What about the warriors

[Mr. R]

I usually lurk around these boards, but now I feel complelled to ask a question. Looking at all the threads, I see a great deal about magic systems and spells and etc. But what about the opposite number. I mean the warrios and the rogues. Magic is great, but how do you keep it so the warriors have their neat abilities to play with. What do you do in your campaign so that the hand to hand guys go "WOW! that is one mean ability."

 

Jerome

[DrFurious]

Re: What about the warriors

 

I usually lurk around these boards, but now I feel complelled to ask a question. Looking at all the threads, I see a great deal about magic systems and spells and etc. But what about the opposite number. I mean the warrios and the rogues. Magic is great, but how do you keep it so the warriors have their neat abilities to play with. What do you do in your campaign so that the hand to hand guys go "WOW! that is one mean ability."

 

Jerome

 

This is an issue that has occured to me as well. After a certain point a warrior or rogue character can't spend more points on combat abilities or skills without (potentially) breaking the flavor of the game. There needs to be a good balance between what a mage can spend experience points on and what warriors/rogues spend points on.

 

One option is to allow warriors and rogues to purchase quasi-magic abilities. The feats in AD&D are a good model but this can also alter the flavor of your game drastically. If you don't want to go with almost-magical abilities, you could make up a list of super-skills that these character types could purchase.

 

Another option could be the development of followers and bases. Warriors and rogues can develop castles and guilds as a place to sink experience points - althought I suppose that mages could do the same.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

All detailed on my website.

 

The main reason Magic Systems gain more attention is because they require a lot more attention to do correctly.

 

Its almost laughably easy to make a good warrior or rogue in the HERO System afterall.

[Snarf]

Re: What about the warriors

 

In my fantasy game, there are magic abilities in weapons that people with the right skills can use. So, buying magic skill or EGO is a good way to diversify a rogue or light fighter type.

[Black Rose]

Re: What about the warriors

 

If it weren't for the fact that he is awfully hard to get ahold of, I'd say go ask Nu Soard Graphite. He's done up some of the most interesting "combat abilities" I've ever seen. Can't even begin to cover it, but I'll try to describe some of it:

 

Take your Martial Art form and master it out, picking up several CSLs as you go.

 

Build a Martial Art MP, with all slots ultra, built off of specific manuevers, and RSR - whatever skill seems most appropriate (NSG liked Fast-Draw and Sleight of Hand). If your style uses a weapon, and almost all of NSG's did, you get a pretty decent MP on the cheap.

 

Define each power with a general CSL spread (all OCV/all DCV/even split/leaning towards one or the other/etc.) and a brief description of its appearance and effect. Usually you end up with something that would fit neatly on a 3"x5" card. Add prereqs to lesser powers (must have Cross Slash and Bull Run to purchase Grand Fork Crush) if you really want to.

 

As a side note, I think that part of the reason that there is little focus on combat and stealth powers is due to the usefulness of UMA and Ninja Hero; g-d knows I love them both.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

[Arthur]

Re: What about the warriors

 

I remember seeing something on the web about a bunch of ways to help warriors be more distinctive, interesting, and competetive. I wish I could find it and attribute it. However, the ideas were similar to ones I'd used before (but the web document had more ideas than me).

 

Some ideas:

 

KI POWERS: A martial artist can do near-magical things by control of Ki. Some options: Extra Time (to summon ki), RSR (Ki Control), Concetration (focus ki); Incantation (kiai). Typical powers:

 

Iron Fist: HKA. RSR, Incantations.

 

Stoneskin: FF. RSR, Conc to start.

 

Healing Trance: Healing. RSR, Self Only, Extra Time, Total Concentration throughout.

 

Walk Through Walls: Desolidification. RSR, one phase only, Only to pass through barriers.

 

Come to think of it, this is probably all well covered in UMA.

 

 

TOUGH GUY: Allow the iron-jawed fighters to buy small amounts of Armor (up to 2/2) to represent innate "toughness". I personally recommend an additional +1 Advantage due its extreme usefulness.

 

RAPID HEALING: Regeneration up to 1 BODY per hour. I have a House Rule where Healing has a base Reset Time of 1 Day. That is, the same Healing can only be done on one person per day. Regeneration is no exception. To increase the Reset Time by one step on the Time Chart is a +1/4 Advantage. Therefore, the 1/Turn Regeneration requires an additional +1 1/2 Advantage. I find that the values generated this way are far more indicative of the Power's actual utility.

Anyway, this also has the effect that slower levels of Regen are significantly less expensive than the 1/Turn version. You can actually save enough points to make it a viable option. The current rules really discourage constructs like "Regen 1 BODY per hour" which are quite common in the source material.

