I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

[nexus]

I purchased Galactic Champions, read it cover to cover. I think its a well done and entertaining book. The characters are interesting and some of the ideas are intriguing. I'd love to use some of them, but in a lower powered game. I just can't seem to get into the Cosmic Point levels of play. I want to be clear I'm not saying its bad or some kind of "Wrong Fun". I've got nothing against people that enjoy it but something about that level of play just throws me for a loop.

 

When I am creating a character I tend to run out of things to buy at about 400 points. The idea of a 700 or 1000 point character really makes my head spin. They just seem so invulnerable and without limits which I think really define a character. And so many VPPs which are constructs I've never much liked as a Hero player except for very specific builds like a shape shifter that needs to be able mimic the forms he takes. Again, not an insult, but a character than can do pretty much anything seems kind of dull, particularly an entire team of them. How do you challange those types of characters on a regular basis?

 

I really don't even know what I posted this beyond I just finished Galactic Champions and was kind of hoping it would show me the light on Cosmic Play. That and its late and I had nothing better to do. Thanks for reading this mini rant.

[Acroyear]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Wow, I always have to trim BACK to get into standard superhero levels. Heck, you can easily clear 400 points just making a below average but decent martial artist detective with a nice utility belt and a cool car.

 

It's just far too easy to build out all the cool power stunts and tricks you can do (you really can't rely on the Power Skill for that stuff).

 

Cosmic Power Level =/= do anything heroes. That's "cosmic power level" not "the power cosmic" from Marvel They may be an absolute master in one field, for example. Or perhaps they are a very good jack of all trades, but master of none (VPP's only go so far). Sure, you can make those omni-power guys, but that's obviously not your taste. Try to specialize.

 

For example, I have one character at over 2k points who is "the" water elemental of the dimension (originally loosely based on Fathom of the Elementals and Aquaman). So theres lot of hydrokinesis type powers PLUS ice powers and steam powers. That's a lot of points! She has many skills to reflect her interests (including some martial arts... don't always have access to powers), a variety of equipment and weapons (like a sword and nifty trident), and some sorcery (there's the do-all part, but iirc, it's like a 50 point VPP and I usually didn't bother with it, to be honest). Aside from the smallish sorcery pool, this is hardly a do-anything character and she's anything but invulnerable. In fact, she'd be in big trouble in an actual "cosmic power level" campaign.

[nexus]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Wow' date=' I always have to trim BACK to get into standard superhero levels. Heck, you can easily clear 400 points just making a below average but decent martial artist detective with a nice utility belt and a cool car. [/quote']

 

Hm, I've never run into that, but then again it sounds like we play on a lower scale than you so that probably explains it.

 

It's just far too easy to build out all the cool power stunts and tricks you can do (you really can't rely on the Power Skill for that stuff).

 

Yeah, most of the GMs I've played under tend to be pretty fast and loose with the power stunts. And I tend to prefer starting inexperienced Heros so they don't have allot of stunts yet, so that keeps my point totals lower than average most likely.

 

For example, I have one character at over 2k points who is "the" water elemental of the dimension (originally loosely based on Fathom of the Elementals and Aquaman). So theres lot of hydrokinesis type powers PLUS ice powers and steam powers. That's a lot of points! She has many skills to reflect her interests (including some martial arts... don't always have access to powers), a variety of equipment and weapons (like a sword and nifty trident), and some sorcery (there's the do-all part, but iirc, it's like a 50 point VPP and I usually didn't bother with it, to be honest). Aside from the smallish sorcery pool, this is hardly a do-anything character and she's anything but invulnerable. In fact, she'd be in big trouble in an actual "cosmic power level" campaign.

 

You see, that floored me. A 50 point VPP being consider "small"

[Dust Raven]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I'm with you Nexus. I can't get into characters who start at more than around 400 points with Disads. I tried it once, and ended up with 200 points in stuff I didn't want or need for my concept (but were required for the campaign: Life Support, special Talents, etc) and a Gravitic Force Multipower. Other characters had Cosmic Energy Multipowers, Darkforce Expulsion Multipowers and even a Dimensional Manipulation Multipowers that pretty much all had the same Powers with slightly different modifiers and different SFX. I think I played it for... maybe a month.

