash vs sight group and the character covers his eyes), how is the action adjudicated? Does the character have to abort to cover his eyes? Is the protection absolute (ie. Stop all the Flash) or only partial (gives 2 points of Flash DEF for example). I know this may be effect specific but I am looking for a general rule to base my decisions by.

 

I realise this is very "situation" dependent but, like I said., I would like to know what others do to adjudicate this rule. Specifically does the character need to "use" his action phase to block against this attack (ie. cover his eyes) and is the protection complete or just partial?

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Daz

[TheEmerged]

PERSONALLY, I rule that if the character makes a PER roll to realize they're going to be Flashed in time, they effectively have 1 point of Flash Defense for every 5 points of INT -- as though FD were based on INT like PD is on STR and ED on CON. I do not require an action, but this can penalize other actions if I feel it is appropriate; for example if the character covers their eyes to avoid a Sight flash, they're effectively blind until the end of the segment (or the beginning of their phase, if they get an action this segment but haven't gotten it yet).

[Arthur]

I think that this is possible only if the character is forewarned somehow. He would have to have a phase available (aborting to this as a defensive action would be fine).

 

I think this is intended for the allies of a character who recognize that he has pulled out a flash grenade or somesuch (or he yells them a coded warning: "Code Yellow!").

 

Also, a precog could use this.

[bryanb]

Does this mean that the fact that a character fired a flash before is not significant warning enough?

[Snarf]

That's what flash defense is for. Eye covering and such should be something that happens more uncommonly and not nearly so automatically.

[Guest Kolava]

So you can buy flash defense with the SFX "covers eyes fast"?

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Kolava

So you can buy flash defense with the SFX "covers eyes fast"?

 

I'd allow it. Come to think of it, I think I've got an NPC speedster with this...

[MarioTani]

Originally posted by bryanb

Does this mean that the fact that a character fired a flash before is not significant warning enough?

 

For me it depends, if flash has to be effective you cannot just shrug off the effect covering your eyes without a significant warning.

 

So for example I would not let the player abort to cover his eyes. but I would let him do something like that if he had an held action and some forewarning.

 

It's not enough to know that tha character can use a flash...

 

let's imagine a fantasy settting where the mages biuld their spell on a VPP every one of them is able to cast a flash sight spell, if you let anyone evade the effect just covering his eyes the ending it's highly unfair.

 

Even more so if you let the other abort to it!

They could go on doing what they were doing and if the effect was a flash than they will cover their eyes effectively making useless the power at more than a "1 phase effect".

 

if by some means the players succesfully identifies that a flash power it's going to be used in the next few second I would leave him even abort to the next action to "cover his eyes", obviously preventing the abuses so if he recognize it and before the actual manifestation of the power has a phase and decide to act I would neglect him this chance.

 

let me explain myself with two examples.

1) A blinding arrow.

This is an arrow that upon striking asolid target explodes in a blinding light.

If the players do not recognize the arrow before it strikes (by any means, maybe some kind of preparation the arrow needs) they can prevent the Flash only if they have an held action, but if they succeed in recognizing the preparation I would leave them the opportunity to avoid the effect aborting, but if one of the players had an action between the moment of the recognition and the effective explosion, he would lose the opportunity to evade the flash.

2) a con of light spell

Normally a spell requires a little gestures or two and some spoken words, but it's not enough for me to represent a particular casting so the opponents are not entitled to cover their eyes.

If the spell had the incantation or the gestures limitation an opponent who know the ritual can recognize the spellcasting and even warn his side.

In My campaign where every spell it's done modelling 5 elemental fluxes I would rule that a person who can see the modelling (it's not a visible power effect) maybe trough a Detect Magic (sight) with an appropriate skill roll on a relevant magic skill (it depends on the SFX of the effect, in this case it would be the Magic: Light & Darkness) or with a familiarity with a relevant spell (he use the same spell or a similar one, it's the SFX the point here) I would let him abort to some kind of defense.

 

For the amount, I think that the way TheEmerged determines it it's a very good one, I will use it:)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by bryanb

Does this mean that the fact that a character fired a flash before is not significant warning enough?

 

I would allow a player to state in advance that "If DR. Light targets me, I will cover my eyes." However, he has no way of knowing if that attack will be a Flash, or something else. The drawback to covering your eyes is, of course, that the character will effectively be blind for purposes of avoiding that attack.

 

To me, this is the tradeoff. If you want to protect your eyes, you can't be as effective dodging the attack at the same time.

 

And there's nothing wrong with my character with Flash noticing that an opponent always covers his eyes if he's targeted by me. Hmmm...opportunity to coordinate attacks?

[bryanb]

The situation we had was one of the heroes attacking a single brick type villain...he would flash then use his NND until the brick could see (and was more likely to hit him back) and then flash him again.

