Save or Die?

[GamePhil]

Re: Save or Die?

 

Originally posted by Yamo

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

 

Drat, little errors. A minor re-write, here...

 

Absolutely, but if you really want the power, let's call it Death Effect, to work every time, you would need to design your world to work that way, not the power.

 

For example, it could be designed in a world where every living thing has a Body of 3, and any extra must be purchased with the Limitation, Not Against Death Effect. Let's call that a -1/2, such attacks are common in the games they exist in. This gives everyone with 10 Body 5 points to play with. Death Effect is then a 2d6 RKA, Standard Effect (6 Body), NND (defense is a successful CON roll or not having a CON), Does Body, Must Instantly Kill Target Or Has No Effect (-1/2). 90 AP, 60 RP.

 

That last isn't worth a Limitation, I hear you cry out. That would be true, but there are creatures in such games immune to such attacks, and these are allowed to buy off the Limitation on Body.

 

A less extreme method is to simply constrain how much Body can be bought to an absolute limit, then design the Death Effect to kill that character. So, an absolute limit of 30 Body just means you need to do 60 Body to the target. That doesn't get you your less than 100 points, though.

 

The simplest method is to just give anything that's not immune the Physical Limitation: Can Be Killed Instantly By Death Effect On Failing A CON Roll, Infrequently, Fully Impairing. Then just apply an appropriately high arbitrary cost to the Death Effect, and install whatever restrictions on its use that you want. This is in effect what the other game systems do, after all.

 

No, really, I'm serious. I would never do this, but it is a good example of establishing an absolute power in Hero with no changes to the rules.

 

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by DoctorItron

I think that dispelling twice someone's starting BODY would cause death

This is not technically legal. You cannot use Dispel on Characteristics. (5E, page 99)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the Philosopher has the right of it. If you really want an effect like this in your game, you need to do something to customize the world to make it possible. Another construct that might be useful is to define your world such that everyone is automatically assumed to have Vulnerability to Death Effects: 2x BODY for no points.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Another construct that might be useful is to define your world such that everyone is automatically assumed to have Vulnerability to Death Effects: 2x BODY for no points.

I knew I was forgetting one...

 

(OK, more than one, I'm sure)

[tenebre]

well the reason i like hero is it IS impossible to have such a power.

 

i mean Dr. DEstroyer should be ALOT hard to make drop dead than joe schmoe.

 

you chould take a KA with NND (con save)

make it like 100d6

 

of course its expensive but you are asking for a power that only a GOD should possess anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tenebre

well the reason i like hero is it IS impossible to have such a power.

It's not impossible. You just have to set up the ground rules of a specific campaign to make it possible if you wish.

[Victim]

Lol.

 

In DnD forums that I frequent, both players and DMs often have problems with instant death effects. Instant death effects inject a lot of randomness and can quickly end "climatic" encounters.

 

Not having finger of death is a strength for HERO, not a weakness.

[tiger]

With GM's permission could be a

 

6d6 RKA,

NND (defense Making A Con Roll)

If can roll is mad no damage is taken (-1)

 

Something along these lines. A NND stops any other defense from working, But your want to add something about if the Con roll is made. Though as a GM I wouldn't allow a "save or die" anyway. I didn't like them in D&D.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Victim

Lol.

 

In DnD forums that I frequent, both players and DMs often have problems with instant death effects. Instant death effects inject a lot of randomness and can quickly end "climatic" encounters.

 

Not having finger of death is a strength for HERO, not a weakness.

 

I agree. Take the intermittent class balance arguments on the DnD boards that inevitably introduce the defense that "In head-to-head combat, Class X beats Class Y about 50% of the time."

 

As I'm fond of pointing out, especially when both classes are casting classes (say, psion versus wizard), this sort of duel scenario inevitably comes down to who fails their Save first. If the affected Saves are identical/close, no wonder the dueling results are about even.

[SuperPheemy]

About Save or Die

 

One thing to consider with the D&D Save or Die spells and effects is they do not exist in a vacuum. For example, Disintegrate is a sixth level arcane spell. Thus, a spellcaster would need to be at least 11th level to cast the spell. At 11th level, characters are experienced enough to be assumed to have resources capable of counteracting the effect, either through magic items, defensive spells, or high bonuses to saving throws.

 

I think this is a good exercise to undertake, though. It shows how HERO can be used to create effects from other games without resorting to houseruling. (In fact, though I won't tackle the challenge myself, it is possible to define in HERO terms the benefits of each class and level in Dungeons and Dragons, thereby allowing us to draw a rough parallel in the amount of game play requried to bring a character from first level to eleventh in a HERO environment.)

[Arthur]

Originally posted by tiger

With GM's permission could be a

 

6d6 RKA,

NND (defense Making A Con Roll)

If can roll is mad no damage is taken (-1)

 

Nicely done. That's the cleanest way I've seen.

 

However, that Limitation is not valid. An NND must have a defense by definition.

 

You also need the Does BODY Advantage.

 

You might want to add a Lim for "must put target at 2xBODY or does no damage" depending on the effect you want. That'd be about a -1/2.

 

That's 270 AP. Even with a bunch of Lims, it would still be close to triple digits. In a setting where all spells have to take RSR (very common and a really good idea, IMO), that's -27 to skill.

 

Furthermore, imagine the rep the character would acquire. "In the name of finodh! We have to take that guy out NOW!" Mr. Primary Target.

[SuperPheemy]

Quick OT tangent.

