Submission Holds

[Knightraven]

How do you represent submission holds in HERO? I mean, if you put someone in a grab, they just go unconscious. How would you represent making someone tap out from the pain/exhaustion?

[Steve Long]

Since this isn't really a rules question, I've moved it to "HERO System Discussion."

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but to the extent I do, it sounds like a Choke Hold to me.

 

What do you think, Herodom Assembled?

[Crimson Arrow]

I haven't got the book with me, but this sounds like the Joint Lock from The Ultimate Martial Artist. This applies NND damage, but maintains a hold on the opponent. It's rather like the Choke Hold, but the NND special effect means that it has different defences (rigid armour on the joint is one, I think).

 

Are you building a wrestler or perhaps a shootfighter or submission fighter?

 

Has anyone written up a pro-wrestling MA that uses more wrestling moves than the one in UMA? The version in the books is very "old school", to a degree, but misses out on submission holds and suplexes IIRC. I have toyed with the idea myself, for a particular character, but wondered if someone had come up with something already.

[Derek Hiemforth]

You could build a Grab that has the other NND element (the one from Nerve Strike, not the one from Choke Hold). They would continue to take the NND damage as long as they were Grabbed, and presumably they would tap out before going unconscious from the pain.

[Knightraven]

What I mean, guys, is how do you make someone tap-out via the HERO rules? I figured most submission would be Joint Locks, but its a mechanic for deciding when someone taps or submits.

I have a player who is a practicioner of Val Tudo, which is shootfighting and takes submission holds and locks from various martial arts.

It came up, in game, about two years ago the first time. I was running a game and there was an underground Metahuman Combat Tournament. Kinda like Ultimate Fighting Championship.

Well, one of the players got put into a joint lock.

I improvised and said that you couldn't be knocked out with a joint lock, that when you reached 0 Stun that you had to make an Ego roll to keep from tapping out, at additional -1 to the roll for each 5 stun below zero inflicted after that.

But is there a better way?

I mean, Steve, you wrote Watchers of the Dragon, surely Hercules would have tried to make somebody tap?

[Yamo]

Without any optional martial arts rules, you might try:

 

Submission Hold: HKA 1/2d6, NND (defense is having no limbs, pliable limbs, or rigid joint protection; +1), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points), Limited Power: Only On Grabbed Opponents (-1/2), Total Cost: 20 Points

[Knightraven]

But Yamo, how does that make them tap out? That would be great for putting them out. But not winning a match via submissions.

[Yamo]

But Yamo, how does that make them tap out? That would be great for putting them out. But not winning a match via submissions.

 

Would you rather tap out, or go unconscious from the agony?

[Fur Face]

Tapping out is role playing

 

QUOTE]But Yamo, how does that make them tap out? That would be great for putting them out. But not winning a match via submissions.

 

Good Morning Knightraven,

 

I believe the fundamental issue is that tapping out is a role playing action, not a submission one. In a nutshell, you are forcing a player to surrender. How many players do you know that would rather say "I won't give him the satisfaction! I pass out!". If you are trying to force a player to do that, my experience is that they will do the exact opposite, just because.

 

Having just written that, the other day I caught the last hour of the movie "Bloodsport", where in the final match the villian was incapacitated, and the hero (paying him back) put him in a hold where if he didn't say the magic word of surrender (which the movie never defines what the word means), he was going to break his neck. You could define that as a very convincing PRE attack, or tell the player that "under these cirumstances, I'd call this a disabling move. You can surrender if you like, but since we don't have a person on the team with regenerative healing, I'd strongly consider what this guy is saying". In that way the player still has the choice.

[Knightraven]

But, alot of submission holds; armbars, crossfaces, boston crabs, would not make you go unconscious. There would reach a point where the pain would become unbearable.

You can't 'refuse to give them the satisfaction' if the pain keeps building and building with no release.

[Arthur]

Just track STN. Once you've reached 0 STN or less, you've lost the fight. Ruling it a "tap out" rather than a "fall unconscious" is just a special effect. After someone taps out, they have to recover for at least a few seconds anyway.

[Bartman]

You could always use... wait for it... transform.

 

No wait I actually just changed my mind. What this sounds like is cumulative Mind Control, single command. Link it to the hold manouver of your choice.

[Crimson Arrow]

Sorry, Knightraven, I did not read your question closely enough.