 

My concern is that as a GM I could use this tactic validly but it might really annoy the player. We then saw the "cover the eyes" mention and had an argument for 45 minutes over the ruling. This is why I am looking for a general rule for "covering senses".

 

Based on what I have heard I am thinking:

 

1. The character must know the opponent possesses some kind of flash.

 

2. When villain attacks, character makes PER roll to determine if he identifies attack as flash. If failed he/she is hit. If successful go to step 3.

 

3. Character and villain make opposing DEX rolls to see who "got in" first. If villain wins character is flashed. If character wins he managed to cover his senses. Go to step four.

 

4. ???? This is where I am stuck. Is it an absolute effect? Does it cost the "hero" a phase?

 

What does everyone think? Any better ideas? Help??

 

I know this will come again when we play next and I would love to have some kind of ruling before then.

 

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

Daz

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by bryanb

The situation we had was one of the heroes attacking a single brick type villain...he would flash then use his NND until the brick could see (and was more likely to hit him back) and then flash him again.

 

Annoying but valid tactic, I suppose.

 

Originally posted by bryanb

My concern is that as a GM I could use this tactic validly but it might really annoy the player. We then saw the "cover the eyes" mention and had an argument for 45 minutes over the ruling. This is why I am looking for a general rule for "covering senses".

 

Perhaps that fact should be discussed with the players. After all, if it's a fair combination for a hero, it's also a fair combination for the villain.

 

Originally posted by bryanb

1. The character must know the opponent possesses some kind of flash.

 

2. When villain attacks, character makes PER roll to determine if he identifies attack as flash. If failed he/she is hit. If successful go to step 3.

 

I dispute this. What prevents Our Hero from covering his eyes in case it is a flash? And how does the character determine the villain has selected a Flash attack? Absent some specific cue related to the power, I believe the character must act on the info available - this is the opponent targeting him, and he's raised his hands (same effect for all powers in his Multipower, including Flash and NND).

 

If you cover your eyes and it was the Flash, you get the benefits (whatever that may be). If not, you don't see his shot so your DCV suffers.

 

Originally posted by bryanb

3. Character and villain make opposing DEX rolls to see who "got in" first. If villain wins character is flashed. If character wins he managed to cover his senses. Go to step four.

 

I'm inclined to view "covering your eyes" as a defensive action, so it wins if you abort to it.

 

Originally posted by bryanb

4. ???? This is where I am stuck. Is it an absolute effect? Does it cost the "hero" a phase?

 

This is two questions. First, extent of effect. I'd say the extent of the effect depends a lot on the nature of the Flash. Bright light? Hands over eyes ought to do it. Sonic boom? Hands over ears probably doesn't bloxk it all out. Tear gas? Hands over your eyes won't really help, will it?

 

Assuming special effects make it reasonable, I'd probably give the character 15 Flash DEF (enough to block all of most flashes, but a powerful sight flash still gets something through) or 1/2 reduction to the effect (some gets through, but not all).

 

Now, how long does it take? I'd call it a free action to which you can abort. If you abort, you still lose your next phase. If you use a free action in your phase, you have to do so before attacking, since an atack ends your phase, and you will be blind until your next phase (unless, due to stimulus from another sense, you decide to abort to take a free action and remove your hands - you can see, but that costs you your next phase). So if you want to go around with your eyes covered, you may well be immune to Flash, but you're also blind.

 

That's how I would rule it. There should be a pretty heavy penalty - if there isn't, why should anyone pay points for flash defense?

[Demonsong]

I think it is entirely based on the special effect. In the Fantasy Hero campaign I am running an enemy Wizard cast a Blinding Vapors spell. Effectivaly a 4D6 Flash vs. Sight with the explosive advantage. Describes as a softball size sphere of goop that exposed in a cloud of Burning Vapors. Covering ones eyes is generally not going to stop the vapors. Anyone ever been gased while in the military? I have many times (they call it training). Any way the players were not expecting it and there is very little defense even if you are expecting it, so I had some fun that session. Of course the party Warlock went out of his way to learn Burning Vapors and now it is a stable and often use spell of his. In the fantasy environment it is very effective for such a low powered spell (only 30pts).

[Dust Raven]

I handle this in a rather simple way...

 

Covering the eyes/ears/nose/or whater is just the SFX of a Dodge vs a Flash. If you didn't know it was a Flash, you can just Dodge normally, same effect either way.

 

Alternatively, if the target cover's up and is his (either the Dodge didn't work or it's an AE/Exp attack), I'll ask the target to make a DEX Roll. I allow one point of Flash Defense for the sense covered for every point the DEX Roll was made by.

