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Upon Further Review: The Champions


Agent X

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I've noticed some peculiarities in the Champions.

 

Why did I notice these peculiarities?

I've broken down and agreed to run a Champions Game. The other GMs are not using the 5th edition Champions Universe and I decided to make it easy on myself and run a Millennium City Campaign. Anyway, I've made a 2 page(!) chart that summarizes all the Champions, including Kinetik, for quick review in combat. This is when I picked up on some issues for the team.

 

Psychological Limitations:Ironclad is overconfident. Nighthawk is overconfident. Kinetik is overconfident. Sapphire is a showoff. Witchcraft is underconfident.

 

How the heck do they survive EVERY seriously challenging battle? It looks like half the team will walk right into the brunt of it and not have a clue when to withdraw. At least the 5 Official Members have the teamwork skill.

 

Reputations: Defender is known as a Do-Gooder. Ironclad has a rep as being destructive and dangerous, Nighthawk is known as a reckless vigilante.

 

The Champions are the most prominent team in Millennium City and seem to have quite a bit of support yet they've got a dangerous, destructive alien and a reckless masked vigilante comprising 1/3 of the membership.

 

Sometimes, I wonder if teams should buy modifying reputations for all the members to reflect the overall standing of the team in game.

 

I'm still struggling to see how they can beat the Ultimates or hold off the Crowns of Krim. And PSI is located in Millennium City - Yuck!

 

Millennium City obviously needs a PC Team to deal with these threats. :eg:

 

Tangent: On the Quick Combat Chart - It's in MSWord Times New Roman font 9 using tabs of .3" and .8" margins around the page - the first line is name, str, dex, con, bod, int, ego, pre, com labelled like this "25STR" - the second line is figured characteristics with pd and ed labelled like this "20/10PD" meaning 20 PD and 10 resistant PD. The second line is finished up with perception rolls labelled like "Per11-", ECV, and any notable movement powers. 6" Running isn't typed as it is a default.

The third line is labelled attacks and skill levels are noted here.

Each attack gets its own line. A u is placed by an attack if it's a u slot. The damage, OCV, DCV, Endurance cost and any pertinent info is given on the line. After the lines devoted for attacks I type in notes in parentheses of any non-attack powers, combat skills, general role of the character, disads that have an effect on combat.

 

For the Champions, I averaged 8.5 attack lines per character with Nighthawk having the most and Ironclad having the least. Defender, Ironclad, Kinetik, and Nighthawk all fit on one page. On the second page, Sapphire and Witchcraft took up almost one half of the page. With the remainder of the second page, I inserted a table that set the order of actions and phases of activity for the team members. Then I listed stun and body totals with lower case o's as "bubbles" to be filled in and erased as combat flows (I also made a notation about recovery for each character in the list).Then I listed endurance totals for the characters, including Defender's power reserve and Witchcraft with and without her spell of vitality.

 

Why don't I just attach the document?

The material is copyrighted and I'm not sure DOJ wants me placing stats of published characters on the boards in ANY format.

 

Anyway, this chart is really easy to follow and covers the basics. I'm going to do this in my games from now on, instead of using the chart available in the Hero Resource Kit and I wanted to let everyone know a simple way to make their GMing a little bit easier - if they haven't already come up with something like this or better. :celebrate

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Mechanon hunts half the team on an 8-, and a single 18d6 EB will knock out any member of the team except Ironclad. Heck, Mechanon could spread the EB by 4 dice and stun half the team in a single shot. With a 15 OCV using its levels (Mechanon is overconfident, so DCV isn't an issue), hitting isn't a problem.

 

Likewise, Ironclad is hunted by Firewing on an 8-, and Firewing has a stronger EB than Mechanon (20d6). Firewing also has stronger defenses than Mechanon. The first time Firewing comes up, the Champions are toast.

