How do you get players to role play the genre?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Hey all,

 

I have a group that just can't seem to grasp the conventions of the genre no matter what I do or how much I try to explain it. They come from a Dungeons and Dragons background and the game just seems to degenerate into getting to the fight as quickly as possible. The players are rarely in character and when I try to run stuff that might lead to more roleplaying, it generally goes nowhere. And yes...I have told the players about my concerns, but they just don't seem to get it(or don't care). I'm at my wits end. Help!

 

Rob

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

find roleplayers first.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Sigh...thanks, but Hero gamers are rare in my area and I'm much more interested in "training/teaching" the current group. There MUST be a way.

 

Rob

[st barbara]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Are there role playing tips in the copy of the rules that you are using ? If so you could read that out to them. I admit that that is a bit heavy handed but it might work. Otherwise if you have some comics with the sort of characters that you want to see you could bring them along to a game and perhaps loan them to your players as "background reading". You could sit down with each of your players individualy and take some time to go over how you want to referee the game and find out the sort of things that the player might want to do with his character. Perhaps leting them follow their natural inclinations to create havoc . then letting it come back to bight them. might teach them a little bit about role playing. Otherwise er yell at them a lot ?

[assault]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Do they read comics? Are they familiar with the genre in the first place?

 

If not, you might have to ask why are you playing the genre with them!

 

Of course, you could always _introduce_ them to some of the source material if they aren't familiar with it.

 

Unfortunately, even players that _are_ notionally familiar with the genre don't always roleplay it correctly.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Do they read comics? Are they familiar with the genre in the first place?

 

If not, you might have to ask why are you playing the genre with them!

 

Of course, you could always _introduce_ them to some of the source material if they aren't familiar with it.

 

Unfortunately, even players that _are_ notionally familiar with the genre don't always roleplay it correctly.

 

Most of my players are familar enough with the source material and I've explained what I feel is in genre(I mostly go for silver/bronze age feel) many times. Of course, many of my players tend to prefer The Punisher, Stormwatch and the like....which is not helping at all.(Punisher is a psychopathic villain in my view.)

 

Rob

[assault]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Most of my players are familar enough with the source material and I've explained what I feel is in genre(I mostly go for silver/bronze age feel) many times. Of course, many of my players tend to prefer The Punisher, Stormwatch and the like....which is not helping at all.(Punisher is a psychopathic villain in my view.)

 

Rob

 

Hmm... Yes, that is a problem.

 

Well, one way of encouraging them towards the subgenre you want might be to encourage them to read some of the material you read! Leave some of it lying around to be read before a gaming session. (But remember - food, drinks and comics don't mix!) Pick good material, of course.

 

Consider reprint collections. Remember, the X-Men were good once. The New Teen Titans were pretty cool in the 80s, too. A decent comic shop should have something along these lines, even if they don't have this actual material.

 

And of course, you get to read it yourself.

[nexus]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Most of my players are familar enough with the source material and I've explained what I feel is in genre(I mostly go for silver/bronze age feel) many times. Of course, many of my players tend to prefer The Punisher, Stormwatch and the like....which is not helping at all.(Punisher is a psychopathic villain in my view.)

 

Rob

 

I think you have a basic conflict in what the GM wants and what the players wants. Maybe make the game a bit more Iron Age/Authority for them? Or, unfortunately, you might have to find a group more in tune with what you want. I've found its really hard to make someone play how you want them to do and it sounds like your group has some idea but just doesn't like the same style of play you do. Talk to the group next session about what they like and expect and what you would like to do (The gm has to be having fun too or the game suffers) and see if you can meet each other in the middle.

 

Edit:Heck, maybe if you have the time and energy, you can run an old school hack and loot fantasy game alternating with the Champions game?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I think you have a basic conflict in what the GM wants and what the players wants. Maybe make the game a bit more Iron Age/Authority for them? Or, unfortunately, you might have to find a group more in tune with what you want. I've found its really hard to make someone play how you want them to do and it sounds like your group has some idea but just doesn't like the same style of play you do. Talk to the group next session about what they like and expect and what you would like to do (The gm has to be having fun too or the game suffers) and see if you can meet each other in the middle.

 

Edit:Heck, maybe if you have the time and energy, you can run an old school hack and loot fantasy game alternating with the Champions game?

