Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Maybe if some of the guards were Supers' date=' even on a rotational basis, this would help. Consider it a Supers equivalent to the National Guard or the Reserves.[/quote']

 

I don't recall the details of 5E Stronghold at the moment, but in my campaigns I've always had Stronghold employ supers. Specifically, they have four supers in their employ, each working rotating shifts 6 months on, 6 months on, with 3-month overlap so there are always two supers on duty (while working, they reside at the prison, so they're essentially on call 24/7).

 

Of course, even that wouldn't necessarily prevent the worst sorts of break-outs... witness what happened to Captain Comet in KINGDOM COME.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Well, you could always steal a gimmick from a really bad movie...

 

Fiacho (immediately after being captured, ranting on camera) -- "I will give one hundred million dollars to whoever the hell busts me out of here!"

 

... and given that one of Eurostar's most famous crimes is the $2 billion gold heist from Russia, he'll get a lot of takers.

 

So the capture of Fiacho leads immediately to another scenario -- "Every supervillain and his mother taking a run at the prison security system, in relays. Hope you guys brought your No-Doz."

 

A very good idea. Similarly, some of the master-villain types in my campaign (and no, I'm not going to say who! ) have contracted other villains on retainer to break them out should they be captured.

[OddHat]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

A very good idea. Similarly' date=' some of the master-villain types in my campaign (and no, I'm not going to say who! ) have contracted other villains on retainer to break them out should they be captured.[/quote']

 

And if that's OK with your players, groovy. If I played that card too often, my players would stop bothering to bring killers in alive.

 

Moderation, eh?

[Chuckg]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Yeah... in the little CU in my own head, Stronghold looks like Gamma Base from the Hulk movie.

[Crackerjacker]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

With Silver Age power comes Silver Age responsibility. If you have 60's Superman's powers, much greater than golden age superman's, or have all the vehicles and nonlethal gadgets of later versions of Batman, then you have no reason to kill in most circumstances. I find it unrealistic that four color superman hasnt caused any deaths of human villains and powerful mooks, but he never purposefully does and in fact will go out of his way to save their lives from a resulting accident. That's the point, a police officer type save lives when you can approach, with just that they "can" a lot more than a cop with just a gun and no special powers can.

 

In the golden age nobody had powers so awesome or great, so like the pulp heroes before them, they found it neccesary to sometimes kill. They were facing real danger from thugs with guns. These days those thugs with guns are an afterthought, and a distraction that is meant to be handled delicately straining the tactical ability of the superhero.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

And if that's OK with your players, groovy. If I played that card too often, my players would stop bothering to bring killers in alive.

 

Moderation, eh?

 

Only the wealthier master villains could do that - and even among them, some of them wouldn't think to do it (too arrogant to believe they'll be captured, too unwilling to be dependent upon another person), others are too asocial to have friends/allies they'd trust to do that, and some are the sorts even most other villains won't trust/work with.

 

Fiacho is the sort who might do this, and particularly if a significant number of Eurostar members were free, you can almost bet there'd be an attempt to break him out of custody, in one way or another. On the other hand, someone like the Ultimates don't have the resources to have set up a contingency plan like this - or at least not one likely to be very successful. Sure, Binder might have some money socked away somewhere with an agent who has instructions to hire villains to break him out - but it's unlikely someone like Binder would be able to pay the price to hire anyone actually competent enough to succeed. More likely he'd be able to afford a rescue team consisting of super-mooks like Armadillo and Gargantua... which will more likely than not just mean Stronghold gets even more full after said villains fail.

 

So, yeah, moderation is always called for with this sort of gambit, but the general idea - done right - can be entertaining, especially if the heroes suspect or somehow get wind that such a break-out mission is planned. Remember, there doesn't have to be any guarantee that the break-out succeeds.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

In the golden age nobody had powers so awesome or great' date=' so like the pulp heroes before them, they found it neccesary to sometimes kill.[/quote']What about the Spectre?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

I'd thus consider the introduction of the Code vs Killing via the Comics Code to be the real beginning of the Golden Age.

Given that the Comics Code was created in 1954 and that the Silver Age is usually accepted as starting in 1956 that would give us a Golden Age 2 years long, which seems a trifle short.

[KA.]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

What about the Spectre?

He's on a Mission from God.

 

 

Sorry.

 

KA.