 

Mechassassin may not be in the same league, but Nightwing better pray that he doesn't get caught in a dark alley with him. Nightwing is definately being hosed on his disads, because Mechassassin is definately more powerful than Nightwing, not As Powerful as indicated in Nightwing's disads.

 

Unless the Champions get a serious rewrite, similar to the one the previous team received in the 4th edition Champions Universe, they're no match for their Hunteds.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Champions should of been written as a more Avengers/JLA power level, after all as a pre ememient team they should individually be more than starting heroes. In comics heroes tent to be more powerful/equal power to there hunteds or hunted by one trick ponies that target a heroes weaknesses. Hero has always upgraded the vilains and down graded any Heroes, i supose so they dont overshadow the PCS.

 

Where are the Thors, Supermen,SS,GLs,Xaviers and batmans of the world? Heroes that are actually feared by the vilains not the other way round.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Mechanon hunts half the team on an 8-, and a single 18d6 EB will knock out any member of the team except Ironclad. Heck, Mechanon could spread the EB by 4 dice and stun half the team in a single shot. With a 15 OCV using its levels (Mechanon is overconfident, so DCV isn't an issue), hitting isn't a problem.

 

Likewise, Ironclad is hunted by Firewing on an 8-, and Firewing has a stronger EB than Mechanon (20d6). Firewing also has stronger defenses than Mechanon. The first time Firewing comes up, the Champions are toast.

 

Mechassassin may not be in the same league, but Nightwing better pray that he doesn't get caught in a dark alley with him. Nightwing is definately being hosed on his disads, because Mechassassin is definately more powerful than Nightwing, not As Powerful as indicated in Nightwing's disads.

 

Unless the Champions get a serious rewrite, similar to the one the previous team received in the 4th edition Champions Universe, they're no match for their Hunteds.

Yep. I dunno. The team just seems to be a great example of superheroes built individually that placed in the same team, only aggravate each other's weaknesses. Huge hunteds and tons of reinforcing psych lims just seem a bit crippling to me.
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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Champions should of been written as a more Avengers/JLA power level, after all as a pre ememient team they should individually be more than starting heroes. In comics heroes tent to be more powerful/equal power to there hunteds or hunted by one trick ponies that target a heroes weaknesses. Hero has always upgraded the vilains and down graded any Heroes, i supose so they dont overshadow the PCS.

 

Where are the Thors, Supermen,SS,GLs,Xaviers and batmans of the world? Heroes that are actually feared by the vilains not the other way round.

I disagree. The Champions are mostly intended as example heroes for beginning players so far as I'm concerned. It only makes sense for them to be built on the same 350 points as most beginning player characters. Making them "iconic" high powered JLA/Avengers-class superheroes would defeat their entire purpose in Hero. (And of course if you're playing a low-powered campaign with 250 point characters then the Champions are just fine as they are.)

 

I dislike them all as poorly designed and uninteresting characters, but since we don't play in the Champions Universe that's of little import.

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Guest Witch Doctor

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I didn't know those were the only choices. :jawdrop:

 

I don't believe anyone said they were, but pointing that particularly alternative out does help to add perspective.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Had forgotten they were meant to be examples of character creation.

 

Its just that back in the day of 3rd the example characters were of roughly equal power, even mechanon. He was built as a ubervilain but was on the same playing field as the others in terms of DC CV and def, no weaknesses but not Dr D......even Dr D was reasonable,dex30,14d6eb 35def wasent it?

 

The master vilains of the time werent blatententy in your face gods.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

For my own NeoChampions Universe ("not exactly the Champions Universe" -- has many elements borrowed from Aberrant, Brave New World (the game, not the book), DC/Marvel/Crossgen, and other sources) I tried modifying & powering them up.

 

I ended up rewriting them almost from scratch, throwing out Witchraft & NightDuck in favor of Solitaire and Seeker (renamed KnightSeeker), and adding Jaguar instead of Kinetik (partially as a check on one of my players, partially because I wanted to keep Kinetik a solo NPC). They all worked out into the 650-700 point range I wanted (PC's at 450).

