Save or Die?

[Yamo]

Here's the Power I want:

 

Target gets hit with Power. Target succeeds with a CON Roll, no effect. CON Roll fails, target instantly drops dead regardless of its Characteristics, Powers, defenses, etc.

 

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

 

Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?

[Guest Celt]

Once again, Hero can emulate many things but one of its basic principles is there are no absolutes when it comes to damage.

 

Suggestions for the power:

 

A) Large Transform, live person into dead person, all-or-nothing method of reversing the Transform (successful CON roll, made immediately on the succesful attack, success negates the transform)

 

Killing Attack with lots of levels of Penetrating, Energy-based so the CON-based Energy Defense applies.

 

Such a power as 'A' is good for fantasy type games where Power Defense should be extremely rare but players could be given a magic item which gives them such a defense.

[Doug Limmer]

I'm not quite sure why you want a 'save or die' power; is it just because other games let you do it? Some other games have a 'no save, just die' power, too; would you want the Hero System to be able to do that? In 100 AP?

 

Having said that, you could always make up a "No Defense" advantage (like No Normal Defense, but moreso). I'm not sure how big of an advantage to make it; +2? +4?

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Using a Transform to do this isn't within the spirit of the rules. You would most likely be able to pull it off with a large Killing Attack, bought with No Normal Defence (vs. Saving Throw), which enable the KA to bypass all defenses if the Save is failed.

[Talon]

Re: Save or Die?

 

Originally posted by Yamo

Here's the Power I want:

 

Target gets hit with Power. Target succeeds with a CON Roll, no effect. CON Roll fails, target instantly drops dead regardless of its Characteristics, Powers, defenses, etc.

 

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

 

Nope, not without house rules or stretching requirements (a 0 END UCC BODY Drain could /eventually/ kill anyone, for example).

 

I suppose you could do it legally but with cheese: Extra Dimensional Travel (either to dimension where target is dead, or to dimension where target is killed and instantly transported back), UAA, with the defense being "make a CON roll".

 

Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?

 

Those games also generally make lots of assumptions about the types of characters that can be affected by such things. Hero can't make those assumptions -- thus, there's always a defense that someone could choose.

[SuperPheemy]

First off, you're seeking absolutes in a system that has no absolute limits. So, what we need to do for a power of this sort is define what we reasonably expect it to do. Are we talking about a power that will kill the average human (10 BODY)? Or nearly every person it strikes (20 BODY)? Or is it something that can kill nearly anyone in the campaign (say, 40 BODY)?. Are we talking about dropping the victim to 0 BODY so they expire messily in a few seconds, or are we wanting them to drop fully brain-dead on the spot at -BODY?

 

However, to indulge your curiosity, and to give me a bit more practice fiddling with the system, I'll come up with a few examples.

 

First off, you're looking at a Killing Attack of some sort. We're wanting to kill folks, and that's what the power is built for.

 

Second, we don't want any pesky defenses getting in the way, so we need the advantage of NND. I'd make the mandatory defense be a non-organic body (so you can kill all sorts of people and animals, but it won't do diddly against robots or buildings). Because NND only does STUN damage, we'll need to add the further advantage "Does BODY". Currently we're up to a +2 Advantage, so each 1d6 of KA is running 45 points. My prognosis for killing people on the spot for under 100 Active points is slim.

 

Third, we want to give the victim a Con Roll to escape the power's effects. Depending on the campaign, this can range from a coin flip (that is, if the campaign features a lot of normal folks with CON 10) to a pretty durn useless power (say a cosmic superhero game where most characters run at least a 25 CON or more). For purposes of arguement, we'll go towards the low-end of the campaign power level and say that the CON roll will average out to an 11-. Limited power Limitation of -1 value. That brings the real cost down a bit, but the Active Points will forever be really high.

 

Example #1: "Save or Die" attack on 100 AP or less.

2d6 RKA; NND (defense is not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost:90, Real Cost: 45, END Cost 9

 

This attack will cause a LOT of hurt to the average person. But it will only inflict a Mortal Wound 17% of the time. (Two shots will be much more certain however).

 

Example #2 "Save or Die" attack that Mortally wounds most folks in one shot.

3d6 RKA; NND (defense not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost 135, Real Cost 68, END Cost 14

 

This attack will give the average person Mortal Injury 50% of the time, and the other 50% will still hurt them very badly.

