How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

[Demonsong]

How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Do you use them?

 

Does your GM let you use them?

 

Do you think they are broken?

 

Do you have a character that, if not built around one, is perfect for one?

 

The reason I ask is because I am toying with a character design built around a multi-power attack. Basically a Minor brick with a STR of 40 and a 60pt multi-power with several adjustment powers. His prime move will be a punch & STR Drain. And befor I spent a bunch of time working the concept through to the end I figured I would ask people opinions.

 

 

Thanks

[Snarf]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I use them a lot in my fantasy game. Every spell is built with 2 powers that are used in a multipower attack.

 

I can't say much about the balance, but it seems to me like it would help balance multipowers against buying powers individually.

[Guest Kolava]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

They sound fine in theory, but I've never actually understood how two STR-using powers are combined in a MPA. Did I read FREd correctly...and does the STR actually apply twice?

[Agent X]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Do you use them?

 

Does your GM let you use them?

 

Do you think they are broken?

 

Do you have a character that, if not built around one, is perfect for one?

 

The reason I ask is because I am toying with a character design built around a multi-power attack. Basically a Minor brick with a STR of 40 and a 60pt multi-power with several adjustment powers. His prime move will be a punch & STR Drain. And befor I spent a bunch of time working the concept through to the end I figured I would ask people opinions.

 

 

Thanks

What's more effective? A 40 active point and a 60 active point attack against someone or a 75 active point attack against someone?

 

Your drain is one of those powers that creates a wild swing of effects depending on the target but let's keep this simple: An 8d6 Str attack and a 12d6 No Range EB attack against someone with even defenses, PD & ED, set at 25. Average Stun: 3 + 17 or 20 stun over. The 15d6 attack, Average Stun: 27.5 stun over. The multi-attack combo is basically like a 13d6 attack in effect.

 

Just check the effect of your attack against the average villain compared to other acceptable attacks and see how comfortable you feel about multi-power.

[Christougher]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Scared, very scared.

 

With Sweep, Rapid Fire, or Autofire, there's significant penalties involved that tend to hold things in check. With MPA, there's NOTHING.

 

The only possible restriction is the uber-optimized characters that usually hit the table who couldn't MPA if their life depended on it - All ultra slot attack MPs. If our inveterate power gamer knew we'd allow it, it'd be no time flat before he produced a character with a game cap EB, Flash, Entangle, and Drain MPA.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Scared, very scared.

 

With Sweep, Rapid Fire, or Autofire, there's significant penalties involved that tend to hold things in check. With MPA, there's NOTHING.

 

The only possible restriction is the uber-optimized characters that usually hit the table who couldn't MPA if their life depended on it - All ultra slot attack MPs. If our inveterate power gamer knew we'd allow it, it'd be no time flat before he produced a character with a game cap EB, Flash, Entangle, and Drain MPA.

You should be safe. Aren't you guys still using 4th Edition?

 

(And wouldn't most MPAs exceed your campaign's damage caps anyway?)

[TheEmerged]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Speaking as a former die-hard "one phase, one attack" GM that decided to try them -- they're more balanced than I expected. I think this is because the restrictions on them are more stringent than I expected.

 

Here are some things I've noticed since allowing them.

 

#1> Among the restrictions, the key one from a balance standpoint is that multiple slots from an EC can't be MPA'd together. Without that restriction, it's pretty obvious to me how that one could turn whack...

 

#2> Flash is a lot more popular than it used to be. Part of this can also be attributed to the 5th Edition changes in how it works -- but the bulk of it is that the players no longer have to decide between blinding the opponent versus damaging them.

 

#3> Variable slots in multipowers are more popular. They're still a little too expensive for the utility you get out of them IMO but it's a lot better than it was without MPA. It's a function of the same thing; this allows the player to make their main attack and then tack on the "extra" of their choice, such as Flash or Drain/Transfer or what have you.

 

#4> I'm seeing a number of concepts where the players are designing their concept around the "extra" power. Only one of the PC's currently is actually built this way (he stacks a UAA Darkness with his attack multipower) but several of the others have toyed with it.

 

#5> Generally, I'm finding that the "extra" power is either an NND, a Flash, or something else that doesn't work against the same defense as the "main" attack powers.

[DrFurious]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Do you use them?

 

Does your GM let you use them?

 

Do you think they are broken?

 

It seems to me that the introduction of multi-power attacks in 5th was designed to fix an element of the linked limitation. Before 5th, the linked limitation basically allowed you to use two powers simultaneously when you couldn't before. In effect, the limitation was giving you an advantage-like quality. By introducing the MPA, then linked actually becomes a limitation.