[KA.]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

According to what I've researched, the Comics Code was created by the publishers themselves as a way to avoid congressional censorship. Congress was investigating complaints about the contents of the comics, and the publishers, in an attempt to stave off the imposition of rules they had no say in creating, came up with their own set of operating codes to appease Congress. Thus the Comics Code was born.

 

Here's a website listing the requirements of the Comics Code:

 

http://www.comics.dm.net/codetext.htm

 

I believe that is technically true, but the publishers had no interest in that sort of regulation until Congress was breathing down their neck.

I "voluntarily" lower my speed to the legal limit when I see a Police car ahead, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to speed, it just means I don't want the likely consequences.

I think the publishers saw the writing on the wall pretty clearly and did to themselves pretty much what they knew congress was going to do.

 

KA.

[SKJAM!]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

I think the publishers saw the writing on the wall pretty clearly and did to themselves pretty much what they knew congress was going to do.

 

KA.

 

Well, that, and certain publishers saw the chance to cripple their competition. For example, the code outlawed certain words in titles specifically because titles containing those words were huge sellers for EC. (Similarly, the banning of vampires and werewolves was aimed straight at them.)

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

That is probably the hardest part of bringing some comic conventions into an RPG; if you teach your players that toture and killing are allowed by letting villains get away with hideously violent crimes, then you will end up with players every bit as vicious as the bad guys. If you want your players to be Heroes, you have to let them put killers into prison with a reasonable expectation that they will stay there.

 

 

The villain that gets away with it because he can is also a comic book convention. Some villains you just can't punish. Even with my unbreakable Stronghold, there are some villains in my campaign that just don't go to prison. No one can lock up the Blood Red King, for example, because he's just too damned powerful. He's more of a force to be reckoned with than a villain to be fought. Likewise, Lord Doom rules his own nation... he's a recognized national leader and has diplomatic immunity... for the most part.

 

But these sorts of villains should be few and far between, in my book.

[Chimpira]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Well' date=' that, and certain publishers saw the chance to cripple their competition. For example, the code outlawed certain words in titles specifically because titles containing those words were huge sellers for EC. (Similarly, the banning of vampires and werewolves was aimed straight at them.)[/quote']

Yeah, we can all thank the book 'Seduction of the Innocent' by Dr. Frederic Wertham for that. His book pretty much caused the stampede that ran EC and other titles out of business. I like Super heroes like the next guy but I am from the school of thought that says a comic is just another medium to tell a story and should not be seen as something just for kids. Heck, the average age of the comic reader in America is 35.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

The villain that gets away with it because he can is also a comic book convention. Some villains you just can't punish. Even with my unbreakable Stronghold, there are some villains in my campaign that just don't go to prison. No one can lock up the Blood Red King, for example, because he's just too damned powerful. He's more of a force to be reckoned with than a villain to be fought. Likewise, Lord Doom rules his own nation... he's a recognized national leader and has diplomatic immunity... for the most part.

 

But these sorts of villains should be few and far between, in my book.

 

True. Some villains who'd fit this category in canon include Dr Destroyer and Takofanes, not so much that they get away with anything they do, as they are just too damn powerful to have any real chance of being taken alive.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

1) Heroes in the "Golden Age", at least if you define that as the time that started around 1938 and went through the end of WWII, killed.

Superman killed. Batman killed. The Green Lantern killed.

They just did.

I can dig through my DC Archives and give you issue numbers and all that if necessary, but they did.

...

 

2) The universal "Code against Killing" that was eventually enforced in the comics did not appear because of the wishes of the writers or publishers, it was pushed upon them by the "Comics Code".

So the "principle" that is being defended by the "No Killing" group (which I consider myself a member of) is not something that was "part of" the comics, but something that was "done to" the comics.

DC cleaned up its act long before 1954. In fact I believe Superman and Batman cut out the killing (apart from in war) after about a year. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of either character killing anyone post 1945, which would be 9 years before the code was introduced.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

So, what part of the Comics Code actually prohibits superheroes from killing?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

DC cleaned up its act long before 1954. In fact I believe Superman and Batman cut out the killing (apart from in war) after about a year. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of either character killing anyone post 1945' date=' which would be 9 years before the code was introduced.[/quote']This seems to suggest that while the Comics Code went into effect in 1954 ,its most important aspects were in place long before by concensus rather than "force." That would seemingly contradict your earlier reply that suggested that since the Comics Code was only introduced in 1954 and the Golden Age theoretically ended in 1956, the Golden Age would have been only two years long. This sounds more like the most important aspects of the Comics Code (and hence the Golden Age) were in place long before, at least by 1945 and (with time out for World War Two) even before.