 

While I'm pretty sure it was a conscious decision for Champions Universe writeups as a whole, their defenses are simply too low for the 12-15 DC opposition they will commonly be facing for the way I want combat to work. If someone else wants everybody dropping on the first or second hit that's their business.

 

And yes, I noticed the personality capatibility problems too. I just decided to run with it myself; the PC's are supervillains so I want them to be a little unlikable as a group.

 

The writeup that sealed my decision to start from scratch was Sapphire, who lacks several non-combatant elements appropriate for her non-combat status as a celebrity. This includes Reputation as a Perk and business-related contacts (my rewrite ended up with Well Connected and the contact/favor list from heck). Her multipower is in my opinion poorly constructed; a couple of her slots should be variable instead of ultra.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Had forgotten they were meant to be examples of character creation.

 

Its just that back in the day of 3rd the example characters were of roughly equal power, even mechanon. He was built as a ubervilain but was on the same playing field as the others in terms of DC CV and def, no weaknesses but not Dr D......even Dr D was reasonable,dex30,14d6eb 35def wasent it?

 

The master vilains of the time werent blatententy in your face gods.

The current incarnation of Dr. D is an abomination, and is designed as a techological god powerful enough to take on a team of 450-500 point heroes with a good chance of winning. I don't really recall the 3rd Edition version of the good doctor, but if your listed numbers are accurate then he was pretty butch compared to the typical PC. Most heroes in that era had 8-9d6 attacks, 15-20 PD/ED, 18-23 DEX. So Dr. Destroyer would have been substantially more powerful than any single hero (Heck, an average 9d6 attack would have zero effect on Dr. D with a 35 PD/ED.) And a 14d6 attack by DD would Stun or Ko most heroes in those days.
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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

The master vilains of the time werent blatententy in your face gods.

I certain understand from your pervious thread that you think the master villains are over powered but that is really not the case. Dr. Destroyer is the only one. Most others are not. Just running basic numbers we can see that a 6 man team will take out Mechanon in less than a turn.

 

Mechanon: 7 speed, 30 defense, 18d6 attack, 90 stun

 

6 heroes: 5 speed, 25 defense, 12d6 attack, 35 stun.

 

Phase 12: Mechanon hits, stuns and knocks out 1 hero to -3 stun, who loses his attack, but the character will get his free recovery and is at 5 stun. The other 5 heroes attack, and since Mechanon is not defending with his levels he gets hit by 4 of them for a total of 48 stun. Mechanon takes his recovery and is now at 72 stun.

 

Phase 2: Mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a second hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 3 and will recover on phase 5.

 

Phase 3: First knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Second knocked out her recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for 36 stun. Mechanon is now to 36 stun.

 

Phase 4: mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a third hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 5 and will recover on phase 8.

 

Phase 5: First knocked out hero attacks. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for a total of 36 stun. Mechanon is at 0 stun.

 

Phase 6: Mechanon recovers and is at 20 stun.

 

Phase 7: Mechanon recovers and is at 40 stun.

 

Phase 8: First knocked out hero burns stun for end to get in a final attack. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. 4 heroes attack, 3 hit doing 36 stun. Mechanon is now at 4 stun.

 

Phase 9: I think you see the writing on the wall.

 

Most of the master villains cannot withstand some 30 attacks per turn when they are only dishing out 7-8 attacks themselves. The numbers just do not give with that. And the 12d6, 25 defense, 5 speed were 4th edition starting character numbers too. If anything it seems like many villains have gotten weaker, not stronger.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

You know, the issue of wanting to see high-powered NPC hero writeups raises an interesting question: why do those of us who want to see them, want to see them? In a game, nobody wants a NPC to show up the PCs; they're supposed to be the stars of the show. So, what use are such characters? Benchmarks for the player-characters to be measured against? Ready-made high-end characters if players want to run in the "big leagues?" Or is it just for esthetics, because a supers universe should have mighty heroes?