 

Now, I like the idea of a Galactic Champions campaign, just not with cosmicly powerful characters. It shouldn't be too hard to tone everything down a bit. Maybe the heroes need a space ship because they don't all have FTL. Maybe one or two can't enter space without a suit, or one uses a FF and needs a suit in case he's knocked out. You can still throw things at them that only they can stop, you just have to make all the other heroes of the universe weaker or busy.

[Victim]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Well, since mundane, low power gadgets like handcuffs often run over 50 AP, a 50 point VPP is kind of small. IIRC, the Fred writeup for handcuffs is actually like 80+ active.

 

Maybe part of the reason you run out of points is because you make inexperienced PCs. A more experienced version of a character is likely going to have several things: a wider array of skills from useage and experience (knowledge skills, group skills, assorted handy tricks), better skill and combat (they made me learn how to aim after blowing a whole through that building), presence defense, additional power stunts, and then perhaps secondary powers or devices to help avoid crippling weak points.

[Chimpira]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I am not big in the cosmic play either. It makes me lazy. I like to scramble for the win. I have played characters with cosmic power level and it bored me. I am not knocking other people that like it, it is just not for me. I like it when I still have to worry about fighting flunkies.

[nexus]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Well' date=' since mundane, low power gadgets like handcuffs often run over 50 AP, a 50 point VPP is kind of small. IIRC, the Fred writeup for handcuffs is actually like 80+ active. [/quote']

 

I'll have to take another look at that write up.

 

Maybe part of the reason you run out of points is because you make inexperienced PCs. A more experienced version of a character is likely going to have several things: a wider array of skills from useage and experience (knowledge skills, group skills, assorted handy tricks), better skill and combat (they made me learn how to aim after blowing a whole through that building), presence defense, additional power stunts, and then perhaps secondary powers or devices to help avoid crippling weak points.

 

Perhaps, but I think I make fairly skilled PC, even for beginners. I guess I have lower standards since most of the games I've been try to stick closer to "human" levels. I don't mind have major weakneses. I try to put some in times just to give the character something to over come and something to work toward with their experience.

[megaplayboy]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

uh, really it's all make-believe and roleplay--you're playing Zeus instead of Theseus, that's all

Actually the writeups in the book look very different from each other, and if anything tend to stray a way from straight "power gaming".

But there's not as much difference as people think between 10 or 20 or 30+ dice--sure, you have a bigger impact on the environment, and the distance between your PC and "normal human" is bigger, but the stage you're acting on tends to be bigger, your enemies are equally capable, and you still have to deal with your DNPCs, your psych lims, etc.

 

What frustrates me is players who are into campaigns that are just starting out, and lose interest a year or three later because "things have gotten too powerful". It's like an addiction to playing "newbies", and an aversion to playing characters that might be a)knowledgeable about how to use their powers, and b)mature and responsible in handling their social interactions and dealing with gritty situations.

[Enforcer84]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Feh..*handwaves*

You like what you like...there's nothing "better" or "worse" about any style of campaign except for how you feel about it. If the cosmic thing isn't your "thing" then play what you're comfroetable with.

 

Just remember that variety is the spice of life and actually playing a cosmic game might be a fun distraction, if only for a one shot.

[nexus]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Yeah, its all about what you like. For me, nothing really gets me going like being down on rain soaked streets, sweating thugs and helping the little guy with nothing seperating my character from death but a few weapons, skill and some kevlar body armor.

[Dust Raven]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

What frustrates me is players who are into campaigns that are just starting out' date=' and lose interest a year or three later because "things have gotten too powerful". It's like an addiction to playing "newbies", and an aversion to playing characters that might be a)knowledgeable about how to use their powers, and b)mature and responsible in handling their social interactions and dealing with gritty situations.[/quote']

This would be the only kind of "cosmic" scale I would enjoy fully. If I actually played the character from newbie to that level all the way through. If I just build a character from scratch at that level, he's still new to me, and therefore just an overpowered newbie.