 

Formal recognition of a movement most generally follows its inception rather than precedes it.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

1. Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals.

 

probably this bit because killing even in self defense woudl require a trial etc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Seems to me the comics code wa smore about horror, violence and sex than necessarily about death. DC wasn't really injured by the Code (they didn't have to move Batman and Robin to separate residences to deal with Wertham's allegation Bats was a pedophile, for example).

 

EC comics, on the other hand, was put out of business because their horror, "true crime", etc. books could never meet the Code standards. It was the more lurid books that were realy put out of business - DC was OK with the code from the start.

 

And Marvel villains were always (appearing to) die in the early '60's, code notwithstanding. Avengers #15(?) where Zemo died was title "By my hand shall perish a villain" or some such. But, as noted at the start of the thread, the heroes mourned a loss - they didn't dance about on their graves.

 

Not to say Code silliness wasn't out there. Stan Lee's Spidey issue that ultimately broke the back of the code was requested by the government to send a message that drugs were bad/dangerous. You couldn't say "Zombie" [Zuvembie was OK]

 

Hmmm...I recall a letter in a '70's Marvel Two In One asking why there was no Code stamp on a particllar issue. The letter noted that there were no durgs, and no real violence, so it must have been sex. His conclusoion? The Thing should stop dating Alica Masters, or at least put a shirt on! Truth was, the stamp fell off on the way to the printer.

[Susano]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Anyone see the Superman story where he fights The Elite (an obvious stab at The Authority)? Especially the end where the makes his speech about how easy it is to kill, and how hard it is to try and "do the right thing" when everyone else wants blood? His statement to The Elite basically was to thank them for showing him what he could become and for reinforcing his desire to fight against it.

 

The Authority started out... different in tone than a normal superhero book. I actually liked it, if only because they wanted to make a difference in a fairly dark and dystopian paranormal world. It was a world that required extreme measures, and Jenny Spark's manta of "We can do better than this and/or Make/create a better world" was a noble cause. But then it descended into pretty unpleasant violence for violence sake.

 

Interestingly, Planetary exists in the same universe, and seems (to me) to be far more supportive of the superheroic ideal than The Authority, which seemed to revel in showing that the establishment was bad and anyone not in The Authority was a worthless/mindless dupe of The Powers That Be.

 

Of course, reading Planetary, one sees how unpleasant those Powers really are. However, in the last issue I find it interesting our heroes didn't kill Jacob Greene, but simply stranded him on an extraterrestrial vessel leaving our solar system. And Jakita Wagner isn't too happy with that.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Like most people, I set 1938 as the start of the Golden Age. When it ends is less clear but it must be before the start of the Silver Age in 1956.

 

After the initial early vigilantism I always got the impression that DC's output tended to be more wholesome* and family friendly than other companies such as Timely.

 

As Hugh Neilson mentions, the Comics Code was mostly directed at crime comics. I doubt the most ruthless costumed vigilante would have merited much attention. The most depraved superhero fare was always a lot cleaner than the crime/horror gorefests of the early 50s.

 

*The exception being Wonder Woman which was perverted filth, obviously.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

I agree re: link between golden age comics and pulps. Many, arguably most, golden age comic characters would require little or no alteration to fit in the pulp milieu. Several draw strongly from specific pulp characters, as well ( Batman and Superman between them draw from Doc Savage, the Shadow, and Hugo Danner ).

[freakboy6117]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

wow Doug you actually made wonder woman sound interesting

[Starlord]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Don't forget the argument that: At what point is the hero, as well as society, culpable for the murders that a villain commits after he breaks out of prison for the umpteenth time?

 

 

Basically, it's all about picking a point where you stop suspending belief, sticking to it, and being comfortable with it. Different things bother different people. For example, certain costumes bother me. Unless a hero/heroine has natural defenses, he/she should never be scantily clad (like female MA's in the equivalent of bikinis) and would, quite logically, armor themselves to some extent at all times.

[Korvar]

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

 

Don't forget the argument that: At what point is the hero, as well as society, culpable for the murders that a villain commits after he breaks out of prison for the umpteenth time?

 

I think part of the problem is we're looking at the number of times the Joker (for example) has escaped prison/asylum in 60+ years of history. I don't think any of our campaigns are going to last that long! I don't see a campaign going on long enough to requre that level of villain recycling.

 

Has anyone run a campaign where the Joker-equivalent does treat their prison as a temporary hostel?