 

I have this nagging feeling that MPAs weren't fully tested for potential abuses. It adds all sorts of ramifications to the game that alters many implicit assumptions.

[GamePhil]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I like them just fine. They have to be monitored fairly closely, but they allow a number of things that weren't possible before.

 

Hmm, I know this statement is true, but no example is leaping to mind at the moment. Maybe later.

 

Scared, very scared.

 

With Sweep, Rapid Fire, or Autofire, there's significant penalties involved that tend to hold things in check. With MPA, there's NOTHING.

 

Except GM permission, explicitely mentioned in the rules for it, and having to buy all the Powers in it at full cost. The first is often discounted, and I don't like relying on it exclusively, but the second is pretty severe.

 

The only possible restriction is the uber-optimized characters that usually hit the table who couldn't MPA if their life depended on it - All ultra slot attack MPs. If our inveterate power gamer knew we'd allow it, it'd be no time flat before he produced a character with a game cap EB, Flash, Entangle, and Drain MPA.

 

If I used AP caps, I certainly wouldn't see any reason to allow someone in that was going to break them all the time by throwing 4x the cap as a single attack.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I'm quite fond of them, myself. In the campaign I'm currently GMing, it's a bit unfeasible to have attack powers that aren't Multipower Ultra Slots (due to low creation points), but in other campaigns, I think it's quite alright as long as they aren't doing the Elemental Control thing, which is illegal anyway.

After all, they both have to succeed on the same roll, and you have to crank out the END for both of them, they can only affect one target (unlike Sweep and Rapid Fire), and, as previously mentioned, it lets a character build a Flash that can be freely combined with their other powers, so their light-projecting character can inflict blindness on the victims of his wide range of energy blasts and HTH maneuvers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I think they're one of the things that's been missing for a long time. I forced my GM into letting me use them in 4E anyway, I wanted a gunslinger who could fire two guns at once...

 

Noting that you can't combine powers in an EC into a MPA, would you allow it for powers bought in the same slot of an EC since they are usually considered "one power" for a MPA? jus curious as I know I would...

 

I don't think they're unbalanced at all as they stand considering the restrictions on SLs, unable to combine HandAtt and RangedAtt and the All Hit or Miss idea.

[Southern Cross]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

So you can MPA two ranged attack Powers but you can't combine a melee & ranged attack in a MPA?

So a super-clone PC couldn't use Heat Vision & his STR on the same target?

Doesn't match the comics.......

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

So you can MPA two ranged attack Powers but you can't combine a melee & ranged attack in a MPA?

So a super-clone PC couldn't use Heat Vision & his STR on the same target?

Doesn't match the comics.......

 

Same target, sure. Same phase, no, and it seems to me that that does match the comics. I can't recall a time when I've seen Supes punching a target at the same instant that he's burning them with heat vision - it's always one or the other.

[TheEmerged]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I have this nagging feeling that MPAs weren't fully tested for potential abuses. It adds all sorts of ramifications to the game that alters many implicit assumptions.

 

It may come as a surprise to you (it certainly did to me) that not just a few HERO enclaves have always played with MPA's, although not with the restrictions placed in 5th. Hence the "Linked Debate" of 4th Edition, based on the argument that the Linked limitation is only a limitation if you could make multiple attacks without it.

 

I also have to say that while the ramifications look huge in theory, in practice -- with the limitations placed on them in 5th -- they end up mostly being offensive side effects.

 

Noting that you can't combine powers in an EC into a MPA' date=' would you allow it for powers bought in the same slot of an EC since they are usually considered "one power" for a MPA? jus curious as I know I would...[/quote']

 

Personally I don't allow combined slots in an Elemental Control because IMO it's nothing but a mechanic to bypass the minimum cost drawback of the EC.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

They sound fine in theory' date=' but I've never actually understood how two STR-using powers are combined in a MPA. Did I read FREd correctly...and does the STR actually apply twice?[/quote']

Except GM permission' date=' explicitely mentioned in the rules for it, and having to buy all the Powers in it at full cost. The first is often discounted, and I don't like relying on it exclusively, but the second is pretty severe.[/quote']

 

Kolava - the STR does apply twice (or more!).

 

The most broken MPA example I can think of is along these lines:

 

Brick

60 STR

First Knuckle 1d6 HA

Second Knuckle 1d6 HA

Third Knuckle 1d6 HA

Fourth Knuckle 1d6 HA

 

Note that Brick can, with one use of his STR, MPA together one 12d6 and four 13d6 HAs for 10 END!!!

