Why is Superman being called stupid?

[lapsedgamer]

I have been read some posts about Superman on various threads, and I have seen some people describing him as stupid. I have never really liked the character that much, I'm more of a street-level fan. However, I read some of those books as a kid, and I remember him being depicted as a genius with a lot of scientific knowledge from Krypton. He was always outsmarting Luthor, or that annoynig little imp character. He was the de facto leader of the JLA, if a remember correctly. Now that's probably the Silver Age character I'm thinking about. Did they significantly dumb him down when they retconned the character?

 

I remember his being shown as a pawn of the government in the Dark Knight books, but I took that as Miller's swipe at his old-fahioned values and forthright nature, not a lack of intelligence. I also think Miller needed a good foil for contrast as he reworked the Batman character.

 

I would think he would have somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20-25 INT score, in Champions terms,with an EGO score in the same ballpark.

[Hermit]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

While I don't think he's stupid either, I believe Superman's "super intelligence" was abandoned post crisis. I could be wrong on that.

[Pegasus]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

While I don't think he's stupid either' date=' I believe Superman's "super intelligence" was abandoned post crisis. I could be wrong on that.[/quote']

 

He lost powers such as Super Memory and Super Analysis, as well as the tactics of using X-Ray vision at superspeed to memorize every molecule's position in the room as he entered, thus being able to reassemble everything (via Super Memory+Super Speed) when the bomb went off. He no longer has the whole of human history memorized, nor the number of pores in a square inch of Lex Luthor's skin...so yeah, I guess they dumbed him down post-Crisis.

[Vorsch]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Superman is called stupid because with his powers he should never need to be in situations that he always finds himself.

[Storm Shadow]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

I guess superman is a Golden Age character. This age starts with the Action Comics #1 with superman as main character in 1938, don't it? (I'm not sure but it's a similar date/comic)

[Blue]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

He is? Man, I should change my Title Line above then

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Superman is called stupid because with his powers he should never need to be in situations that he always finds himself.

You win the Bunny!

 

I think that most complaints about his intellect are in regards to what Vorsch is implying.

[OddHat]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Superman is called stupid because with his powers he should never need to be in situations that he always finds himself.

 

Yes. Huge numbers of Superman plot lines require him to take insanely bone-headed actions in order for the plot to work, or require him to "forget" key powers at critical moments. It's a common problem when writers try to handle excessively competent or powerful characters, and was particularly common in Supe's case.

 

If it makes you feel any better, most Comic Book characters and Action Heroes are written as idiots from time to time.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Superman is called stupid because with his powers he should never need to be in situations that he always finds himself.

 

Sure. I have had the same thought about several other characters in the past. However, some of that is poor plotting on the part of writers. Then again it is hard to write a convincing story involving a character who can do almost anything. I'm sure that's why they remade him. Howver, I never thought that the character was intended to be infallible.

 

He just seems to get dissed on a regular basis in these threads. Is Bruce Wayne so much more intelligent than Clark Kent/Kal-El, or are they just being written that way to satisfy Bat-fans.

 

If Kal were that dim, wouldn't the whole world quake in fear at the thought of such a brain-dead life form having that much power. Wouldn't his teammates look at him and sort of shake their heads. (Aside from Batman. He appears to think almost everyone else is stupid in his lataest incarnation.)

 

Would you play him as a dolt as an NPC?

[Chuckg]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

On another message board I frequent -- whose primary purpose is to debate "vs." fights between fictional characters -- we call that phenomenon PIS.

 

PIS -- Plot-Induced Stupidity -- is that force which forces otherwise reasonably intelligent characters to forget about certain powers, skills, abilities, and/or basic common-sense tactical concepts, in order to take a plot which shouldn't last them 4 pages and stretch it out to 22 or more.

 

The classic example is the Flash forgetting, 19 times out of 20, that whatever villain he's facing that day could simply be hit with a superspeed disarm, a superspeed kick to the nuts, and a superspeed wrapping of EB Green aircraft tape around the wrists and ankles... all before the villain would even have a chance to see him move, let alone react. Of course, if he did that, the writer of FLASH would have to fill 19 pages every issue with God only knows what, 'cause Lord knows he couldn't fill it with fight scenes.