[CrosshairCollie]

I would allow a character to use an action (either Held or Aborted To) to shield his eyes or cover his ears or pinch his nose to protect himself against a Flash. However, he's stuck blind (or deaf, or, uh, smell-less) until his next action (the same time a Dodge would cease being in effect). So, rather than completely negating the Flash, he merely reduces the duration.

[devlin1]

Sorry for the tangent, but....

 

Originally posted by Demonsong

I think it is entirely based on the special effect. In the Fantasy Hero campaign I am running an enemy Wizard cast a Blinding Vapors spell. Effectivaly a 4D6 Flash vs. Sight with the explosive advantage. Describes as a softball size sphere of goop that exposed in a cloud of Burning Vapors. Covering ones eyes is generally not going to stop the vapors. Anyone ever been gased while in the military? I have many times (they call it training). Any way the players were not expecting it and there is very little defense even if you are expecting it, so I had some fun that session. Of course the party Warlock went out of his way to learn Burning Vapors and now it is a stable and often use spell of his. In the fantasy environment it is very effective for such a low powered spell (only 30pts).

 

A little too effective, IMO. 30 points? Shouldn't it have an NND on it as well? It doesn't sound like standard Flash Defense would make a dent in it. What's the defense against this?

[Demonsong]

Yep 30 points. 4D6 Flash 20 points +1/2 Explosive = 30points (then spell like disadvantages)

 

By its own special effect it’s not NND. I am not even sure where you would come up with that. If you could explain you thinking I would appreciate it. As to what’s the defense against it?

1-Well first and foremost don’t get hit. People who have not encountered it before get a perception check (with a penalty) to notice that it is an area effect spell. If they make that perception check then they can attempt to dive for cover, if they choose to do so, just like any other area of effect.

2-Flash Defense Sight works well too. As matter of fact the lizard people in my campaign all have nictitating membranes that provide 5 points of flash defense vs. sight.

3-Arcane Defense is all so very effective against any type of magic attack.

4-Any Mana using spell caster can abort to attempted to dispel.

5-Finaly if that’s not enough the spell caster himself has to pass a magic skill roll just to cast the spell and then that to make a to hit roll to hit the desired target hex. Not really an defense in it self but still a chance that it’s not going to work.

 

In any kind of higher tech game any type of goggles would protect as well. But since it’s a fantasy campaign we will not count that one.

 

Hope that answers your questions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Demonsong

Yep 30 points. 4D6 Flash 20 points +1/2 Explosive = 30points (then spell like disadvantages)

 

By its own special effect it’s not NND. I am not even sure where you would come up with that.

 

I can see his point. The description doesn't sound like one where flash defense would normally have an impact. Don't the vapors get into the lizard peoples' eyes notwithstanding their nictating membrane? Similarly, wouldn't the vapors go around sunglasses rather than be dissipated by them?

 

From the spell description, it certainly sounds like it should be NND. But magic doesn't always work the way we expect it to, does it?

[Demonsong]

Don't the vapors get into the lizard peoples' eyes notwithstanding their nictating membrane?

 

Nictitating membranes are a protective (see through) eye lids, I would assume there air tight. It’s not a continuous power. Just a quick blast of vapors, if you will, that is deflected off the membranes. Any way that’s how I figured it.

 

Similarly, wouldn't the vapors go around sunglasses rather than be dissipated by them?

 

If you reread my post you will see I said goggles not sunglasses. I was thinking any thing that has a positive seal. From a diving or gas mask or ski goggles. As long as it doesn’t have vents.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Demonsong

Nictitating membranes are a protective (see through) eye lids, I would assume there air tight. It’s not a continuous power. Just a quick blast of vapors, if you will, that is deflected off the membranes. Any way that’s how I figured it.

 

 

 

If you reread my post you will see I said goggles not sunglasses. I was thinking any thing that has a positive seal. From a diving or gas mask or ski goggles. As long as it doesn’t have vents.

 

Okay, then this sounds very much like NND to me. Ski goggles aren't normally Flash Defense (yeah, they're tinted, but c'mon). The Flash you've built seems to have nothing to do with bright light; it's magical tear gas. Considering how relatively rare airtight eye coverings would be in a fantasy medieval setting, I don't think NND is unreasonable. Hell, even in this day and age, how many people walk around with swim goggles or gas masks?

 

By your own admission:

In any kind of higher tech game any type of goggles would protect as well. But since it’s a fantasy campaign we will not count that one.

So you see my point on that one already.

 

2d6 Flash vs. Sight Group, Explosion (+1/2), NND: Not vs. airtight eye covering (+1): 50 AP

 

...except that nobody can really get airtight eye covering in the setting. I'm just saying: NND's well within reason.

 

Anyway-- your game, of course.

