the system

[Guest Praetorian]

I have a friend that told the HERO is a bad system and doesn't work well. I am wanting to run a super hero game and this system looked like it would be best suited to use. Can anyone that has been playing HERO or Champions for a while give me any input please? I don't want to put all the effort into learning a new system if it isn't going to work well....

 

thanks for your time

 

Praetorian

[Ghost Archer]

Re: the system

 

Originally posted by Praetorian

I have a friend that told the HERO is a bad system and doesn't work well. I am wanting to run a super hero game and this system looked like it would be best suited to use. Can anyone that has been playing HERO or Champions for a while give me any input please? I don't want to put all the effort into learning a new system if it isn't going to work well....

 

thanks for your time

 

Praetorian

 

Please don't take this as 'mean' or 'sarcastic' but 'if it isn't going to work well....' " You have a cadre of rabid HERO players here and most started in Champions and you think any one of us is going to tell you it's hasn't worked well?

Look, spend $9.99 and pick up Sidekick at your FLGS (Friend Local Game Store). I've been playing 22+ years and NOTHING has come along in all that time to even come close to what HERO produces. If you just want to see what it's all about, Sidekick was made with you in mind. From there, come back and ask what's next. You'll get tons of friendly help from all the members and Steve is a master of answering the REALLY hard questions.

 

Enjoy your experience and welcome to the best system on the market.

[RDU Neil]

Praetorian,

This is a long standing discussion. The Hero system is such that it can be very complex when first approached. On one hand, it has a very simple, unified basis... 5 pts = 1d6 effect.... but because this unified theory can be tranlated into nearly infinite number of "effect" (from laser eyes to magic spells to high STR, etc.) it can seem daunting and "mathematical" to some.

 

As to whether it "works" or not... well emphatically yes... it works. What may happen, though, is that the system takes a steep and long learning curve. It is not one I would recommend to a newbie group without at least one experienced Hero gamer.

 

To that end, they have just published Hero Sidekick. A smaller, paired down version of the full Hero System... one that supposedly keeps things as streamlined as possible (not very, with this system) and makes it easier for new players to get a grasp of what is happening. I'd suggest looking for Hero Sidekick. It just came out over the past few weeks. I've seen it in my LGS, but haven't picked it up because I really don't need it.

 

Just remember one thing. Nothing in Hero is absolute. There are probably a half dozen ways to "build" a power for a superhero, using a variety of the characteristics, skills, talents and powers available in the book. That can be the most daunting concept behind the Hero system. There is no "right way" to do something... at least not universally. As a GM, you'll have to decide which is the "right way" for your campaign and maintaining balance... and that is long learning curve for GMs as well.

 

I don't want to discourage you. I've been playing Hero for 23 years... but you should think about it in small steps. Start simple, and build complexity later.

 

Good luck

[freakboy6117]

every system has its strtegthsand weeknesses. It would help if you told us what system your most familiar with so we could explain how the hero system works diffrently.

 

in general I've found heros biggest strength and weakness is the flexability of the system, you can do just about anything but theres no right way to do anything so it can be tricky to figure out just how to do something.

[Monolith]

The HERO System has been around for 23 years so obviously it must work fairly well.

 

As others have said, the easiest way to learn about the HERO System is to purchase Sidekick for $10.00 and spend a couple of hours reading about the game. Then run a couple of combats with a friend using the example characters in the book. The complex aspect of the HERO System is character creation (due to the math involved during creation and having limitless possibilities), but once that's done game play itself is very straight forward and simple.

 

The HERO System is more for gamers who like to create, and who like to tinker, and who don't like to be limited by game system constraints (no wizards wearing armor, for example). The ability to do whatever you want is sometimes difficult for new gamers who are more used to restricted formats such as classes and levels. Most of us enjoy the freedom that the HERO System allows us.

 

I really suggest you give Sidekick a read and the if you have any questions there are many of us here willing to try and answer them.

[Guest Praetorian]

thanks for the input guys. I gotta get work now so I don't have much time to discuss at the moment. the system I'm most familiar with is unfortunately the d20 system. I'll hop back on and check the thread after work. again, thanks for the input.

 

Praetorian

[Steve Long]

On the HERO System Discussion board, someone just yesterday started a "Hero vs. d20" thread that addresses many of the questions and concerns you have, Praetorian. Check it out; it's got some great advice.

[Blue]

Grab a copy of the Hero System Sidekick and give 'er a try. It's only $9.99.

 

...I feel so cheap...

[Lord Liaden]

Praetorian, the suggestion to pick up the HERO System Sidekick is a very good one; but there are some free materials available here on the website which will give you an idea of what the system does and how it works. For starters, these links on the "Frequently Asked Questions" part of the site will explain some of the basic assumptions in the game, and provide examples of how to create certain effects.