 

Gamephil - that example falls squarely on GM permission; and note that FREd says that you're generally not supposed to use more than one attack based on the same Power. It really dodges the buying Powers at full cost restriction.

 

I consider this more a break in the STR rules than MPA, though. To fix it, only allow STR to add once. (shrug) It's contrary to the official rules, but makes a lot more sense to me.

[Christougher]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

You should be safe. Aren't you guys still using 4th Edition?

 

(And wouldn't most MPAs exceed your campaign's damage caps anyway?)

 

Pretty much, but said inveterate powergamer wants to move exclusively to 5th, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

 

And GM's permission is only a limiting factor when the players accept it as such. Since nearly everyone in the group GMs, they figure they can get away with whatever. I almost posted a rant on PC Scrutiny and Acceptance about it.

[tesuji]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Ok how about a slightly different question...

 

how do you comnpare MPAs to other attacks when considering your campaigns limits?

 

Consider for instance the following character concept:

 

Stinky the brick

strength equal to your campaign max, or say 60 strength in a standard HERo 350.

flash attack, touch only vs sight and smell groups at say 1d6 less than strength (to allow for buying the smell group)

Choking: NND attack (vs life support not needing to breath) also no range at the same ap total as the strength.

 

So, for example, at 60 strength, these would be as a multi power attack an 11 d6 flash and a 6 d6 nnd. for 12d6 punch, 11d6 flash and 6d6 nnd choking spores with an MPA.

 

How do you examine this character's power of attack vs your campaign limits?

if you use a DC limit, do you add up these three DCs to reach 35 DC or do you seeeach of them as under the 12dc limit and permit them?

If you use APs do you add them up to be 175 ap or do you see them each individually under the 60 ap total and permit it?

 

basically, do you see MPA as like a haymaker manuever which might allow you to exceed the damage cap on occasion or do you see the potential MPA as "an attack" to be kept under the limits in design phase?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I look at MPAs as the old 4E Linked power. As such the MPA would add up to a whopper of a power, but it would not break the AP cap. As it usually is used for a "little exta" attack power. The aforementioned Knuckle Sandwich MPA would be strictly and totally disallowed by me as a broken build, but the Stink punch would be legal for me with out the NND.

 

Hawksmoor

-GM approval can be and needs to be a serious limitation!

[sbarron]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

So' date=' for example, at 60 strength, these would be as a multi power attack an 11 d6 flash and a 6 d6 nnd. for 12d6 punch, 11d6 flash and 6d6 nnd choking spores with an MPA.[/quote']

 

Not that it answers your question, tesuji, but I think MPAs are somewhat restricted by the END they tend to burn. The attack you listed above would use up 16 END. That's a bunch. And since the character could miss, or might be fighting multple opponents (or any number of other things), he couldn't use this attack too many times without running out of steam.

 

Just another factor to remember.

[tesuji]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Not that it answers your question' date=' tesuji, but I think MPAs are somewhat restricted by the END they tend to burn. The attack you listed above would use up [b']16 END[/b]. That's a bunch. And since the character could miss, or might be fighting multple opponents (or any number of other things), he couldn't use this attack too many times without running out of steam.

 

Just another factor to remember.

 

OK, maybe its just how i see it but this is faulty logic...

 

i am going to burn in a combat enough end for enough attacks to eliminate my opponent. lets say this means for enemy X i need six hits to drop him.

 

if i fire those six attacks as two "three power" MPAs it will cost me no more end than it takes me if i fire them as six individual attacks over six phases.

 

"end used per attack" is not a limitation in the scope of the battle... "end used per enemy" is.

 

faster rate of fire (MPAs) means you spend end faster but you also spend enemy stun faster.

 

Now, if MPAs had some sort of "extra effort" where the second power costs double end, the third power costs triple end, and so forth, so that the "end used per enemy" went up, i could see this logic.

 

Right now, the end cost per enemy is the same, but the advantage is the enemy goes down quicker and the enemy by going down quicker gets fewer chances to hurt you. He also might get fewer post-12 recoveries to replenish stun.

 

NOTE: replace "attacks" with "hits" if you want to take misses into account.

 

Anyway, for my money, if i can drop my enemy in two phases with three-power MPAs instead of six phases with one power attacks, it looks to me like i spent the same end and have four phases to play with.

[tesuji]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

I look at MPAs as the old 4E Linked power. As such the MPA would add up to a whopper of a power, but it would not break the AP cap. As it usually is used for a "little exta" attack power. The aforementioned Knuckle Sandwich MPA would be strictly and totally disallowed by me as a broken build, but the Stink punch would be legal for me with out the NND.