[Demonsong]

The Flash you've built seems to have nothing to do with bright light

 

First off I challenge you to show me where in Fred in stats that all flash attacks vs. sight are based on light.

 

You’re reading way too much in to it. It’s a special effect.

 

It is nothing more than a flash attack, with a special effect that is different than what you think a “standard†flash attack should be.

 

In the rules it stats that at GM’s option a character can cover his eyes or ears (for hearing) blah, blah, blah……… I don’t have the book in front of me to quote. But the key here is at GM’s option. To be perfectly honest even if it was a flash attack the odds of a person getting there hands in front of there face before getting blinding are zero. Sorry human (even super human) reflexes are not faster than light.

 

I see where you are coming form but I don’t agree with your logic at all.

[JSenecal]

First off I challenge you to show me where in Fred in stats that all flash attacks vs. sight are based on light.

I'm sure it doesn't. And all flash attacks vs. sight aren't based on light. But the descriptions of flash defense make the assuption that they are protecting from light (dark sunglasses, rapidly adjusting eyes, etc.) So flash attacks that aren't based on light need an explination of why light based defenses still work against it. Generally this means that the flash attack is NND.

 

In your case, your world has very limited sources of Flash Defense, and they work as well against gas as bright light. So in your game NND isn't required.

 

On the more general note. I generally a character who's covering their eyes to be immune to light based flash attacks. But the character must decide to cover their eye's before knowing what the attack actually is. Guessing wrong is not good for the characters health. Also it takes either a saved action or an abort. This seems to be the most common opinion.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Demonsong

First off I challenge you to show me where in Fred in stats that all flash attacks vs. sight are based on light.

 

*sigh* Yeah, I know it doesn't. I never said it did. I can see how you inferred that, but that's not what I meant.

 

You’re reading way too much in to it. It’s a special effect.

...that makes this Flash nigh-invincible. If the only actual, genuine Flash Defense in the entire world is nictating membranes, then that's pretty powerful, IMO. I hope those lizard-guys carry loads of magical tear gas on them, because they're apparently the only ones around who aren't affected by it.

 

Instead of a Flash, let's make it an Explosive EB. It's a magic toxic corrosive gas that bypasses normal Resistant Defenses and is only warded off by Force Fields, Force Walls, and the scaly skin of lizard-guys. You can't tell me that doesn't call for an NND.

 

Sorry human (even super human) reflexes are not faster than light.

Agreed. That one clause in the rules seems to have caused at least one gaming group some problems. Of course, if they hadn't put it in, arguments would surely have erupted anyway. "Can't I cover my eyes? I know it's not in there, but...."

 

I see where you are coming form but I don’t agree with your logic at all.

That sounds pretty hard to do, but good on you for doing it.

[Rick]

A cloud of Tear gas could be Darkness W/a NND linked to it.

 

Spider-man can flash you W/his webs and your gogles would be useless in responce.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Rick

A cloud of Tear gas could be Darkness W/a NND linked to it.

 

Spider-man can flash you W/his webs and your gogles would be useless in responce.

 

Yeah, exactly. It's a Flash that totally bypasses normal Flash Defense. Although-- would that be an Entangle that only targets the head and bought with Opaque: Sight Group?

 

Man, I don't want to get into it. Anyway, I'm pretty much at my limit on this. I more or less said a few posts ago that whatever someone wants to do in his/her own game is his/her own business, but I've hardly lived up to that attitude in subsequent posts. Therefore, I'm out. Goodnight, and don't forget to tip your waiter.

 

-----

 

P.S.: Hey Rick. Another San Diego Hero gamer... huh. More of us than I thought (although to be fair, I was willing to believe I was the only one).

[zornwil]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

PERSONALLY, I rule that if the character makes a PER roll to realize they're going to be Flashed in time, they effectively have 1 point of Flash Defense for every 5 points of INT -- as though FD were based on INT like PD is on STR and ED on CON. I do not require an action, but this can penalize other actions if I feel it is appropriate; for example if the character covers their eyes to avoid a Sight flash, they're effectively blind until the end of the segment (or the beginning of their phase, if they get an action this segment but haven't gotten it yet).

 

Wow, I have a couple players who'd love this solution! Then again, I'm the guy with the insane INT PCs, the most bizarre and useless characteristic war ever seen! (Actually not useless, it's led to some very interesting game situations, but it still makes me laugh compared to campaigns I hear where people have STR and DEX wars).

 

Anyway, personally, I'd say that to be prepped enough to qualify, the character should have a reason to believe it would hapen and either have a half phase to spend or abort, and needs to make a DEX roll (but that last part is peculiar just to my game because my rule is that all actions in a phase, regardless of DEX order, are roughly simultaneous and DEX rolls are required for defensive actions like this to go off "in time").