EC balance fix

[Gary]

The single biggest limitation currently of EC's is the drain one drain all aspect of it. Smart players if allowed by their GM, can easily buy lots of Power Defense to minimize most of the problems.

 

A easy fix to this without outright banning power defense for people with ECs is to utilize a variation of the automaton defense rules. Players who have ECs or powers that drain together as a separate limitation, simply pay triple cost for Power Defense. Nice simple and elegant, and maintains game balance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Actually, I would have gone the other way of Power Defense, Only to protect EC -1. Or simply Power Defense @ normal cost.

 

Think about it, you pay a lot of points for an EC "Fire" and someone comes along with a Drain of 2D6 paying 10 pts and they drain an average a 7pts a roll with that Drain that sucks ALL your powers out, where the Fire guy who didn't use an EC has his powers drained one at a time .. he'll last longer. Seems to balance out in the end to me really.

 

You get a point cost savings in the begining to get all your Fire powers but can have them Drained out all at once too. OR you don't get a savings but you won't lose all those powers in one drain, it'll take multiple drains. Imagine if the Drain had Continuous on it .. the EC guy will lose them all in one attack roll, the Non-EC guy will have multiple attack rolls (and thus multiple chances to avoid the Drain) to remove all his powers.

[Gary]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Actually, I would have gone the other way of Power Defense, Only to protect EC -1. Or simply Power Defense @ normal cost.

 

Think about it, you pay a lot of points for an EC "Fire" and someone comes along with a Drain of 2D6 paying 10 pts and they drain an average a 7pts a roll with that Drain that sucks ALL your powers out, where the Fire guy who didn't use an EC has his powers drained one at a time .. he'll last longer. Seems to balance out in the end to me really.

 

You get a point cost savings in the begining to get all your Fire powers but can have them Drained out all at once too. OR you don't get a savings but you won't lose all those powers in one drain, it'll take multiple drains. Imagine if the Drain had Continuous on it .. the EC guy will lose them all in one attack roll, the Non-EC guy will have multiple attack rolls (and thus multiple chances to avoid the Drain) to remove all his powers.

 

 

With a EC, you're saving a lot more points than the guy who buys them straight. 6 40 pt powers saves you 100 pts compared to the guy without the EC.

 

Is the drain one drain all aspect of ECs worth somewhere between a -1/2 and -1 overall limitation on those powers? I personally don't think so. And IMO it wouldn't even be worth a -1/4 if the character has lots of power defense.

 

Straight Power Dude can buy the 6 40 pt powers for 240 pts. Or he can buy the same 6 powers in a EC for 140 pts, and then buy 30 pts of hardened power defense for 37 pts. He's pretty much completely immune to normal drains, and still has 63 pts left over to play with.

[Vanguard00]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Without a darn good reason I don't think I'd allow Power Defense to be purchased for the EC only. I'd likely apply the "Inherent" advantage in spite of the recommendations.

 

[edit] Just checked it out and it still only costs 175 points for those same six powers. You're still ahead of the game and I think it preserves rules integrity better.

[Dust Raven]

Re: EC balance fix

 

So, instead of saving points by putting them into an EC, you can sepend those extra points on Power Defense, effectively negating the penalty versus Adustment Powers.

 

So, where's the drawback? All you're suggesting is that we get less Power Defense, and thus increasing the chance of being Drained, even if the target of the Drain is something outside the EC.

 

And who puts 6 Powers into an EC? You need six seperate constructs to simulate what is essentially a single power? That's all an EC is, a single, complex power with several practical uses. The average number of Powers I've seen in an EC is around 3-4. Occasionally I'll see something with 6 or more, but in my opinion it should have been built without the EC because all of those Power just don't fit.

[GamePhil]

Re: EC balance fix

 

The single biggest limitation currently of EC's is the drain one drain all aspect of it. Smart players if allowed by their GM, can easily buy lots of Power Defense to minimize most of the problems.

 

Actually, I generally don't use the Drain guideline in my Champions games (in other settings where I allow EC's, I do). I find EC's balance nicely with Strength, so rather than just allowing Bricks to get the cost breaks, I'll let anyone with a cohesive enough conception to get it.