 

I'M THE [X] MAN IN THE WORLD!: Let characters buy one aspect of their characteristics (or a linked set) to superhuman levels. The Strongest Warrior in the World (Fezzik!) would have STR 35 and the Tough Guy Package (but would be limited to DEX 18 or so, max). The Master Rogue could go to DEX 23, SPD 6. Etc.

 

I'm sure Herodom Assembled can come up with plenty of other ideas. I sure don't have the market cornered on creativity around here.

[UltraRob]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Here's a thought...

 

In Fantasy Hero, they suggest giving wizards ratios of real points to points spent on spells as a way of making them more cost effective. (ie 1:5 ratio of the PC paying 1 real point per 5 points the spell would normally cost them, or a 1:3 ratio of the 1 real point per 3 real points the spell would normally cost.)

 

Now, what if we did that for Martial Arts "Special Techniques" instead?

 

Say I want my dude to have the "Tree Splitter" Technique, which runs like this:

 

+6DC HA, AP (+1/2), OAF: Sword of Opportunity (-1), 1 phase extra time (-1/2), Requires Meditation Skill Roll (-1/2): Active Points: 45, Real Cost: 12pts

 

Now, with a 1:5 ratio, it's gonna cost 2pts, which is waaay too cheap (but would be what it might cost as part of an MP Ultra slot with disads.)

 

A 1:3 ratio is gonna cost 4pts. Which puts it in line with most of the other Martial Arts maneuver costs, but still seems a little cheap.

 

And a 1:2 ratio is gonna cost 6pts. Which actually doesn't seem too bad. It reflects time required to learn the maneuver, and allows warriors to put together a few techniques without requiring the GM to let them start using Multipowers. (Which to me, is just asking for trouble as every game suddenly you have PCs adding on a new technique with the 2-3Xps they just earned....)

 

Any thoughts?

Rob

[Black Rose]

Re: What about the warriors

 

UltraRob, you could also require some sort or Perk to allow you access to certain "techniques" (granted, that implies some sort of formalised school structure, but I tend to like my fantasy China/Japan influenced). Write up some basic tricks that almost all the schools have, then a few that are unique to each individual school, then one, prehaps two that are only taught to the master's favourite pupils. In order to find Farmer Threshes the Foolish Grain (RKA, AoE-Line, with T'port, only to end of line) you have to first find out it exists, then who has used it, then what school they were of, then who knows it now, then how to get them to teach it to you. Alternately, you could try to figure it out all by yourself, but that would require many moons of hard research, and no real guarantee of success (Inventor rolls, penalties at 5ap/-1, bonuses if you have techniques similar to it [GM's call], base roll at one week, +1 per notch up the Time Chart).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

If you are going to use a 1:3 ratio across the board for powers, you might as well just give players more points to begin with and have them pay full price. Otherwise you are penalizing characters that dont want to build their character with a bunch of funky power-based manuevers.

[UltraRob]

Re: What about the warriors

 

If you are going to use a 1:3 ratio across the board for powers' date=' you might as well just give players more points to begin with and have them pay full price. Otherwise you are penalizing characters that dont want to build their character with a bunch of funky power-based manuevers.[/quote']

 

Well, the option would be open to everyone, but there is another reason for doing it this way...If you give the players more points to begin with they will make overall more powerful characters (higher stats, more skills, etc), the idea behind using this ratio would be to have them make fantasy-level characters (ie not NCM maxed out ones, which happens in higher point heroic games), but who have access to "funky power-based maneuvers" as you put it which are a little stronger than they might normally have access to at those point levels.

 

Isn't this what we're doing when we give 75+75pt (or less) characters access to "warrior" Multipowers anyways? I'm just making it so they are paying based on the power cost instead of per-slot.

 

Oh, and the other intent is to make it so buying these funky maneuvers costs more than it would for multipower slots, but not so much as it would for buying them outright. (Unless they had heaps of disads stacked on them, which might also be a reasonable way to do it.)

 

Rob

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What about the warriors

 

You can also put thresholds on points, or allocate points directly to categories.

[cyst13]

Re: What about the warriors

 

If your fighters no longer have anything to spend points on, perhaps you can stop giving them experience points. Nobody continues to improve their physical abilites forever. Quick! how many 70 year old pro boxers can you name who've got a good shot at a title? Wizards continue to improve throughtout their lives (for the most part) because their abilities are not as dependent on physical health. Dealing with this requires a certain maturity on your players' part and the ability to find role-playing pleasure in areas other than combat-dominance. Hopefully, though, any player who has run a character long enough to run out of XP options will have reached that level of maturity. (I don't offer money-back guarantees on that last claim)

[Rick]

Re: What about the warriors

 

I have been wupped up by one man in his late fiftties though, I'm in better shape, he has, for sake of arguement though, more levels.