 

Besides, that's the best way to get lines like "Damn I miss fighting DEMON" when trying to take down an entire fleet of warships with just 5 superbeings.

[Acroyear]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Hm' date=' I've never run into that, but then again it sounds like we play on a lower scale than you so that probably explains it. [/quote']

 

I started putting one together the other evening...

 

24 Dex, 5 SPD, the basic martial arts maneuvers (punch, block, dodge, throw, grab, kick - 10d6 on the kick/off strike), a couple levels, a little bit of armor, the needed skills to actually investigate a crime as a vigilante (detective stuff, the knowledge of law and police procedures, etc, plus the sneaking and B&E, some acrobatics and climbing, shadowing, etc) plus the utility belt (generic terms: swingline, boomerang, flash bombs, smoke bombs, entangler gizmo, recording gear, observation gear like binoculars and such), a couple enhanced senses (vision and radio). It adds up fast. And when you look at a decent "hero-mobile" you're talking 40-70 points. I think even the example in UV is over 70.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can build an absolute monster at 350 if I wanted to. Many of us could, but you know we'd be using a lot of our experience at minmaxing and such.

 

Yeah, most of the GMs I've played under tend to be pretty fast and loose with the power stunts. And I tend to prefer starting inexperienced Heros so they don't have allot of stunts yet, so that keeps my point totals lower than average most likely.

 

You have a preference for new character=rookie. Nothing wrong there. I've done it a number of times, myself. Powers tend to be pretty vanilla. I imagine you might take it real light on reputations and hunteds as disads, too? I did.

 

Sometimes I like "experienced" characters with some history. Or savants. They come in with their origin story done, they've maybe established a couple hunteds, their personal style and psychs regarding being a hero, and so forth. I like to have the skills needed to fit the concept. If I make a guy who designed and built a suit of powered armor, he's probably looking at about 50 points in skills (sciences like metallurgy, aeronatics, weapon design, optics, etc, etc, plus electronics, computer skills and so on). Why? Because if he can design and build a super laser blaster into the palm of an armored, exoskeletal, strength enhancing gauntlet... I'm pretty sure he can fiddle with a Viper laser pistol or build some sort of other laser weapon.

 

I've been playing this game forever, it seems. Just having the usual "Flight, FF, EB, ok done..." can often be boring for me.

 

Look at, say, "I have wings." Lots of people will just buy Flight. Me? I'd have flight, gliding, wing buffets (not just the attack, but the stretching too, because of the wingspan), maybe I can use them to shield myself (even if painful) and/or use them to shield others (like a force wall with feedback), maybe even a limited form of extra limbs for pushing and striking.

 

The Power Skill is new (I'm old school). It's not supposed to be a substitute for a regularly used power, iirc, and perhaps I just have old habits that refuse to die.

 

You see, that floored me. A 50 point VPP being consider "small"

 

That's below average for the active points of an attack in a standard superhero campaign. Normally, powers in one framework can not add to another so for lots of people, you can't even get significant oomf added for defenses (like doubling up a force field... no can do).

 

I had more points in background skills than that VPP costs. At that point total, the VPP was really just flavoring. Again, it was a very enjoyable character (my longest played) and she was anything but invulnerable and omnipotent.

 

My 250 point speedster has a 40pt VPP. I have a huuuge list of all the various powers and such I was able to come up with just based on "superspeed" which included, but was not limited to rapid movement, rapid manipulation of the environment, limited wind control & vaccuum creation, sonic booms, vibrations, rapidly striking objects/people, moving so fast he's blurry or leaves after images... on and on.

 

Sure, he could have just had a bunch of running and a hand attack "super fast punch" but when I'm trying to make a guy cool like the Flash, I want all those cool extras. I want to run up walls, across water, or run in circles and make a little tornado, or bowl everyone over in my "draft" as I zip by.