[Kristopher]

Re: EC balance fix

 

That's all an EC is' date=' a single, complex power with several practical uses.[/quote']

 

That's not what I consider an EC to be.

[Vorsch]

Re: EC balance fix

 

An EC is and always has been a Metagame constuct to award players with a tight sfx based character to buy his powers at a reduced cost, ie fire, electricity, cold magnetism, Etc.

 

For drains etc to affect all powers at the same time would presupose that they were linked.

 

If i have not stated it clearly enough, EC is a purely game mechanic constuct, and should have no bearing on game play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EC balance fix

 

The single biggest limitation currently of EC's is the drain one drain all aspect of it. Smart players if allowed by their GM' date=' can easily buy lots of Power Defense to minimize most of the problems.[/quote']

 

Seems to me it's a matter of opinion whether metagaming decisions like "EC is disadvantaged by adjustment powers, so I'll buy lots of power defense" are indicative of "smart players", as opposed to "Roll Players", "Metagamers" or "Poor Concept Players".

[Dust Raven]

Re: EC balance fix

 

That's not what I consider an EC to be.

What do you consider an EC to be? Based upon the game rules for them, this is basically what it is. You can't Drain one aspect of it any more than you an Drain one aspect of single Powers (such as removing the "does STUN" aspect of an EB, you either Drain the whole thing or not at all). Same thing with an EC. You can't Drain just one part, you Drain the entire EC, and can Drain it so long as there is only one Power involved in it that you can effect with the Drain.

 

Essentialy, it's just one, really complex Power, represented by the mechanics of several Powers but together.

[Dust Raven]

Re: EC balance fix

 

An EC is and always has been a Metagame constuct to award players with a tight sfx based character to buy his powers at a reduced cost, ie fire, electricity, cold magnetism, Etc.

 

For drains etc to affect all powers at the same time would presupose that they were linked.

 

If i have not stated it clearly enough, EC is a purely game mechanic constuct, and should have no bearing on game play.

You should reread FREd page 203. If you are actually playing with an EC but don't have any drawbacks from it, you're getting free points for doing absolutely nothing but writing up a character.

 

You might as well be saying that Limitations are just a metagame construct to award players who build their Powers to match SFX. They should save the points but the Limitations shouldn't ever come into play in game.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: EC balance fix

 

You should reread FREd page 203. If you are actually playing with an EC but don't have any drawbacks from it, you're getting free points for doing absolutely nothing but writing up a character.

 

You might as well be saying that Limitations are just a metagame construct to award players who build their Powers to match SFX. They should save the points but the Limitations shouldn't ever come into play in game.

 

I think Vorsh knows this. I certainly know it. I just don't care what the Rules say. I do not think of ECs as a strictly controlled thing. I think of them solely as constructs for tight SFX, not as elaborate single powers.

 

Fire Powers

Electricity Powers

Mental Powers

 

You build an EC for all the stuff you want but do not want to go in your MP like Flight, Defenses, Movement, nifty side power like stretching for the aforementioned SFX.

 

Points for free? Yes Please!

 

Drain -0 limitation. Steve? Hello? Steve? That was like the explaination to the Force. It did not need to be done. And it does not make its way into my games.

 

I am cool with this because I know the rules and decide to diverge, I am not uninformed about them.

 

Hawksmoor

[caris]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Essentialy' date=' it's just one, really complex Power, represented by the mechanics of several Powers but together.[/quote']

 

Dust Raven, I would say that it is your interpretation of what the rules for EC represent, but that the published examples of EC’s don’t agree with your interpretation. Really how in heck does Witchfire’s Helpful Witcheries EC represent a single power? Most of the examples of EC’s to be found in the books seem to be a continuation of the same old abusive construct philosophy. Multiple attack powers in a Multipower and major defenses and primary movement power in an EC. I find Multipower, even with the multiple power attack rule, to be more abusive due to the fact that I do not find the limitation on an all attack power MP vs. how much the powers are actually limited.

[Gary]

Re: EC balance fix

 

For those people who don't feel that ECs should all be drained together as an exchange for the point savings, my suggestion would obviously not be applicable. However, for those who play by the rules as written, it should be a good way to keep EC abusiveness in check without banning EC + Power Defense altogether.