 

I'm willing to compromise a bit, but I don't want a hack and slash game. That's D and D to me....and if I wanted that...I'd be running that and save myself the headache.

 

Rob

[Descant]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Okay...

 

Had to say it...

 

I wrote you a big, big post in the other section, because I feel your pain. See the reply in HSdiscussion. So I get to make a point here.

 

I have done an AWFUL lot of role-play in D&D. It is not just a hack-and-slash game.

 

Okay... rant done. Go read.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I mostly go for silver/bronze age feel... Of course' date=' many of my players tend to prefer The Punisher, Stormwatch and the like....[/quote']That's your problem right there. IMO you're screwed. There's nothing you can do about it but get new players.

[Haerandir]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Well, it sounds like you've got a dual-layered problem.

 

A) You and your players have different expectations about how to play the game.

 

You and your players have different expectation about the genre.

 

Essentially, the problem isn't that they don't understand the conventions of the genre or know how to 'roleplay', it's that they're more interested in the tactical game elements and don't like the genre. Even if you can browbeat them into conforming to your idea of 'role-playing' (bearing in mind that there are many different intepretations of that word), they're not going to be happy forcing themselves into both abandoning their favored style of play and living up to your conception of the genre. Unhappy players means nobody's having any fun, not even the GM who is theoretically getting what he wants.

 

Frankly, given that you can't just magic up new players or use psionic surgery to turn them into good little Silver Age roleplayers, you're going to have to take the long view. I recommend that you (initially, at least) make a concession to them on gameplay style. Just run a few combat-oriented scenarios ("As you're sitting around your base/patrolling the city/whatever, you hear an explosion! Evil Dude is attacking the bank!"). Don't try to make them role-play out non-combat scenes which bore them. However, make a point of rewarding appropriately 'Silver-Agey' roleplaying in those combats. They'll probably accept that fairly easily, as you're catering to them on the "can we just cut to the fight scene" front.

 

Offer an extra experience point to the player who makes the best in-combat soliloquy. Give the player who saves an innocent bystander a free Contact or a few points towards a positive Reputation. Once someone has a positive Reputation, make sure to point out that it gives them an extra +1d6 on Presence Attacks. Create opportunities for characters to use non-combat skills to give themselves advantages in combat ("Everyone make a Deduction roll. OK, Billy, your character deduces that Evil Dude is trying to block everyone's view through the vault door while he fights. Maybe there's something going on back there." Then, when he goes back there, he finds a bunch of agents struggling to set up a portable energy howitzer or something.) Emphasize (subtly, if you can) the ways in which good roleplaying allows them to 'game the system' for advantages.

 

Then, after a bit, start calling for them to use non-combat skills in non-combat situations. Allow them to use Deduction and Streetwise to find the villains earlier in the session, before they attack the bank or kidnap the mayor. If one of them comes up with a clever plan or description, be sure to give him a bonus to any roll.

 

If the primary issue is that your players really are more interested in combat than interaction, they should quickly take advantage of any bonuses you provide, and go looking for more. Let them think that they're abusing your pathetic desire to elicit any kind of role-playing at all from them. Over the course of many sessions, their combative/gamist playstyle may eventually drift into something a little more like your simulationist/genre-focused preferences. The goal is to use a positive reward system to shape their behavior with the carrot, rather than the stick. Look for ways to get the system to encourage the kind of play you prefer.

 

Also, keep in mind that there will almost certainly never be a magical day when they all play the game exactly the way you want them to. We're mostly hoping for an approximation here. And, ultimately, you may derive as much satisfaction from exploring the system as you would from convincing the players to comply with your vision of the genre.

[Blue]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I'm lucky in that I've never (or at least rarely ever) had to enforce such things. As long as I can get them into the right character during creation ("You're a superhero--a 5d6 killing attack would be a bad idea because you're trying to save people") then everything is golden after that.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Okay...

 

Had to say it...

 

I wrote you a big, big post in the other section, because I feel your pain. See the reply in HSdiscussion. So I get to make a point here.

 

I have done an AWFUL lot of role-play in D&D. It is not just a hack-and-slash game.

 

Okay... rant done. Go read.

 

My apologies. Let me rephrase and say that D and D lends itself better to that hack and slash mentality. Good role players can certainly overcome this to be sure.

 

Rob

[Vanguard00]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.

 

Or something like that.