 

... Sorry for rambling.

 

Anyway, I've never really played a "cosmic power level" campaign much, myself. Our stuff was like "high power" perhaps akin to the heroes expected to duke it out with the current Doctor Destroyer (didn't start that way, either, we grew into that power level). I was just surprised by the thought that you could run out of stuff to buy at 400 points.

 

It certainly shows how differently we all can approach things

[nexus]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

 

That's below average for the active points of an attack in a standard superhero campaign. Normally, powers in one framework can not add to another so for lots of people, you can't even get significant oomf added for defenses (like doubling up a force field... no can do).

 

That shows the difference. In the games I'm used to 50 active is that MAX attack anyone has. In my Bay City Campaign it was for the longest time, baring the brick but he had a Dexterity of 12.

[Acroyear]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

That shows the difference. In the games I'm used to 50 active is that MAX attack anyone has. In my Bay City Campaign it was for the longest time' date=' baring the brick but he had a Dexterity of 12.[/quote']

 

That's on the lower side, yeah. By 5th's standards, that's lower than "low powered superhero" for the absolute max and not much more powerful than common firearms (eg: a shotgun is 40 active points).

 

Handcuffs (page 109) are 67 active points. A Stun Gas Grenade (page 100) is 90 active points (and not very impressive, at that, against anything superheroic).

 

Of course, these are by 5th's standards. I believe in 4th ed, "standard" was 60 active points (10-12d6 type stuff) and in earlier editions 10d6 (50 AP) was much more common.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

While I myself enjoy very high-powered supers games I'd be glad Galactic Champions exists even if I didn't. That magnitude of action is an established comic subgenre which until now hasn't been well supported by published Champions products. This book provides guidelines, examples and a setting appropriate to that kind of game, opening Champions to gamers who do enjoy playing at that power level. The more "modular" Champions becomes, the more gamers are likely to be attracted to it.

[Tclynch]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Back in the mid 80s (gads!), the game I ran then was made up of 450pt. characters. Even at that level, I thought of them as just barely Justice League material. Mechanon and Destroyer SHOULD be able to take them on single handed and the SHOULD be over 1000 pts. I LOVE that the game has finally caught up with us :-).

I think it all goes back to the 250 starting point total issue/ non issue.

[Theron]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

To each his or her own. The last campaign I played in regularly was, I suppose, "cosmic level", in that we threw point limits out the window. While it certainly was a great deal of fun for most of its run, I'm looking forward to the next one I run being more conventional in approach. By the end of the campaign, I think we'd found some downsides that weren't reflected in my "Pointless Champions" article, but due to a fair amount of out-of-game acrimony, I don't know whether they were problems inherent to the style, the GM, or just a byproduct of personality conflicts and burnout.

[Theron]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I think it all goes back to the 250 starting point total issue/ non issue.

 

I remember my shock when the BBB came out advocating 250 pts as the basic starting level for supers. Up until that point, my games had always started at 225 and done quite nicely. It's all a matter of scale and perspective, IMHO.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

You see' date=' that floored me. A 50 point VPP being consider "small" [/quote']

For just 50 points you might as well not even bother with a VPP. Gotta make that Control Cost pay for itself -- the bigger the VPP the better!

[Gunrunner]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I really don't get how someone can make Galactic Champions boring. You can still make interesting characters with the right disadvantages - psychological or otherwise. And if you're beating up NPC's without having to worry, then have the GM give you more challenging foes. How can you mess that up? Look at Dragonball Z - I would say that the characters there are Galactic level, and there are some really interesting characters I wouldn't mind role-playing. Vegeta would be extremely fun trying to roleplay his arrogance, determination and pride. Even the Greek Gods had human faults.

 

If you're fighting someone you know you can whip, play it up a bit! Make pretend you're weaker than you really are and when your enemy gets overconfident, laugh in his face and say something like "HA HA HA! Now face my true form!"