[Gary]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Seems to me it's a matter of opinion whether metagaming decisions like "EC is disadvantaged by adjustment powers' date=' so I'll buy lots of power defense" are indicative of "smart players", as opposed to "Roll Players", "Metagamers" or "Poor Concept Players".[/quote']

 

There are many perfectly valid conceptions that allow for both EC and Power Defense. These conceptions just happen to have a huge advantage over the many perfectly valid conceptions that don't allow for both EC and Power Defense, or the conceptions that don't allow for ECs at all.

[Vorsch]

Re: EC balance fix

 

OK heres a couple of examples.

 

Hero 1

 

Flight

Force field

EB

 

Special effect telekinetic,

 

Hero 2

EC with flight, force field, EB

 

Special effect telekinetic,

 

Hero 2 saves points for having a tight concept driven powers but gets shafted by drains, hero 1 also with a tight sfx identical to hero 2 doesnt.

 

Its pure game mechanics/metarules whatever, conceptually identical characters. ECs were made to promote tight sfx driven characters and reward player with cheaper powers, i dont have a problem with that though it seems many do.

 

Hero 1 could just as well have 3 completely different sfx ( TK, magnetism and laser for example ) and a gm should allow it after all how exactly are supermans powers related?

 

Example 2

 

player submits character to GM, GM asks why do you have superhuman stats? player responds "because i have a superhuman physique " GM nods and approves character.

 

Later player is hit by 6d6 str drain, GM informs him "because all your Stats are based of the same sfx all your stats are affected even though the drain didnt have the +2 adv"

 

Players reply is unprintable

[Christougher]

Re: EC balance fix

 

One suggested 'fix' for EC's that I saw was the requirement to take a character disadvantage directly related to the EC, point value equal to the base EC cost. So the guy with a Fire EC usually had some type of cold/water weakness. The funniest one of those I recall seeing was the Psych Lim: Superstitious as the counterpoint to an EC of Luck powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EC balance fix

 

I'm still in the camp that believes this is not a problem and doesn't need a fix. But to me, the easy fix would be a simple house rule that, in addition to EC's automatically being "drain one drain all", the character's power defense can never apply to anything draining his EC - an automatic -0 limitation.

 

FlameGuy 1 saved a bunch of points with his EC, and his power defense only protects powers outside the EC. FlameGuy 2 spent more points, has no EC and his power defense is full coverage. You want your power defense to cover your EC? Buy off the EC and pay the freight like FlameGuy 2 did.

[Dust Raven]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Vorsch, you are confusing me...

 

Are you saying it's okay for you to get free points becaue you're playing the Human Torch, but I can't because I'm playing Buckaroo Banzai? Exactly why do you think this is fair and/or balanced?

 

Like any other point saving/getting construct in the game (Limitations, Multipowers, Disadvantages, etc...) EC should only save points at the cost of something else, such as effectiveness or how those powers relate to the mechanics. So what if it's a metagame balance? How is that different from Rapid Fire versus buying Extra SPD (only to attack)? They do the same thing, but the free one doesn't let you move and halves your DCV. If I don't want my suite of Powers being affected simultaneously by Drains, I don't buy them in an EC.

[Dust Raven]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Dust Raven' date=' I would say that it is your interpretation of what the rules for EC represent, but that the published examples of EC’s don’t agree with your interpretation. Really how in heck does Witchfire’s Helpful Witcheries EC represent a single power? Most of the examples of EC’s to be found in the books seem to be a continuation of the same old abusive construct philosophy.[/quote']

Oh, I agree absolutely! I hate many of the published examples of EC and really wish the writers would think a bit more about the character conceptions before putting pen to paper (or finger to keyboard, as the case may be). I guess it just boils down to how lenient a GM is as to what to allow into a single EC. Apparently the writers are very lenient.

 

You're probably right that it's just done out of habit from previous editions of the rules. They still note Fixed and Flexible Multipower slots with m's and u's too (but I guess there's no help for it).

[Kristopher]

Re: EC balance fix

 

**shrug**

 

I don't apply the Drained Together -0 Limitation to ECs, and I don't think they represent one complex power. I think the Drained Together stuff is too complicated to bother with on the fly -- Adjustment Powers can be a pain to keep track of anyway.