 

Example #3 "Save or Die" attack that Mortally wounds pretty much anyone human in one shot

 

6d6 RKA; NND (defense not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost 270, Real Cost 135, END Cost 27

 

This attack averages 21 BODY, which will kill your average 10 BODY character out-right, dead dead dead. And will drop even the biggest 20 BODY humans 50% of the time. Even a 25 BODY human is looking at a 1 in 3 chance of falling with Mortal Damage. Of course it's also a 27 DC power, and falls firmly in the realm of "gross overkill". I'd not let it in the hands of most player-characters, but it is a nice power for Gods of Death.

 

The moral of this little exercise is that HERO is not designed as a guaranteed "one shot-one kill" game. At least not in the casual sense.

[Arthur]

Yamo wrote:

>>>

Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?

>>>

 

Sure. You just need an infinite number of points. Consider: most of these other games have to band-aid the gaping holes that spring up in absolute powers, with special immunities and the like, or they are designed assuming a certain level of power in mind.

 

HERO can simulate any scale (some it does better than others). Suppose you defined a monster the size of Jupiter. It would probably be at least 1000 points, but you can do it. Do you really want some wizard to be able to turn Jovian-man into stone as easily as he does a human? An absurd example, to be sure, but it's up to ME where I draw the line, not some arbitrary limit set by the game designer.

 

It does seem that the lack of absolutes in HERO is a failing. However, on deeper analysis, it is an inevitable feature of a well-designed open-ended point-based system. No matter how large your attack, it is still finite.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Save or Die?

 

Originally posted by Yamo

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

 

Done, yes. Under 100. No.

 

The ability of an attack that can kill in one shot should be expensive.

 

Similar to SuperPheemy's construction what I would do (and it costs more).

 

5d6 Killing NND, Does body. The D is making your Con roll or the attack not taking you to negative body if applied.

[mattingly]

Example #1: "Save or Die" attack on 100 AP or less.

2d6 RKA; NND (defense is not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost:90, Real Cost: 45, END Cost 9

Instead of piling on the Advantages, why not go for just a large Killing Attack? RKA 7d6-1, Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1), Does No STUN (-3/4) Active Cost:100, Real Cost: 36, END Cost 10

 

Sure, people with high rEDs will have a good chance of living, but with an average damage of 24, a 10 BODY character would need 14 rED to remain at greater than 0 BODY.

 

If you want to throw on a -1 All-Or-Nothing Lim, so that the attack either takes the character to negative BODY or has no effect, that'd bring the Real Cost down to 27 points.

[SuperPheemy]

from HERO's very own Mattingly

Instead of piling on the Advantages, why not go for just a large Killing Attack? RKA 7d6-1, Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1), Does No STUN (-3/4) Active Cost:100, Real Cost: 36, END Cost 10

 

I was looking at the designed intention to kill people, rather than destroy things. Though we could achieve a similar result by adding a -1/2 Lim onto the 7d6-1 RKA called (not vs inorganics). Just the way my brain processes Hero.

 

Though the Does No STUN Lim intrigues me. What happens when a character falls to 0 BODY and still has positive STUN? Do they drop on the spot, and linger semi-conscious (actually, that would be my interpretation)? Do they keep going until their life finally gives out (remember to take 1 STUN every time another BODY ticks away... tick, tick, tick.)?

[Guest Celt]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

Though the Does No STUN Lim intrigues me. What happens when a character falls to 0 BODY and still has positive STUN? Do they drop on the spot, and linger semi-conscious (actually, that would be my interpretation)? Do they keep going until their life finally gives out (remember to take 1 STUN every time another BODY ticks away... tick, tick, tick.)?

 

I opt for the latter choice. The rules (Fred p. 275) say nothing about one being unable to act with negatiuve Body, merely that one loses a Body point per Turn. Thus one is able to take the proverbial parting shot or tie off a tourniquet on that gushing thigh wound.

 

That's also key to the power Yamo wants if you're figuring averages. People shouldn't be brought just negative Body, they have to be made dead, which means taking the target's Body not only to zero but to their negative Body maximum.

[Lord Liaden]

I've heard a lot of discussion about the "instant kill" option in some games. I'm most familiar with the ones in D&D, although I've seen smatterings of others. In each case that I can recall, the ability to kill instantly is either limited to affecting creatures of a certain "level" (i.e. more powerful creatures are not ever affected by the spell or other power), or the victim of the attack gets a "saving throw" to avoid damage. Note that that saving throw improves as the character gains experience and rises in level. Note also that the more powerful versions of "instant kill" attacks are usually only available to characters who have themselves gained enough experience to rise to the necessary level. In other words, the ability to instantly kill is scaled to the characters' power level.