 

But seriously, if you find yourself having a too easy time with your cosmic-level character, then you're GM is not challenging you enough and you should really bring that up to him/her. In DBZ, there's always someone more powerful to fight.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

Its not the points, its the relative points

 

Are the PC's below, at, or above par for the setting. How powerful are their foes?

 

Its all a matter of relative scale. A 10,000 point game can be more challenging than a 75 point game, and vice versa. It all depends on the GM, the players, and the relative point levels between antagonist and protagonist.

[Chimpira]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I tend to find it boring because I am one of those players that try to use everything to his advantage. If I have a lot to work with then it becomes just to easy for me and I wind up trying to play dumb most of the time. I would generally have GM's up the ante if I am playing in a game even if the game is low level. I have had more than one GM say, 'I just wanted to see how YOU would beat it." Not if but how. I, once, took over a country with a monk and a guild of scribes that I founded. The scribes had no power beyond being literate. Which in the right circumstances can truly be powerful. Some people find having little power boring, others find having a lot of power boring. I just find it more challenging having a little power and finding the right leverage to carry the win.

[Lightray]

I don't find much of a difference between 350 pt. heroes taking on 600 pt. villains, and 700 pt. cosmic heroes taking on 1500 pt. villains. Except for the number of options everyone has to choose between.

 

There is still the threat that the heroes won't win because their opponents outmatch them. It's not as though you'd be running your 700 pt. cosmic heroes up against Ogre and Bluejay.

 

And Lord Liaden makes a good point about Galactic Champions attracting more gamers. There is certainly a market for high-powered play -- look how popular Exalted is now.

[Zed-F]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I agree with the sentiment of not getting into the Galactic level of play. My personal preference is for lower-ended games. It's not so much where I am relative to whatever opposition the GM has for me, as where both of us are relative to everyday people. If Joe Cop happens across a battle, I want his presence to make a difference to the fight, especially if he calls in some backup. If the team gets a hot tip and forwards it to the FBI, I want to feel that they ought to be able to do something about it. High-end games are very often "it's us or no-one" and I don't care for that tone of game, myself. I like to think there are other actors on the stage that can potentially be just as important.

 

That's not to say that a Galactic-level setting might not be fun to play in, but not as 700-point heroes... unless your average space marine ran to 350 points or so, and the top heroes in the universe were at least a couple grand.

 

On the other hand, I tend towards building more efficient characters, so handing myself more points to work with might just result in a bigger capability gap between a well-designed character with suitable limitations and a "limitation-less" character.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: I just can't get into Cosmic Level play

 

I really don't get how someone can make Galactic Champions boring. You can still make interesting characters with the right disadvantages - psychological or otherwise. And if you're beating up NPC's without having to worry, then have the GM give you more challenging foes. How can you mess that up? Look at Dragonball Z - I would say that the characters there are Galactic level, and there are some really interesting characters I wouldn't mind role-playing. Vegeta would be extremely fun trying to roleplay his arrogance, determination and pride. Even the Greek Gods had human faults.

 

If you're fighting someone you know you can whip, play it up a bit! Make pretend you're weaker than you really are and when your enemy gets overconfident, laugh in his face and say something like "HA HA HA! Now face my true form!"

 

But seriously, if you find yourself having a too easy time with your cosmic-level character, then you're GM is not challenging you enough and you should really bring that up to him/her. In DBZ, there's always someone more powerful to fight.

 

The later episodes of Dragonball Z are certainly cosmic in terms of power; but while a lot of fun they're not the best advertisement for an RPG campaign IMHO. The emphasis of the series is so much on fighting and power that real character development and interaction tends to be downplayed, and often eclipsed by the combats themselves. OTOH I agree that several characters have a lot of potential to be developed in interesting ways, notably Vegeta and Piccolo.

 

Gunrunner, you obviously have a "feel" for the DBZ style. Given your interest you might find this to be worth a look: http://surbrook.devermore.net/dbzhero/dbzhero.html