 

(I have my own opinions, but I don't want to color anyone's responses just yet.) ;)

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Guest Witch Doctor

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I certain understand from your pervious thread that you think the master villains are over powered but that is really not the case. Dr. Destroyer is the only one. Most others are not. Just running basic numbers we can see that a 6 man team will take out Mechanon in less than a turn.

 

Mechanon: 7 speed, 30 defense, 18d6 attack, 90 stun

 

6 heroes: 5 speed, 25 defense, 12d6 attack, 35 stun.

 

Phase 12: Mechanon hits, stuns and knocks out 1 hero to -3 stun, who loses his attack, but the character will get his free recovery and is at 5 stun. The other 5 heroes attack, and since Mechanon is not defending with his levels he gets hit by 4 of them for a total of 48 stun. Mechanon takes his recovery and is now at 72 stun.

 

Phase 2: Mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a second hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 3 and will recover on phase 5.

 

Phase 3: First knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Second knocked out her recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for 36 stun. Mechanon is now to 36 stun.

 

Phase 4: mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a third hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 5 and will recover on phase 8.

 

Phase 5: First knocked out hero attacks. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for a total of 36 stun. Mechanon is at 0 stun.

 

Phase 6: Mechanon recovers and is at 20 stun.

 

Phase 7: Mechanon recovers and is at 40 stun.

 

Phase 8: First knocked out hero burns stun for end to get in a final attack. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. 4 heroes attack, 3 hit doing 36 stun. Mechanon is now at 4 stun.

 

Phase 9: I think you see the writing on the wall.

 

Most of the master villains cannot withstand some 30 attacks per turn when they are only dishing out 7-8 attacks themselves. The numbers just do not give with that. And the 12d6, 25 defense, 5 speed were 4th edition starting character numbers too. If anything it seems like many villains have gotten weaker, not stronger.

 

I haven't seen the fifth ed version of old rusty bolts, but this isn't how a fourth ed battle would run.

One of the things that made Mechanon dangerous was his MP of weapons geared to handle each unique character type (ie. using entangle on martial artists).

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I certain understand from your pervious thread that you think the master villains are over powered but that is really not the case. Dr. Destroyer is the only one. Most others are not. Just running basic numbers we can see that a 6 man team will take out Mechanon in less than a turn.

 

[snip combat example]

 

Most of the master villains cannot withstand some 30 attacks per turn when they are only dishing out 7-8 attacks themselves. The numbers just do not give with that. And the 12d6, 25 defense, 5 speed were 4th edition starting character numbers too. If anything it seems like many villains have gotten weaker, not stronger.

 

Mechanon is now one of the weakest of the "master villains." His attacks have substantially improved over his 4E version, but his defenses haven't kept pace with that increase. I suspect that he was written this way so precisely to allow beginning-level hero teams to have a chance to beat him.

 

There are a few villain or villain teams, such as 5E Eurostar, who are clearly weaker than their earlier incarnations. OTOH returning veterans Menton, Firewing, Grond, Dark Seraph and Black Paladin are all measurably more powerful, in offense, defense and versatility. Dr. D is certainly the leading candidate for "most grossly overpowered" in the current CU, but Takofanes and Gravitar are not far behind.

 

I do have to say that "overpowered" is a relative term. Dr. Destroyer is far beyond the capacity of the current Champions or any contemporary heroes so far published to deal with, but I've heard from a number of players here who assert that their teams of experienced heroes could hand the Doc his head. Certainly the upcoming "Champions 3000" hero team would have a good chance of doing so. Maybe all we need is writeups for a few more CU "head-handers." :)

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I haven't seen the fifth ed version of old rusty bolts, but this isn't how a fourth ed battle would run.

One of the things that made Mechanon dangerous was his MP of weapons geared to handle each unique character type (ie. using entangle on martial artists).