 

As it stands, I think tapping out is essentially a roleplaying thing, as Fur Face suggested. If the character cannot get out of the hold, he will tap out, unless he has some kind of psychological limitation (not necessarily a disadvantage) which means he would not give up. This could apply to choke holds as well as other types of submissions.

 

However, what I think you want is a specific rule. Off the top of my head, how about some kind of EGO roll modified by the Resistance talent and by a penalty for each 5 or 10 points of damage done? Perhaps –1 to the roll for every 5/10 points of damage that gets through, which means that the Crush manoeuvre (or even regular squeezing from Grabs) could also make someone submit, which is not unreasonable. I always imagined that Crush was supposed to simulate bearhugs and similar moves.

 

I don’t think you should wait until the victim reaches 0 STUN before applying the EGO roll; at that point they pass out.

 

I am fortunate enough to have never been in a Boston Crab, so I do not know if you would never pass out. Wouldn’t this make a lot of joint locks useless in a fight, unless you badly injured a limb (or the person’s neck or back) and prevented them from fighting either from destroying their will to fight, or making it physically impossible? Otherwise, you could never stop the hold, because how would you be certain you had won? Any martial artists out there who can deal with this?

 

Perhaps a rule saying that every Joint Lock does BODY would help, simulating damage to a limb? An armbar maintained for long enough might tear muscles and tendons, for example. Regular Grabs and Crushes might cause BODY anyway. The obvious problem is that allowing an attack to have NND Does Body might be unbalancing, without altering the cost of Joint Lock. This might also be an incentive to someone tapping out! Perhaps it is –1 to the EGO roll for every point of BODY that gets through.

[Steve Long]

tap-out

 

Knightraven, the problem here is you keep using this term as if everyone knows what it means. I do not know what you mean by it, and I not only have a library of martial arts books several feet long, I've written three or four books on the subject.

 

I gather, from other posts, that you're using some sort of colloquial term for getting another fighter to say "uncle" or otherwise indicate that he surrenders instead of risking further pain and injury. If so, that's just a roleplaying thing. Each fighter has to determine for himself what sort of threshold of pain he's willing to endure. Arthur's suggestion of 0 STUN being "tap-out" would work pretty well, too, given the special effects aspect of the HERO System.

[Uncle Shecky]

One thing that is complicating this discussion is that the submission hold Knightraven is describing is not meant to do damage, but merely to inflict pain. HERO (and every RPG I've played) doesn't measure pain, it just measures the damage of the attack. HERO adds to the complexity with STUN, BODY, CON stun, and END, but really, pain is something else.

 

I think you can resolve this by deciding what characteristic would govern submission due to pain: CON, PRE, EGO, END, STUN, or a combination of some of those? You could rule that the target of the hold must make the relevant characteristic roll or submit. Then you buy the attack as a Drain against the relevant characteristic, with the limitation "Only for the purpose of reducing characteristic roll."

 

Personally, I think Fur Face was right to suggest a PRE attack: the hold is a grab and Drain vs. PRE, and the request to say "Uncle" is a PRE attack. You could expand on this by giving bonuses for the target's CON, EGO, etc.

 

THE NND approach works well too: the attack is a Grab and NND, but once you reach 0 STUN, you have to make a CON (or PRE or whatever) roll to avoid tapping out (instead of losing more STUN and passing out), like Arthur and Steve said.

 

PRE attack is better, I think, because it already includes the mechanic for making someone take an involuntary action.

[SuperPheemy]

It's a Pro-Wrestling term. The victim slapps the mat repeatedly as a sign of "I Give Up!" due to the pain of the hold (or the threat of further pain).

 

A 0 STUN special effect works fine. You could also base the effect on a PRE attack, and force the victim to forfeit the match.

 

In fact if we're trying to make "WWE HERO" then I'd emphasize lots of Presence Attacks as a matter of course.

[sbarron]

In the Ultimate fighting world, tapping out doesn't usually happen to escape from a painful hold. Those guys can handle pain. It happens because of the threat of severe damage to their bodies. Usually in the form of broken limbs.

 

Once a fighter realizes that he is in a hold in which his opponent can break his arm, he will usually tap out. This doesn't happen because the hold itself hurts (though it might). It happens because the fighter realizes that he will most likely lose if his arm gets broken, so it's better to get out with his arm intact, to fight another day, than to tough it out and try to win this match with a broken arm (not likely).

 

Hero doesn't specifically deal with broken limbs, unless you are playing with disabling and impairing wounds, so the only threat is usually that of inflicting body damage through a joint break. Even this however, would be enough to make a normal person tap out. Taking body is a big deal to an average person. But as James Bond once put it, "Don't find too many normal persons in this business, Q."