 

Hence, PIS.

 

 

 

PIS is called such so as to distinguish it from CIS, or Character-Induced Stupidity, which is when the character in question is genuinely supposed to be that much of an effing moron. The classic example of CIS is the Rhino. Or, to use a Champions example, Bulldozer.

[Rene]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

If it makes you feel any better' date=' most Comic Book characters and Action Heroes are written as idiots from time to time. [/quote']

 

Whatever makes the story work is fine by me, as long as it isn't blatant, like Superman being hurt by a bullet.

 

Okay, now turning off my suspension of disbelief circuit...

 

Superman's most inconsistent power nowadays must be his superspeed. You think Superman would have no trouble fighting big, slow guys like Lobo, Mongul and Doomsday. They're more or less matched in strength and toughness, but Superman has lots and lots of speed and mobility over these guys.

 

But he can't use it, because it would be undramatic in the extreme. Someone said Superman should've used his speed and flight to grab Doomsday and fly him to the sun. But there isn't much of a story there...

 

And oh yes, they really "dumbed" him down after Crisis. He isn't a super-scientist who creates artificial intelligence robots any more. He is often described as having been a bright kid in school, but well within human parameters.

 

EDIT: I had not read Chuckg's message before I sent it. But what he said. Flash is another frequent character who get power downs. And people whine about the Identity Crisis fight... Meltzer didn't do anything different from most writers.

[Storm Shadow]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

It's ok Superman born to show THE human. Now it's more interesting a guy with super STR and nice rays but he don't knows it all and isn't super intelligent and sometimes makes mistakes. It makes the character more human and more interesting. Maybe in the past it was needed to show an unbeateable man, now it isn't. Is superman showing in a way showing the real life?

[Chuckg]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Rene -- Actually, he did -- he severely augmented Deathstroke beyond reason.

 

Look at the position of the hand holding the sword. Deathstroke had to be able to swing his arm from "forward" to "aimed straight back" in the span of time it took Wally, who was already running at speed, to cross the sidewalk.

 

Which would require Deathstroke's hand to be moving literally FTL.

 

Which is silly.

 

 

If he'd just had Wally get dropped by an ultrasonic gizmo like the one Vandal Savage used on Jesse Quick, it would have been 'ordinary' PIS to have Wally forget that he could've just run over and snatched it out of Deathstroke's hand before Deathstroke turned it on. But to run straight into the point of a sword like he was blind? A sword that was swung into position faster than Wally can run? That's not PIS, that's just silly.

[Storm Shadow]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

I agree. Wally must see the world in slow camera. But I think he has a common human intelligence so he can't assimilate the whole information that his sences receives so maybe sometimes his speed plays against him.

[Rene]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

If he'd just had Wally get dropped by an ultrasonic gizmo like the one Vandal Savage used on Jesse Quick' date=' it would have been 'ordinary' PIS to have Wally forget that he could've just run over and snatched it out of Deathstroke's hand before Deathstroke turned it on. But to run straight into the point of a sword like he was blind? A sword that was swung into position faster than Wally can run? That's not PIS, that's just silly.[/quote']

 

I don't think it is much more silly than Barry Allen running at Captain Cold while Cold is pointing his Cold Gun. Cold's finger must be moving at superspeed to manage a shot before Barry hits him a thousand times. Barry had speed and reflexes a *million* times faster than normal.

 

Now, instead of running into a gun, Wally went and run into a melee weapon. A melee weapon is supposed to be slower than a gun, but for a guy that can move a million times faster than a human, does it matter? We can even suppose that Deathstroke, due to being enhanced himself, can move his sword faster than Captain Cold can pull the trigger of his gun.

 

It's pretty silly, yes. But it's all silly.

[Prometheus]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Nope, that can't be it. In DC: 1,000,000 he burnt out a 853rd century computer by using it to formulate tactics at superspeed.

 

It just comes down to what people have already said. If Supes or Wally used their full potential- and not just in combat- writers would be tearing their hair out trying to fill 19 pages worth of comic book.