I understand but I was not using combat techniques for the heroes too. Martial artist throws Mechanon to get him prone so brick can put him into a half-nelson and everyone else can pummel him at the lower dcv. There are a lot of team techniques which can be used to defeat Mechanon. I was just using brute force to brute force.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

According to the article Pointless Champions, by Theron Bretz, in Digital Hero #3, the idea of point limits comes from the hobby's wargaming roots. He advises scrapping the point limit system and letting the players make the ideal versions of their characters instead of rough drafts.

To me, this is a good idea. Yes, it creates more work for the players and GM, but I think it's worth it.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

OTOH returning veterans Menton' date=' Firewing, Grond, Dark Seraph and Black Paladin are all measurably more powerful, in offense, defense and versatility.[/quote']

I would disagree with Menton. He is much weaker than his 4e version. He has 2 less speed, 2d6 less ego attack, and the same general mental powers. Grond also does not seem to be much changed. Firewing added a 20d6 eb but the endurance usage is a killer for him.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

According to the article Pointless Champions' date=' by Theron Bretz, in [i']Digital Hero #3, [/i] the idea of point limits comes from the hobby's wargaming roots. He advises scrapping the point limit system and letting the players make the ideal versions of their characters instead of rough drafts.

To me, this is a good idea. Yes, it creates more work for the players and GM, but I think it's worth it.

 

Depends on what kinda game you're looking to run, really. I think you get more interesting characters with 350points + 100 experience rather than 450 points...

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I would disagree with Menton. He is much weaker than his 4e version. He has 2 less speed' date=' 2d6 less ego attack, and the same general mental powers. Grond also does not seem to be much changed. Firewing added a 20d6 eb but the endurance usage is a killer for him.[/quote']

 

Gotta read the fine print on Menton. ;) His base SPD is 5, but he has +4 SPD only for his Mental/Telekinetic Multipower, making him effectively SPD 9! :eek: (Personally I don't think that extra SPD deserves the -1/2 Limitation it has, but you'd have to take that up with Steve Long.) :rolleyes: His OCV and the DC of some of his other Mental Powers is higher than previously, too. As I said, the increase is measurable, but it's not dramatic - Menton was already pretty scary.

 

Comparing 5E Grond to 4E Grond, 5E has substantially more CON, BODY, Presence, Recovery, END, STUN, two more HTH Combat Skill Levels, Lack of Weakness, and +2 extra SPD only for punches (with other Lims), reflecting his extra arms.

 

Yes, Firewing's 20d6 EB does use 10 END per Phase; but his Force Field and Flight are both 0 END, so the EB would likely be the only thing he's spending Endurance on. And when your END, REC and SPD are as high as Firewing's, you can work around that.

 

(Gee, I hope that didn't sound like I was dumping on you. Just wanted to substantiate my points. I'll behave now.) :o

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I haven't looked closely at Eurostar (I discarded them out of hand as being Over the Top; maybe they deserve a second look), but I (and a PC) discovered the hard way how much more dangerous Blowtorch is. I think Bulldozer and Oculon became much tougher and Ripper is obscenely more deadly. Earth Master (now a Crown of Krim) became dark and dangerous.

 

What I really noticed, though, is that the median power level in CKC was driven up from Classic Enemies by the guys who didn't make the cut. Consider Thunder & Lightning, Raccoon and Panda, Mongoose, Plague, Power Crusher, Powerhouse, Los Asesinos (and the Maine), the Fox of Crime, Shamrock and Sparkler. The Conquerors. Ou sont les goofballs d'antan ? They weren't pushovers, but they were generally friendlier and less dangerous than those who remain.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

Unless the Champions get a serious rewrite, similar to the one the previous team received in the 4th edition Champions Universe, they're no match for their Hunteds.