 

All of that aside, I agree with the building consensus. the threat of or actual infliction of pain should not have a formula for getting opponents to tap out. Each character will have to decide if he would rather surrender than go on with the pain. If you want to force opponents to surrender, you should build a mentalist.

[Arthur]

I've always assumed that inflicting pain meant doing STN damage. The game is a simulation, and in any simulation, you have to make simplifying assumptions. Sure, there are some aspects of STN damage that are not exaclty equal to pain damage, but it's the closest thing we have.

 

Now, I might make a player roll against EGO to tap out if the special effect of the attack called for it (a lot of NND attacks qualify). This is one of the few cases where I'd let a Disad give a bonus (if a character had "Never surrenders" as a Psych, frex).

[Knightraven]

Thanks for all the replies, guys. You've given me alot to chew over.

That's what makes these boards great: the wide array of opinions and knowledge to draw from.

I think I agree with the 0 End requires Ego roll to keep from tapping out due to pain, bonuses for appropriate psych limitations.

I understand about the joint break things that were mentioned, where its a choice of submission or a broken limb.

That one does involve a conscious decision on whether to submit or not, I'm guessing.

As far as a presence attack: Royce Gracie is a master of Brazilian Jiujitsu, in real life, btw, and is a very small man. He wouldn't have a high PRE, but I've seen him make huge guys, even Dan, The Beast, Severn, tap out on UFC matches.

Maybe an ego roll if you take more stun than con from a single turn in the hold?

[Uncle Shecky]

Originally posted by Knightraven

As far as a presence attack: Royce Gracie is a master of Brazilian Jiujitsu, in real life, btw, and is a very small man. He wouldn't have a high PRE, but I've seen him make huge guys, even Dan, The Beast, Severn, tap out on UFC matches.

That's a good point, but PRE also reflects your ability to withstand PRE attacks, so Gracie's PRE couldn't be too low. And if you make the attack a PRE drain, his PRE doesn't matter that much once the guy he's holping is at negative PRE. Of course, all wrestlers could buy extra PRE only to perform or defend against submission holds...

 

I'm not trying to get you to use the PRE attack version, just fleshing it out. I think the EGO roll solution is a good one.

[Bullseye]

Let's not forget that if you have someone in a hold they cannot break out of and are able to consistently damage the opponent (even just doing STR squeeze damage) you have a huge collection of bonuses to your PRE attack. You could easily be getting enough bonus dice to overcome not having a terribly high presence yourself.

 

Also, remember that presence isn't a physical thing (though appearances can be part of it) and, to use the example mentioned earlier, Royce Gracie would have a reasonably high presence, since when you look at him he's showing no fear and he's unflinchingly taking on all comers.

[TheEmerged]

This is also a good way to give EGO a use in a genre where it isn't always worth 2 pts per pip.

 

I ran a "Pro-Wrestling" campaign once, and here's what I did. As a campaign rule, anytime BODY got through defenses as the result of a grab or "post-grab" manuever it invoked an Ego roll, penalized by the amount of BODY that got through. Fail by 4 and you submit/give up.

 

In the case of NND grabs, the "body" result triggered this roll even without actually doing damage. Example: Seeker is in combat with Captain Pain -- and is subjected to a 3d6 NND grab that results in 4, 5, and 6 damage. Although Seeker doesn't actually take the 4 BODY damage, he has to make an EGO roll penalized by that result.

 

This rule assumes, of course, that HKA attacks are illegal...

[pinecone]

pinecone

 

howzabout a small Pres drain...eventually you will comply with the "Tap out" pres attack...Drain:Pres 2D6 0 End ,Continues,Req "Grab" Instantly heals with "Escape" buy it penitrating so it can bleed past power def and bob's your uncle....

[TheEmerged]

Re: pinecone

 

Originally posted by pinecone

howzabout a small Pres drain...eventually you will comply with the "Tap out" pres attack...Drain:Pres 2D6 0 End ,Continues,Req "Grab" Instantly heals with "Escape" buy it penitrating so it can bleed past power def and bob's your uncle....

 

/* shrugs

 

I'm gonna get accused of being a power gamer here but... that would probably cost more than it would be worth. Generally, debuffing just to reduce a skill isn't nearly as efficient as the new functionality of Change Environment. What's more, Suppress would be more in keeping with the mechanic you're wanting than Drain (because the damage is instantly restored).