 

Clicking on this link will take you to a webpage where you can download free .pdf documents which you may find useful. "Intro to the HERO System" is a five-page doc outlining the basic game-mechanic concepts used throughout the system. You may also get some help from "HERO System Genre by Genre," which explains how the system can be used to run many different game genres - superheroes, fantasy, sci-fi, pulp, etc. - and gives sample characters, spells, gadgets and so on for most of the genres.

 

Combat is the most mechanic-intensive part of the HERO System. This thread contains a couple of well-detailed examples of combat, one for Heroic and one for Super-Heroic level combat. Just scroll down to the posts by Pattern Ghost.

 

By the way, here is the "HERO System vs. D20" thread that Steve Long mentioned above. (Another great thing about Hero Games: the Line Developer regularly comes onto the boards to answer questions personally.)

 

As others have said, you're welcome back here with any further questions.

[Redmenace]

Everyone else has suggested sidekick so 'll pass along my two cents. I recently had a Mutants & Masterminds fan join my Champions game. Here are two tactics that smoothed the transition.

 

1.) I let the player look through a series of pre generated characters, mostly from Aaron Allston's Champions supplement and ran him through a brief 1 on 1 game so he could get the feel.( I tried to emphasize the Heros system strengths: Detail and Flexibility of action.)

 

 

2.) When it came time for him to build a character he repeatedly complained that he couldn't even look at the core rules, it reminded him of a chemistry textbook.

 

I countered this by flipping through the book till I found the end of the disads section. I kept the book open to that page and turned the book around. You see this? This is page 200 something , about a two thirds of the book and its all options and powers for your character. Imagine a D20 product that had 200 pages of feats and spells.

 

It didn't sway him immediately but it definetly got his attention.

[Guest Praetorian]

ok, guys, I have the core Hero system book, not the sidekick, already. should I get the sidekick book anyway and start from there? I have Champions and Champions Universe already as well. it doesn't seem THAT complicated to me, but I haven't read all the rules yet.

 

Praetorian

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Praetorian

ok, guys, I have the core Hero system book, not the sidekick, already. should I get the sidekick book anyway and start from there? I have Champions and Champions Universe already as well. it doesn't seem THAT complicated to me, but I haven't read all the rules yet.

It's not really that complicated, it's just a great deal of reading and a slightly different way of thinking about things from the effects-based idea. As long as you have 5th Edition I'd say just go with that. Just skip over many of the optional rules in 5E and focus your time on the basics of the game.

 

What I'd suggest you do before building any characters is read the combat sections of 5E and then take some of the sample characters from Champions and run a few mock combats. Only read the powers sections for the powers the sample characters have. Once you get an idea of how the system works you can start delving into the hard part of the game: character creation.

[ChuckB]

Overall , the system works pretty well. Here are a few pitfalls:

 

1 Over time , the players need to learn how the rules work (at least within their own characters).

 

2 How your players react to the speed chart will pretty much indicate how they will react to the system overall.

 

3 Use the suggested campaign limits and specifically don't let the difference in the Speed characteristic differ more than 2 or 3 points.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by ChuckB

Overall , the system works pretty well. Here are a few pitfalls:

 

1 Over time , the players need to learn how the rules work (at least within their own characters).

 

2 How your players react to the speed chart will pretty much indicate how they will react to the system overall.

 

3 Use the suggested campaign limits and specifically don't let the difference in the Speed characteristic differ more than 2 or 3 points.

 

Yeah... be wary of the Speed chart. I dumped it years ago for an Initiative roll based on the SPD stat. It has made the game much more enjoyable and functional... but requires a depth of knowledge on the rest of the system, because things like Recoveries, movement top speed, etc., are predicated on the Speed chart, and have to be modified. It's doable, but not something that I would suggest for new players.

[Guest Praetorian]

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by "campaign limits". is that the normal character maxima chart? sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm just trying to take all advice into account and see what it is you're talking about.

 

Praetorian

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Praetorian

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by "campaign limits". is that the normal character maxima chart? sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm just trying to take all advice into account and see what it is you're talking about.

 

Praetorian

 

It's not the NCM chart.

 

Up near the front of FREd, there's a chart that suggests ranges for many items for different types of campaign. These are pretty reasonable as starting points for your campaign. For example, I believe it suggests Heroic characters have Speeds of 2 - 4, which is a reasonable spread (I rarely see a 2 though). For Supers, I think it's something like 4-7 or 4-8. It also indicates what damage class range and defense range is reasonable for each type of character.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Praetorian

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by "campaign limits". is that the normal character maxima chart? sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm just trying to take all advice into account and see what it is you're talking about.