 

I would have to reiterate what's already been said. It sounds like you have cross-purposes between GM and players. I have very little fresh advise to offer except to talk to them. Find out what they want, what they don't want, etc.

 

Have a movie day/night and watch X-Men, Batman, Superman, animated Justice League or animated X-Men...whatever floats your boat. After the movie, discuss what was cool about it and what you're looking for. Create your characters after the movie so they have fresh ideas in their minds, and allow enough time for a short intro scenario that gets everyone on the same page. If they don't want to follow that particular recipe you're not going to be able to force them. Either relent and run the game they want or back out of the GM spot and let someone else take the headache.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.

 

Or something like that.

 

I would have to reiterate what's already been said. It sounds like you have cross-purposes between GM and players. I have very little fresh advise to offer except to talk to them. Find out what they want, what they don't want, etc.

 

Have a movie day/night and watch X-Men, Batman, Superman, animated Justice League or animated X-Men...whatever floats your boat. After the movie, discuss what was cool about it and what you're looking for. Create your characters after the movie so they have fresh ideas in their minds, and allow enough time for a short intro scenario that gets everyone on the same page. If they don't want to follow that particular recipe you're not going to be able to force them. Either relent and run the game they want or back out of the GM spot and let someone else take the headache.

 

True enough. And it should come as no shock that none of the other players want to run the game. Still, giving up the game seems like a failure on my part. I'm going to do some serious question asking as to exactly what they want. What else can I do at this point...you know?

 

Rob

[Vanguard00]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

True enough. And it should come as no shock that none of the other players want to run the game. Still, giving up the game seems like a failure on my part. I'm going to do some serious question asking as to exactly what they want. What else can I do at this point...you know?

 

Rob

 

 

What it comes down to is that it's just a game, but being a game it's supposed to be fun for everyone, GM and players alike. Turn the tables on them and let them know that you're unhappy in your current role. Don't try and explain the whys of the situation. Give them a general "You know, this isn't working out for me. We obviously have different ideas of how a game should be run" kinda thing.

 

I'm gonna have to stick with "cut bait and bail" for advice. Assuming that a discussion yields no real positive results.

[LadyChaos]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I third, fourth and fifth most of the people here. There are different styles of playing. Some like role playing. Others just want to unwind by beating up on something. It doesn't sound to me like your players don't know how to roleplay (you can roleplay in a fantasy campaign just as well as in a supers or horror or anything else). They just like the hacking and bashing.

 

Haerandir has some great tips. Sometimes the GM needs to bring the role playing to the player rather than wait for them to start up themselves.

 

I game with a large group. About half really enjoy role playing. Most like it, but not too much. One simply gets bored if there's "too much talking." I think our GM thought we all felt that way until we began individually approaching him and asking for more roleplay. We still do a lot of fighting, but we get a bit more characterization (that's how I think of it). Even the Big Basher had a great role playing moment when his DNPC wife (who knew he was a super) realized what that meant after Viper attacked and tried to kidnap her and the kids.

 

It may be catering to the players, but try and figure what they like best about their character concept and introduce some role playing around those elements.

 

Good luck!

[Storm Shadow]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I'm new on this of GM and I'm starting with Champions. Fortunately my players loves comics and such stories. Mixing it with cyberpunk + pos-apocalyptic world = my world

 

Do they want to fight? Maybe should appear Hulk... ok ok he is too strong maybe should appear some Green Lanterns to beat them all. So they will know they need some strategies, they should know well the team-mates. Maybe this is not the solution but funny

 

There are cool things out of the fight. Do they read Justice League International? It is a good example. But if they want to fight all the time ok, keep playing D&D

 

A superhero have many things in his live, not only his muscles. A superhero has a human mind but superhuman powers. It should be hard for the psych of every PJ. Added to the Disvventages (a love, enemies, honor codes, family, etc) it is enough to have many things to role out of a fight.

 

Sorry for my bad english

[UltraRob]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Actually, with superheros the solution is pretty easy. Just use the old regulations that Marvel Supers and the DC HEROS game used....You kill the baddie, you lose half (or all) of your XPs, you bring them in alive, you get full XP and extra benefits.

 

Once the players realize it's in their best interests to always bring em back alive, they'll start working on ways to do so in the most efficient fashion possible. Which is at least a change and start from the old Punisher motif. Once they get used to bringing the baddies back alive, they might even start to play a little more in-genre in general if you nudge them that way.