 

Hawksmoor

-GM approval can be and needs to be a serious limitation!

 

Ok, i must confess, i did not follow you on this.

 

What do you mean by "a whopper of a power but would not break the AP cap"? Perhaps an example: Show me the biggest whopper you would allow in a game where you set the ap cap at 75.

 

Also, why would the NND in stinky's punch be disallowed when the flash was Ok? is it "three powers is too much"? (and so dropping the flash and keeping the NND would be fine?) is it that NNDs are bad and flashes are good? (treat that as humor, not insult please.) Why one and not the other?

 

Would any punch-plus-flash-plus NND stinky smash be permitted? In a 75 pt limit game under you, what would the numbers have to be to get a punch-flash-nnd stinky smash approved?

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Pretty much, but said inveterate powergamer wants to move exclusively to 5th, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

 

And GM's permission is only a limiting factor when the players accept it as such. Since nearly everyone in the group GMs, they figure they can get away with whatever. I almost posted a rant on PC Scrutiny and Acceptance about it.

Sounds like your group needs to hash out a few things before you all make the transition to 5th edition HERO. To make things fair and fun for everybody in any group, everyone needs to be on the same page so far as rules go. Me, I'd just say "No" and shelter behind the fact my own character is straight book-legal. It's only the flaky builds that are going to be powergamed anyway.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

Ok, i must confess, i did not follow you on this.

 

What do you mean by "a whopper of a power but would not break the AP cap"? Perhaps an example: Show me the biggest whopper you would allow in a game where you set the ap cap at 75.

 

Also, why would the NND in stinky's punch be disallowed when the flash was Ok? is it "three powers is too much"? (and so dropping the flash and keeping the NND would be fine?) is it that NNDs are bad and flashes are good? (treat that as humor, not insult please.) Why one and not the other?

 

Would any punch-plus-flash-plus NND stinky smash be permitted? In a 75 pt limit game under you, what would the numbers have to be to get a punch-flash-nnd stinky smash approved?

 

My example is a 4th Ed build and not strictly 5th Ed compatable as it breaks the MPA rule about ECs but this one was not considered broken at that time for that group; for one it has only 3 charges on the Add on powers there were some other things about it as well..such as being a part of my Watched.

 

75pt MP Ultrabands Offensive Suite

7u Plasma Bolt 15d6 EB vs Energy

 

67pt EC The Zenith Effect [3c] Linked to Plasma Bolt Slot of MP

3d6 RKA Explosion Pentretrating No Range Personal Immunity

5d6 Major Transform to 1 DEF 1 BODY Statue

 

This build I like.

 

As to the Flash plus NND I guess a can't accept the spore cloud effect as a MPA. I can accept it as an offensive Damage Sheild though!! There is little difference in application it just makes more sense to me built as a Damage Sheild though.

 

Hawksmoor

[tesuji]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

 

 

75pt MP Ultrabands Offensive Suite

7u Plasma Bolt 15d6 EB vs Energy

 

67pt EC The Zenith Effect [3c]

3d6 RKA Explosion Pentretrating No Range Personal Immunity

5d6 Major Transform to 1 DEF 1 BODY Statue

 

This build I like.

So, if i get you right, the "generalrule on Ap limits" would be each individual attack would have to be within the damage cap?

 

As to the Flash plus NND I guess a can't accept the spore cloud effect as a MPA. I can accept it as an offensive Damage Sheild though!! There is little difference in application it just makes more sense to me built as a Damage Sheild though.

Hawksmoor

 

Ok, so its not a balance issue, it an FX vs powers selected aesthetics issue, right? If another FX made the NND fit the concept more to your liking, a character could have the punch-flash-nnd power?

 

I was trying to throw in a "reasonable sounding FX" to avoid the "individual Gms aesthetics" thingy so we could focus on the issue of balancing those MPAs as opposed to the aesthetics preferences, you cannot please everybody! :-)

 

Thanks!

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How do people feel about multi-power attacks?

 

how do you comnpare MPAs to other attacks when considering your campaigns limits?

 

(snip)

 

for 12d6 punch, 11d6 flash and 6d6 nnd choking spores with an MPA.

 

(snip)

 

basically, do you see MPA as like a haymaker manuever which might allow you to exceed the damage cap on occasion or do you see the potential MPA as "an attack" to be kept under the limits in design phase?

I consider attacks in an MPA separately for damage cap/AP requirements, so I'd allow the above combo in a 60AP campaign. Similarly, with a (for example) power armored character with two multipower weapons suites, each with a 4d6 RKA slot, I'd allow that in an MPA.