 

HERO doesn't use levels, so the scaling is done a different way: through increased Defenses, STUN and BODY, and Damage Classes. Instead of Saving Throws, HERO has OCV vs DCV rolls, great or poor Damage rolls, lucky or unlucky Hit Location rolls, etc. So sure, you can kill something instantly for 100 Active Points or less - a 6 1/2 D6 Killing Attack will kill an unprotected normal with one shot almost every time, and a really good roll will kill most super beings. But heroes are supposed to be tougher, more skillful, luckier than normals. You want to kill anything instantly regardless of power level? Build a large enough attack. If you tried to convert D&D to HERO, do you think you could make "Finger of Death" or "Power Word: Kill" spells on less than 100 AP? Those are among the most powerful effects in the game, available only to the mightiest (and most experienced) of characters.

 

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, Yamo; I just think that you're looking at two systems with two different ways of scaling damage, and trying to make one way function in a system that it wasn't designed for.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Celt

That's also key to the power Yamo wants if you're figuring averages. People shouldn't be brought just negative Body, they have to be made dead, which means taking the target's Body not only to zero but to their negative Body maximum.

 

Darnit, you're right. I was about to suggest a 20d6 Suppress BODY.

 

Yamo, you should be ashamed of yourself for asking this question

 

I would have to go with the Transform. It really is the only way to do it as worded. Of course, most of the things in D&D that cause Save vs Death are prevented in Hero with a mere 10 pts or so (LS: Immunity to Poison, etc)

[Lord Liaden]

As one further suggestion, a friend of mine who also has a problem with lethality in HERO (not so much instant death, as the fact that a human in HERO can survive more damage than the average brick wall) was discussing a house rule he wants to try out: a character who takes BODY damage equal to or greater than his total starting BODY from a single attack has to make a CON roll (-1 for every 2 BODY more than his total) or die instantly. I think this rule has potential, in that attacks of 10 DC or more will usually be instantly fatal to normals (and to speed up combat, you can assume that most normals will fail their CON rolls), but survivability scales to heroes and superheroes, who generally have higher CON and BODY scores. This would be good for scenes of mass destruction and "slaughter of innocents", which have their places with some villains in some genres.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

If you tried to convert D&D to HERO, do you think you could make "Finger of Death" or "Power Word: Kill" spells on less than 100 AP? Those are among the most powerful effects in the game, available only to the mightiest (and most experienced) of characters.

 

Finger of Death, maybe not, Power Word Kill probably.

 

Power Word Kill requires sound and is short ranged. In addition to that, it is the weakest of the Power Words. Yeah sure it kills instantly but it affects the lowest amount of hp compared to the others (about 60 hp). Basically, it's a 6d6 RKA, All or Nothing.

[TheEmerged]

Mind if someone that's also a 3rd Edition Geek chimes in?

 

That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure. That's the 6th spell level for those of you unfamiliar with 3D&D. Most of the spells & monsters above this were simply "transported" with weak translation methods.

 

Disintegrate? 6th level spell.

Finger of Death? 7th level spell.

Power Word: Kill? 9th level spell.

 

Notice anything odd?

 

Truth is, 3D&D's spell system has some obvious problems when you try to balance player-created/new spells against old ones, because many of the old ones aren't balanced against anything consistent (Magic Missile and Charm Person being two noteworthy offenders).

 

BTW, try and remember that D&D "instant death" spells are balanced against a> the existance of resurrection spells and b> the fact that many DM's are loathe to use this sort of thing against players in the first place.

 

Players aren't nearly as fond of Finger of Death when the bad guys are using it against them, in my experience

[Talon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

a character who takes BODY damage equal to or greater than his total starting BODY from a single attack has to make a CON roll (-1 for every 2 BODY more than his total) or die instantly.

 

This is pretty much a harsh version of Impairing/Disabling wounds, which can provide the lethality that many feel is lacking in the Hero System.

[Guest Celt]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure.

 

Source, please?

[DoctorItron]

Here's the best I could come up with under 100 active points. I think that dispelling twice someone's starting BODY would cause death, but I don't have FREd with me to verify.