Campaign limits are the charts on page 15 of Fifth Edition.

 

Many different games have different limits. Standard Champions, for example, uses 350 points to build characters with the limits from page 15. A Galactic Champions game might use 500+ points to build the characters. A Teen Champions game might use 200 points to build the characters.

 

It's important in the beginning that all characters be built within the same limits. It's generally not wise to allow one character to have a 15d6 attack while everyone else is using a 8d6 attack. Things along those lines are important for first-time playing because players have a tendency to take advantage of things. Keep everyone close at the beginning, and then once everyone is comfortable with the game system then you can allow players to branch out more.

[Guest Praetorian]

ok, thanks for all the insight guys. keep it coming if you have more.

 

Praetorian

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Praetorian

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by "campaign limits". is that the normal character maxima chart? sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm just trying to take all advice into account and see what it is you're talking about.

 

Praetorian

 

Campaign limits can take a number of forms...

 

Starting points: Do you go with the standard 200 Base + 150 Disads = 350

or...

Keep things very low level. 100 Base + 150 Disads

or go higher?

 

It can also mean Active Point limits.

Since the game is point based, it is possible for a character to put ALL or a huge amount of their points into one power, making it very powerful. Example: Eye Beam Guy is a total normal, with few skills, who suddenly found himself able to blast amazing amounts of energy from his eyes. The player could build the guy with 50 pts in skills, and 200 active points in Energy Blast from his eyes. Very unbalanced, but without Active Point limits set by the GM (say, no power over 75 active points) it can happen.

 

It can also mean Damage Class limits. Sometimes powers can have lots of Active Points, but not really be unbalancing, but Damage Classes (how much damage any one attack can do) can more easily be managed, and are really more important for game balance, IMO. Example: Damage classes begin at 1 for 5 pts. Normal Damage Classes are 1d6 normal damage. Killing Damage Classes are 1 pt killing for the first 5, 1/2d6 killing for 10 pts, 1d6 Killing for 15 points (3 damage classes). Read the book to understand this, but DCs (damage classes) are basically the same all along. If you limit your game to "No more than 12 damage classes per attack" or something you can really keep things from spiraling out of control.

 

As a new Hero GM... I'd suggest reading up in Champions about the suggested campaign limits, and choose what you want from there. It is detailed exactly for new players/GMs like yourself. Come back with specific questions and page numbers, if you need further explanation and many people here will chime in.

[JmOz]

A Few other thoughts:

 

Start small, If you want to run a Supers (aka Champions) campeign I would sugest your first campeign be a 250 point low power campeign. If you want to run at the "standard" level (350) start with low and give extra XP, let the players know that after they get X amount of XP the rewards will be decreaced (Do this from day one).

 

Keep characters simple to begin with. Make a brick or blaster type. Don't worry to much about frameworks, maybe a Ultra style MP for attacks but otherwise just don't use them to start with.

 

Sometimes it helps when starting out to make a character in a familiar system and then try to convert them over

[Guest Praetorian]

ok, I've looked through the champions book and I see where it says that you can have 200 points plus 150 points from disadvantages. my question on that is, do character disadvantages and power limitations add together for that 150 points, or is that strictly 150 for disadvantages?

 

Praetorian

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Praetorian

ok, I've looked through the champions book and I see where it says that you can have 200 points plus 150 points from disadvantages. my question on that is, do character disadvantages and power limitations add together for that 150 points, or is that strictly 150 for disadvantages?

That's just Disadvantages.

 

Limitations reduce the cost of the powers they are applied to.

[levi]

Praetorian don't forget to check out the Free Stuff section of this web site for downloadable character sheets and other helpful stuff.

 

If the number crunching seems daunting for your group, maybe invest in Hero Designer. This program lets you set Campaign Guidlines, organizes all the character building info into handy tabs and handles all the math that often scares away D20 players.

 

If you can find it, the HERO System Resource Kit is a great thing for a new group to have with over a dozen handy tables including a To Hit Matrix and Speed Chart as well as a few battle maps to help out.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Praetorian

ok, I've looked through the champions book and I see where it says that you can have 200 points plus 150 points from disadvantages. my question on that is, do character disadvantages and power limitations add together for that 150 points, or is that strictly 150 for disadvantages?

 

Praetorian

 

Hail Praetorian!

(I would do the fist to the chest salute, but it doesn't translate well over the net.)

Monolith answered your question both accurately and succinctly, but there is more to the topic than that.

 

Since you are new to the system, I would like to cover a few aspects of it that seem to cause new GM's a lot of trouble.

Not in understanding, in execution.