 

Sometimes it's best to just be subtle as a iron bar..."This is a superhero campaign, and if you kill people you don't get XPs because superheros don't kill people in this type of game unless they have to."

 

As a balance, you should also follow another DC rule and say..."If the villians try to kill you, and kill them then you get partial points because it's self defense, but they have to have honestly made the effort to kill you."

 

Good luck!

UltraRob

[assault]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Sometimes it's best to just be subtle as a iron bar..."This is a superhero campaign, and if you kill people you don't get XPs because superheros don't kill people in this type of game unless they have to."

 

I like this. I was aware of the various Marvel/DC rules along these lines, but I had never considered applying them to Hero.

 

It's so... obvious.

 

"This is a rule. End of story."

 

And Codes against Killing would still be worth points, because you would still have extra problems if you violated them, along the lines of Superman's big "I'm going to fly off into space and sulk".

 

Between this, and various genre-physics simulation rules, superheroic settings are looking rather easy to set up...

[UltraRob]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

I like this. I was aware of the various Marvel/DC rules along these lines, but I had never considered applying them to Hero.

 

It's so... obvious.

 

"This is a rule. End of story."

 

And Codes against Killing would still be worth points, because you would still have extra problems if you violated them, along the lines of Superman's big "I'm going to fly off into space and sulk".

 

Between this, and various genre-physics simulation rules, superheroic settings are looking rather easy to set up...

 

If you are doing traditional superheros, they really are.

 

Actually, another way to make XPs more valuable and keep things "in genre" is to allow players to spend their unspent XPs to do 1 of 3 effects...Usually these are at a cost of 1pt. (Or more if they are REALLY pushing things!)

 

1) Reroll any die roll in the game. (But only if they declare it within a few seconds after the roll is made.)

2) Not die. Lethal blows knock them out, and leave them unconscious, but still at 0 BODY or whatever is appropriate. (As long as there is a logical reason they can escape death...if they jump into a volcano or a sun...they are pooched unless someone has a good reason why not...)

3) "Control Chance"...for example, in my games if a player needs a train to be on time, needs a store to have a rare item, or other "co-incidences" to happen, they can either have me roll for chance or spend a point to make it happen. This can really make games more cinematic, and gives them some feeling of control in the story.

 

Since I started to use this system, my players complain if I don't let PCs do this in every game I run (not just HERO) because it adds to the game and the heroic feel of the game so much. Of course, it depends on the genre I am running...if I am not running a heroic genre but a horror one for example, there is no way I will use this setup...reality in that genre is harsh!

 

UltraRob

[UltraRob]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

Oh! And as an additional note, if you use this XP option in a superhero game, players will feel less threatened by death, and more inclined to take risks and do cool things because they know they probably won't die. (Player: "There's a flagpole on the side of this building I just jumped off of, right?" GM: "For 1Xp, there can be! And right under you too!") This should help some people's "STUN is my precious!" types get over their fear of diving into combat!

 

UltraRob

[Rene]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

My apologies. Let me rephrase and say that D and D lends itself better to that hack and slash mentality. Good role players can certainly overcome this to be sure.

 

Rob

 

They pretty much *admit* in the Dungeon Master Guide that D&D's "default" style of play is "dungeon crawling", i.e. kill the monsters, avoid the traps, get the loot. Of course, "default" don't mean all D&D groups play like that.

 

To Dr. Mid-Nite: Man, I feel your pain! I've been in very similar situations before. Mostly with anime/WoD/Image fans. Really, I think you only have two options. Try to meet them half-way, crafting a hybrid game between what you like and what they like, or simply give up.

 

You won't turn them into Bronze/Silver Age players, I just know. Guys with the kinds of attitudes you're describing are all but incurable. The Silver/Bronze Age superhero genre is a acquired taste, you had to be there to really enjoy it. Yes, sometimes it's possible to teach someone mostly ignorant of superheroes (who starts from a position of neutrality) but someone who actively thinks such stuff is silly is very hard to change.

 

Im my old group, I just gave up on most players, and retained a few I thought had potential if shielded from the other players' influences.

[rayoman]

Re: How do you get players to role play the genre?

 

No, but you can beat him with the bucket. The horse may still not drink, but it may be just a little satisfying. *

 

*This comment was tongue-in-cheek and not meant to imply harm to any animal.

 

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.

 

Or something like that.