[Supreme]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

I guess superman is a Golden Age character. This age starts with the Action Comics #1 with superman as main character in 1938' date=' don't it? (I'm not sure but it's a similar date/comic)[/quote']

Yes, June 1938 was the release of Action Comics #1. This is probably the only universally agreed upon date for the comic book period known as the "Golden Age." Superman #1 did not appear until the next year. Then Superman was billed by Siegel as being a "Hercules in strength, a genius in intellect." These days he just sports a degree in journalism from Kansas State where he went on a football scholarship (though I think Mark Waid might have retconned that again in "Superman: Birthright," I can't remember).

 

I think that what really makes Superman look stupid is hanging around Batman.

 

Interesting side note: Lex Luthor first appeared a couple of years earlier in Detective Comics (#4 I think) as a criminal mastermind with red hair. So Luthor actually pre-dates Superman.

[Rene]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

It just comes down to what people have already said. If Supes or Wally used their full potential- and not just in combat- writers would be tearing their hair out trying to fill 19 pages worth of comic book.

 

Wally must have a obscene Movement power, and lots of Lightning Reflexes, but a not-so-good DEX. He is always losing DEX x DEX Contests with villains who Hold their Actions to see who goes first.

[Chimpira]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Wally must have a obscene Movement power' date=' and lots of Lightning Reflexes, but a not-so-good DEX. He is always losing DEX x DEX Contests with villains who Hold their Actions to see who goes first. [/quote']

It really depends on who is writing him. One issue he is dodging bullets shot in the back of his head and another he is getting impaled on swords that he can plainly see.

[OddHat]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

It really depends on who is writing him. One issue he is dodging bullets shot in the back of his head and another he is getting impaled on swords that he can plainly see.

 

Now that's a lmit for your character on all powers and skills:

 

-1 Limited Power: "Only works if the GM remembers you have it, and feels like letting it work"

[keithcurtis]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Rene -- Actually, he did -- he severely augmented Deathstroke beyond reason.

...

A sword that was swung into position faster than Wally can run? That's not PIS, that's just silly.

I don't think Deathstroke had to be powered up for this. He did a similar tactic in his first appearance (NTT#2), by tripping pre-crisis Wally while fighting the entire group(!).

 

Superspeed in general is a non-workable power for plots and fights. In the case of Superman, I figure its a power he has to consciously turn on that takes some degree of concentration. Sure he can move really, really fast, but he has to plan and prepare for the move first. In Champions terms, put a 1 phase delay and 0DCV on the extra speed (or transform or whatever your using to simulate the power.) This would eliminate 90% of the "Why didn't he use his $%#$%^ Super Speed?!?" instances.

 

And yes, the vast majority of action/adventure plots would fail if the heroes had one dram of common sense.

"Use your cell phone!"

"Don't go in there!"

"Don't split up!"

"Call the frickin' police!"

 

Keith "Wants to shout in movie theaters" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Now that's a lmit for your character on all powers and skills:

 

-1 Limited Power: "Only works if the GM remembers you have it, and feels like letting it work"

Id let that one fly. Of course, considering the state of my memory and my curmudgeony inclinations -2 might be more appropriate.

[Chuckg]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

I don't think Deathstroke had to be powered up for this. He did a similar tactic in his first appearance (NTT#2)' date=' by tripping pre-crisis Wally while fighting the entire group(!)[/quote']

 

Pre-Crisis Wally had a bad case of CIS. Not PIS, CIS.

 

OTOH, today's Wally is much more experienced, and much much much much much less of an idiot.

[Rene]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

Pre-Crisis Wally had a bad case of CIS. Not PIS, CIS.

 

OTOH, today's Wally is much more experienced, and much much much much much less of an idiot.

 

His smarts seem to come and go. In his own post-Crisis book he wasn't that smart until Waid, and in JLE, well... Okay, we should discount that. If there was someone who dumbed down characters it was Giffen. Only it was done in the name of sitcom comedy instead of drama.

[Jhereg]

Re: Why is Superman being called stupid?

 

I never read DC religiously, but I remember the same phenomena happening with poor ol’ Hal Jordan in the 80’s. Thanks to the writers, he had a years-long bout of incompetence.