 

The villains in my D&D campaign have a battle cry; "KILL THE MAGE FIRST!!!!" They've yet to succeed (the characters do a good job of ensuring their fire-platform wizard remains well-protected) but still, it's made for a very angry and bitter Wizard. To the point where he gloats and trash-talks every opponent he kills. "Kill the mage first eh? Who's killin who? Huh? Huh????"

[Alibear]

I had a thought last night when trying to sleep. Why not just make it a big RKA with the limitation "all or nothing".

 

Either you kill the target outright, i.e. -10 body for someone with 10 body, or you have no effect at all!.

 

No saving throw but the bigger they are the harder it is to kill them. You would need to roll 30 body to kill someone with 15 body and it would be like them "making a saving throw" if you rolled less than 30!

 

What da ya think?

[tenebre]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

It's not impossible. You just have to set up the ground rules of a specific campaign to make it possible if you wish.

 

I meant that in a good way.

 

It is impossible in the sense even with a 100d6 killing attack.

 

you could have some god that had 2000 body.

 

thats all i meant by impossible.

 

I always hated running a module to see the infamous save or die.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tenebre

I meant that in a good way.

I know. You think not having an "instant kill" effect is a good thing, and I might agree with you. But it is possible if someone who doesn't think its absence is a good thing chooses to set up their campaign ground rules to facilitate it.

I always hated running a module to see the infamous save or die.

So you wouldn't set up your campaign to allow it.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by tenebre

I meant that in a good way.

 

It is impossible in the sense even with a 100d6 killing attack.

 

you could have some god that had 2000 body.

 

Traditionally, the D&D gods and demi-gods had immunity to a lot of the instant kill stuff. A high enough CON in D&D gave you immunity to poisons and stuff.

 

In theory, if you really wanted an instant kill, you just have to hit the guy hard enough with whatever special effect you want.

[Chris Goodwin]

13d6+1 Killing Attack

 

NND, Does Body (defense is CON roll)

 

Standard Effect

 

Hit target with this. If he has 20 BODY or less, and misses his CON roll, he dies.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Mind if someone that's also a 3rd Edition Geek chimes in?

 

That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure.

 

 

Please provide me with a link: I'm very interested in finding out more about this.

 

My (oft-quoted) personal stance on d20 after running a year long campaign from 1st to 16th level and playing in a campaing from 1st to 15th level has been that it really starts to fall apart at 12th level and gets worse from there on. I'd love to get some corroboration that this isnt just my perception, but is perhaps based on something more concrete (such as no play testing beyond 11th level was performed)........

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Please provide me with a link: I'm very interested in finding out more about this.

 

My (oft-quoted) personal stance on d20 after running a year long campaign from 1st to 16th level and playing in a campaing from 1st to 15th level has been that it really starts to fall apart at 12th level and gets worse from there on. I'd love to get some corroboration that this isnt just my perception, but is perhaps based on something more concrete (such as no play testing beyond 11th level was performed)........

 

I posted a link a little further back, although as stated I haven't been able to find the original one everyone else is quoting. That means little -- as I've noted, the people running the Wizard boards (and not just the moderators in the forums, the entire board) are notorious for taking anything they don't like down.

 

I'll grant that, without the official statement, the fact that everyone repeats it as coming from an official source means nothing (insert "friend of a friend = urban legend" crack here). However, it is consistent with other information that has come out (like the Psionics Handbook undergoing a major revision less than a month before printing) and my own experience (helping run a campaign that went from 3rd to 18th, another that went 1st thru 12th, and gearing up for another).

 

And remember, it's not that NO playtesting was done, it's that VERY LITTLE playtesting was done (according to one report I couldn't find when supplying the original link, something like 3 groups going through 1 module).

[tesuji]

lump me in with the crowd in favor of...

 

LOTSA RKA

+2 NND does body (defense is a con roll or a die roll of roughly 50%)

-1/2 all or nothing

 

You might also want to provide a small lim for "only affects such and such" since this wont affect walls and the like.

 

Now, that said, looking for a death spell effect that is available within a reasonable poiint total and which has good dramatic potential (i find save or die to be anti-dramatic)...

 

1d6 RKA

+2 NND does body (con roll)

+1 persistent

+1 continuous

+1/2 uncontrolled

 

thats about 82 ap.

 

you again might want to add only vs certain targets and no stun, which are valid here.

 

Another WONDERFUl limit for this spell would be either extra time or gradual effect, so that the subsequent damage levels occur less frequently than every 3 seconds.

 

This spell when thrown on someone would start killing them. It would keep killing them round by round, slowly.

 

Each round they make the con roll, they avoid damage. Each round they fail the con roll, they lose body. Eventually they will die unless they do something to stop the spell from killking them.

 

This creates drama... its every bit as intense an effect as a big red digital timer counting down on a bomb.

 

Now, every continuous effect needs an obvious counter. So in this case there does have to be some reasonable means to prevent it. If this were a "dark magics" spell then getting to a holy place or being blessed or maybe even a cleansing ritual or special herb could be the trick. Regardless, this should be chosen and broad or vague enough to make it not impossible, just tricky, in most cases. (I would NOT make "killing the mage who cursed me" a viable cut off, as that merely turns this into another reasons to bash something quickly. )

 

I would find this type of a "certain impending doom" effect much more useful in most any game i have ever run than a "sudden doom" spell.

 

Note that this version, while slower, does lick the "but if he is big enough" issue with body. Eventually, anything will die. The only obvious downside is that if it has enough regen or healing to heal the body as fast as it comes in, it wont work.

 

Just my thoughts.