 

Well, you'll note that the 4th ed. Champions did get that re-write, primarily because they were also badly under-powered and over-Disadvantaged relative to even half-way competently designed PCs. Frankly, even the CU upgrade barely helped them in terms of raw combat power. It wasn't until Watchers of the Dragon and The Ultimate Mentalist that we got to see the "iconic, Avengers/JLA-level" treatments of Seeker and Solitaire, and none of the others made it to that level at all.

 

I once did a series of test fights between Seeker and a newly-designed character. I think I played the combat out 3 times. Seeker made it to Segment 5 of Turn 1 once. He also managed to damage my guy once, to the tune of about 5-6 Stun. There's a reason he was unconscious on the cover of all those supplements.

 

Nothing matches the all-mighty incompetence of Starburst, though.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

The current incarnation of Dr. D is an abomination' date=' and is designed as a techological god powerful enough to take on a team of 450-500 point heroes with a good chance of winning. I don't really recall the 3rd Edition version of the good doctor, but if your listed numbers are accurate then he was pretty butch compared to the typical PC. Most heroes in that era had 8-9d6 attacks, 15-20 PD/ED, 18-23 DEX. So Dr. Destroyer would have been substantially more powerful than any single hero (Heck, an average 9d6 attack would have zero effect on Dr. D with a 35 PD/ED.) And a 14d6 attack by DD would Stun or Ko most heroes in those days.[/quote']

 

Good chance of winning?? Only if he plays incompetent.

 

Of course, if you sic Dr D on a team of 500 pointers, you are doing something wrong.

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Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

 

I certain understand from your pervious thread that you think the master villains are over powered but that is really not the case. Dr. Destroyer is the only one. Most others are not. Just running basic numbers we can see that a 6 man team will take out Mechanon in less than a turn.

 

Mechanon: 7 speed, 30 defense, 18d6 attack, 90 stun

 

6 heroes: 5 speed, 25 defense, 12d6 attack, 35 stun.

 

Phase 12: Mechanon hits, stuns and knocks out 1 hero to -3 stun, who loses his attack, but the character will get his free recovery and is at 5 stun. The other 5 heroes attack, and since Mechanon is not defending with his levels he gets hit by 4 of them for a total of 48 stun. Mechanon takes his recovery and is now at 72 stun.

 

Phase 2: Mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a second hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 3 and will recover on phase 5.

 

Phase 3: First knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Second knocked out her recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for 36 stun. Mechanon is now to 36 stun.

 

Phase 4: mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a third hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 5 and will recover on phase 8.

 

Phase 5: First knocked out hero attacks. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for a total of 36 stun. Mechanon is at 0 stun.

 

Phase 6: Mechanon recovers and is at 20 stun.

 

Phase 7: Mechanon recovers and is at 40 stun.

 

Phase 8: First knocked out hero burns stun for end to get in a final attack. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. 4 heroes attack, 3 hit doing 36 stun. Mechanon is now at 4 stun.

 

Phase 9: I think you see the writing on the wall.

 

Most of the master villains cannot withstand some 30 attacks per turn when they are only dishing out 7-8 attacks themselves. The numbers just do not give with that. And the 12d6, 25 defense, 5 speed were 4th edition starting character numbers too. If anything it seems like many villains have gotten weaker, not stronger.

 

This is assuming several things not necessarily true.

 

One, that he won't use those levels defensively. At least relative to the Champions, he doesn't need them to hit.

 

Two, that he only uses the 18d6. While thats his most powerful EB, he has quite a few attackers that would be more useful against certain foes. The disintegrator slots in particular would be good for anybody they inflict Body on, and the cyberkinesis slot against any tech users.

 

Three, that he only makes one attack per phase, rather than doubling up.

 

Four, that he doesn't use his flight to limit how many opponents can attack him effectively.

 

Aside from that, those assumed stats for the opposition are awefully generous for 350 point characters, especially in defense. Of the Champions, only Ironclad has that much. Then again, the Speed assumption is a little low.

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