 

ECs are just a tool for completing the character concept on the points available.

[tesuji]

Re: EC balance fix

 

ECs are just a tool for completing the character concept on the points available.

 

if that were the case, why wouldn't you (or they) just give more points and avoid the whole EC issue?

[mr_azrad]

Re: EC balance fix

 

Oh' date=' I agree absolutely! I hate many of the published examples of EC and really wish the writers would think a bit more about the character conceptions before putting pen to paper (or finger to keyboard, as the case may be). I guess it just boils down to how lenient a GM is as to what to allow into a single EC. Apparently the writers are [i']very[/i] lenient.

 

You're probably right that it's just done out of habit from previous editions of the rules. They still note Fixed and Flexible Multipower slots with m's and u's too (but I guess there's no help for it).

 

I see charcters in the Hero books all the time I would never allow. Heros that do not meet my standards (writeup with "non limiting limitations and disadvantages", horrible uses of "usable against others", and outrageous EC's).

 

Some of you feel that EC represtents a tight group of special effects and others think an EC represents a single power with multiple effects. I think you are both right, but I would like to add this: I think of EC's as a limitation as well.

 

#1 If a character is observer using some of the powers in the EC it should be reasonable for opponents to suspect or even predict other powers of the EC. An opponent witnessing a "human torch" style character that has a "fire shield" and fire based flight, would likely assume he has a fire based attack as well (and might be ready for it, even though he has never seen it).

 

#2 You used the EC "limitation" to save points so don't complain when the power is not as good as seperate powers that didn't save points (don't complain when someone drains the crap out of it).

[tesuji]

Re: EC balance fix

 

IMO, ECs began as simply a means of encouraging tight character designs. As such, it tends to promote characters more like the XMEN (where a character has one power used several different ways or maybe two closely related powers) as opposed to "collection of neat unrelated powers" like Martian MAnhunter or even SuperMan.

 

Are they good for a campaign or bad for it? It really depends on how close to XMen or Martian Manhunter you want to have your game. Should Manhunter be weaker than Cyclops for the same "points" because Cyclops got an Ec while Manhunter didn't?

 

The net result from play I have found is simple... ECs are not disruptive to a campaign when everyone uses them. When you are loose with ECs, allowing the "bad evil powers" normally not allowed in and not being too picky about how "tight"" tight concepts need to be, everyone uses them and everyone saves some points.

 

its really only a concern when some concepts are allowed to use them and others are not. As some have implied, the characteristic based guys already save points with figured characteristics, and so a brikc won't in play been seen as flawed if he has no EC. (as if plenty of bricks cannot work a move and defense into an ec for their share of the ec savings pie.) if manhunter is not allowed, however, to use an EC while spectral boy is... you might see some balance issues or more likely, some "i just wont play manhunter" issues.

 

with an experienced player, its not really an issue of playing a sub optimal character. Most experienced players have character ideas a plenty and are savvy enough to figure out "this one is an efficient build under this system" or "this one is an inefficient build under this GM" and simply put, they will play the ones that are NOT "working uphill" against the system mechanics or the Gms preferences.

 

"But what about poor batman, the gadgeteer, who doesn't really even come close and doesn't have a characteristics savings base?" you may ask... truth be told, the character saves enough off of focus lims, which are not enforced to the same magnitude, that he makes out OK.

 

"Nut what about the martial artists who is kinda like the bat but fewer gadgets?" you may ask... his concept requires him to dump lots into the single most effective bang-fer-buck there is...dexterity... and most of the time, the Gm will allow him a higher investment in dex than others... so he plays out well.

 

Sure, it would be nice to see some relationship between the "sfx" based ECs the rules prescribe and the "helpful witcheries" actually used by the game... but hey, you cannot get everything.

[Kristopher]

Re: EC balance fix

 

I find that characters who A) don't qualify for an EC and really need one to fit under the point cap are rare on the ground.

 

Skill Mongers typically get one or more of the skill enchancers. Martial Arts are scarey effective for the cost. Gadgeteers and the like get plenty of savings for the Foci, and sometimes even qualify for one of the frameworks.