 

We've never had problems W/the warriors being outshined in hero, even W/the cheaper spell options. Hero as a system is very favorable if you have lots of levels and end, like most warriors (atleast in our games, it's not unual for my monk instance to have cv's floating around 10 and upper limits of 15 when he dodges). Sure your average Knight or Samuri won't be as bombastic as the wizard or Shuegenja, but in the small close and personal fights he (she) will still kick as much as always.

[Snarf]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Nobody continues to improve their physical abilites forever. Quick! how many 70 year old pro boxers can you name who've got a good shot at a title?

Realistically, people don't improve forever, but keep in mind Hero simulates fiction. Check out 100 year old Master Pai Mai whoop Uma Thurman's ass in Kill Bill 2 for an example of when that can happen.

[tkdguy]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Pardon me for joining in this late. If you look at Ninja Hero, many of the characters have martial arts built as as a set of powers around some somt of framework. There's no reason this should just be restricted to Eastern-style combat, so have your warriors develop their sword fu this way.

[Susano]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Pardon me for joining in this late. If you look at Ninja Hero' date=' many of the characters have martial arts built as as a set of powers around some somt of framework.[/quote']

 

Prime example? Jiu Xing and his Taiji Mountian Sword School techniques.

[tkdguy]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Or Wong Fei Hung using his umbrella as a weapon. You can modify it so that it is a regular weapon, such as a baton.

[Susano]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Or Wong Fei Hung using his umbrella as a weapon. You can modify it so that it is a regular weapon' date=' such as a baton.[/quote']

 

Come to think of it, Digital Hero 19 has Shina Arakawa and her Flying Dragon Kenjutsu...

[Enforcer84]

Re: What about the warriors

 

UltraRob' date=' you could also require some sort or Perk to allow you access to certain "techniques" (granted, that implies some sort of formalised school structure, but I tend to like my fantasy China/Japan influenced). Write up some basic tricks that almost all the schools have, then a few that are unique to each individual school, then one, prehaps two that are only taught to the master's favourite pupils. In order to find Farmer Threshes the Foolish Grain (RKA, AoE-Line, with T'port, only to end of line) you have to first find out it exists, then who has used it, then what school they were of, then who knows it now, then how to get them to teach it to [b']you[/b]. Alternately, you could try to figure it out all by yourself, but that would require many moons of hard research, and no real guarantee of success (Inventor rolls, penalties at 5ap/-1, bonuses if you have techniques similar to it [GM's call], base roll at one week, +1 per notch up the Time Chart).

I plan on doing something similar in my Breath of Fire world, its a way to implement the "Master" system from the third and fourth games in the series.

 

The Masters teach Spells, Combat Techniques, Attribute Bonuses, or Talents

 

I was thinking that a character studying under a master has:

 

Student of Master Hitomi (1 Pt)

* +1 OCV (5pts)

 

They now have to perform some service to the master (quest) to gain the special technique.

 

* This is the Benefit of Being Master Hitomi's student, he teaches and preaches that the best defense is a good offense.

 

Characters can add master's anytime (the benefit points are taken from future earned or skimmed XP).

[DrFurious]

Re: What about the warriors

 

It seems to me that you can only spend so much on combat abilities before you begin hitting campaign limits. After that, warriors would need to spend their points elsewhere otherwise they'll vastly outstrip everyone in combat. Before you say that they'd need that to keep up with mages, keep in mind that mages have may more options to spend points on other than combat.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What about the warriors

 

Nobody continues to improve their physical abilites forever. Quick! how many 70 year old pro boxers can you name who've got a good shot at a title? Wizards continue to improve throughtout their lives (for the most part) because their abilities are not as dependent on physical health.

 

This is another fantasy cliche that you might want to promulgate in your game but I think is unfair on all other archetypes. All fantasy types seemed to have unnatural longevity. Look at Conan.

 

Your example of a 70 year old pro boxer would be just as relevant to 70 year old scientists. Damn few 70 year old scientists produce anything like their best work in their later years. Indeed, like sportsmen, if they haven't achieved something fantastic by the time they are 35-40 it is extremely unlikely they will do so.

 

However, like I said, this IS fantasy and I'd allow all my players to continue spending experience - though require maturity in how they do it and how they present the improvements.

 

 

Doc