 

All-or-Nothing Kill: Dispel 33d6: BODY (99 Active Points); Limited Power (Victim can make CON roll to negate attack; -1)

 

Total Character Cost: 49

 

If you use the "standard effect" rule, 33d6 dispels 99 character points = 49 BODY points = instant death to anyone with 24 BODY or less.

 

I would *never* allow this in my games.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

As one further suggestion, a friend of mine who also has a problem with lethality in HERO (not so much instant death, as the fact that a human in HERO can survive more damage than the average brick wall) was discussing a house rule he wants to

 

I have to ask: why? What's it get you? Is "instant death" really that important an effect to get?

 

If you're looking at being more realisitc, "instant death" is VERY difficult to accomplish. About the only wa to do it is massive trauma to the brainstem. Seen reference to cases where someone died within ten minutes from injuries and the doctor listed it as "immediate death".

 

I think the real problem is the frequency of getting 1x on STN from a KA. In reality, a serious injury causes a system shock much more easily. I use the HL chart myself - it gives more realism.

 

If you're more interested in simulating heroic fiction: once again the higher STN multiples take care of that. If MuscleHead the Barbarian is dropping an orc with almost every swing of his sword, does it really matter whether they are dead NOW, or unconscious and bleeding to death (the Bleeding rules help too). They really only keep comin when the STN multiples are low.

[Yamo]

I think I've discovered the proper combination of Powers.

 

I figure a BODY Drain with NND, 0 END, Persistant, and Uncontrolled is just what the doctor ordered.

 

How's that sound?

 

Alas, it might take time...

 

Maybe add Autofire, too?

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

This is pretty much a harsh version of Impairing/Disabling wounds, which can provide the lethality that many feel is lacking in the Hero System.

 

Back around 2nd Edition FH, I used to run that genre with all the optional damage rules. Hit Location, Imparing, Disabling, Bleeding. It was a BLOODBATH. Almost as lethal as GURPS.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Arthur

I have to ask: why? What's it get you? Is "instant death" really that important an effect to get?

 

If you're looking at being more realisitc, "instant death" is VERY difficult to accomplish. About the only wa to do it is massive trauma to the brainstem. Seen reference to cases where someone died within ten minutes from injuries and the doctor listed it as "immediate death".

 

I think the real problem is the frequency of getting 1x on STN from a KA. In reality, a serious injury causes a system shock much more easily. I use the HL chart myself - it gives more realism.

 

If you're more interested in simulating heroic fiction: once again the higher STN multiples take care of that. If MuscleHead the Barbarian is dropping an orc with almost every swing of his sword, does it really matter whether they are dead NOW, or unconscious and bleeding to death (the Bleeding rules help too). They really only keep comin when the STN multiples are low.

 

Frankly, Arthur, I agree with you. I've never had a problem with the lethality level in HERO. True heroes are supposed to be able to survive extraordinary circumstances, so giving them (especially when they're PCs) every chance to survive works fine for me. And if someone can't get the help they need to keep from bleeding to death (common circumstance on a battlefield, for ex), they just take a little longer to end up just as dead.

 

This was my friend's suggestion, not mine. For some gamers being able to kill instantly obviously is an issue. So, if we have ideas on how to do that, we can at least toss them out and see if they're picked up - help our colleagues get where they want to go, even if we wouldn't go there ourselves.

[Old Man]

What Shadowpup said. I'd go with:

 

6d6 RKA (90)

only damages living creatures (-1/4)

all or nothing (-1)

activation roll (based on target CON) (-1/2)

 

You can't ordinarily do this with Major Transform, which explicitly can't be used to kill things (though I never understood why not). Ideally your Finger of Death ought to be AE 1 hex (to handwave the lack of a to-hit roll) and NND, but of course now you're way over 100 active points. Which is how it should be.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Celt

Source, please?

 

This is where I learned of it, although the poster mentioning this is not a WotC/TSR spokesperson I've heard it from enough people on that board -- and the moderators on that board are PSYCHOTIC about banning/locking/deleting posts. I suppose it could still qualify under "urban legend", several other playtest-related stories of this nature HAVE been verified so it fits with the available evidence.

 

I wish to emphasize that my statement about "3 groups doing one module" should be considered hearsay; couldn't find that on the official DnD board (again, the moderators there have been known to delete things). I apologize if my "story that got to me" statement didn't make that clear enough.