 

Note: Everything from here on refers to Standard Superhero Characters. The points are different for other genres, but the basic concepts hold true. I just didn't want to keep saying "A Standard Superheroic Character" instead of "A Character".

 

Disadvantages and Limitations:

 

Disadvantages:

To begin with, as of the 5th Edition of the Hero Rules, a Character gets 200 points to buy all of their Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Powers, etc.

You can take these points a build a reasonable character with no Disadvantages at all.

(In the 4th Edition, a Character only got 100 points, and with the same maximum number of Disadvantage points available, characters came out to be 250 points TOTAL.)

 

Players being what they are, they usually want to build on the highest possible number of points, so they will want to take 150 points of Disadvantages, resulting in a 350 point character.

 

This is just fine. Disadvantages help define the character, make play more interesting, and give you, as the GM, a lot of plot hooks to keep things moving along.

 

(If the players are having a hard time following the clues to the mystery you set up so carefully, have a Hunted show up. Possibly to drop a hint, as well as a few well-placed grenades.

 

Can't figure out a way to get them to that darned hideout they are supposed to raid?

Have the villains kidnap a DNPC or two, and have the villains "force" them to come there to "trade their lives for the hostages".)

 

But, you must make sure that the players know that these are Disadvantages!

 

One way to do this is have them build a 200 point character first. Then let them add Characteristics/Powers and Disadvantages one by one, keeping the character in balance.

That will help them to think of "paying for" Power A with Disadvantage X. There is no real correspondence between these things in the rules, and getting rid of a Disadvantage later doesn't cause you to lose that Power, or anything like that. But, a Player will squawk less when their Hunted shows up for the 4th or 5th time, if they remember that those points bought them the Power of Flight. Otherwise, Players may feel sort of "entitled" to the extra points from Disadvantages, and think you are "picking on them" when you enforce them.

 

One general guideline: Disadvantages should actually be worth the points they give you.

Meaning that a 200 point character with No Disadvantages, should be roughly as effective, long term, as a 350 point character with 150 points of Disadvantages.

If a character gets roughly 40% of his Abilities From Disadvantages, then he should spend roughly 40% of his time and energy Dealing With those Disadvantages.

Otherwise, he got something for nothing.

 

Limitations:

First, read page 179 of the 5th Ed. Hero System Rules.

Second, have your Players do the same.(especially the big bold print in the left-hand column;))

Next, read the very useful chart labeled "Limited Power Guidelines" on page 194. This chart applies to the material above it concerning coming up with Limitations that don't fit any particular pre-made Limitation.

But, it is highly useful in determining how much of a pain something should be based on the points saved.

As you can see, a -1 Limitation should mean that the Power loses roughly Half of its effectiveness.

That means that if a character has a Power bought with an Obvious Accessible Focus (OAF -1), that the Power should be unavailable either 50% of the time, or every other adventure, or whatever you feel adds up to "Roughly Half of its Effectiveness".

That does not mean that the Focus must be constantly stolen or broken.

You can have thugs shoot the Focus out of the Hero's hand, forcing him to recover it.

You can have the Hero get Entangled by something that makes it impossible to use the Focus.

You can have a scenario take place in a high security building (Courthouse, Government Installation, etc.) where all obvious Weapons, Tools, etc., are taken at the door and held until you leave.

However you want to do it.

Just make sure that the players know that when they buy something with a Limitation, it WILL COME UP.

 

If a player wants all his Powers bought "Doesn't work in Water" and you are doing a desert campaign, either tell him that he has to pick a more likely Limitation to get the full point bonus, or that the average yearly rainfall is about to rise sharply.

 

Also beware of the "Limitation Shuffle".

Sometimes a player will buy something that looks okay like:

"Power only works in Magnetic Fields".

That is fine, until further down the character sheet you see:

"Change Environment: Create Magnetic Field"

That is not clever, it is illegal.

 

Final words:

I hope that it does not appear that I am saying that the relationship between GM and Player is supposed to be a hostile one. This is not true.

But, in nearly every group, there are some players who "play fair" and others who "bend the rules".

If you don't enforce things like Disadvantages and Limitations properly, then you are favoring those who "bend the rules" over those who "play fair", which is the exact opposite of what you want to do.

 

Good luck, and have fun.

 

KA.

[Killer Shrike]

The main thing to remember is to not stress over it at this point. Have fun with it. You are going to make mistakes, so just make sure everyone understands that upfront.

 

 

I think I would recommend Sidekick even though you already have the main rule book. I hate to have you spend 10 more bucks on a game you havent even played yet, but I think, judging from your questions, that you'll find that book much more manageable and easy to learn, which will make for a better experience for you and your players.

 

Then, when you are comfortable, the good news is you already own the main rulebook, so no harm no foul.

 

Good Luck!