DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

[Chuckg]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

Yup. As mentioned, pretty much the only points that lag are the Inner Circle -- and unlike the last time around, the Inner Circle are *not* the master villains, they're the (unknowing) false front and patsies for the master villains. The *real* masters of DEMON are Luther Black and his Inverted Trinity.

 

The rank-and-file organization notes, the Profane Regalia, the activity suggestions, the Demonhame system -- yup, this is as good as the VIPER sourcebook, and yet completely different from the snake guys. Good job.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

Sounds like a definite must-have.

 

The local store finally got ARCANE ADVERSARIES, which I picked up about a half-hour ago. They say their distributor doesn't know anything about DEMON, which is par for the course for whatever group of sad-sack morons they use as a distributor (if it isn't WotC, you can bet we get it a minimum of three weeks after the rest of the world. I'm betting game stores in Mozambique get stuff more on schedule.

 

I'm looking forward to DEMON a lot. Sounds like they finally got the treatment they deserve.

[Chuckg]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I'm going to post a spoiler from the book, like a movie trailer, to hopefully get more people to buy it.

 

Note -- this one SPOILS THE ENTIRE LUTHER BLACK PLOT. If you don't wanna know, don't read. It's DM's only here:

 

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"If DEMON successfully brings the five Kings of Edom out of their prison and into the world, Luther Black will have worked the greatest spell since the mythic age of Atlantis, and the spell he will have cast is the organization itself. DEMON is a magician's circle writ large, its circumference encompassing the whole of the world, each of the circle's parts inscribed with a human soul dedicated to evil.

 

"Luther Black stands at the circle's center in a triangle formed by the Inverted Trinity. Beyond the triangle, forming three concentric rings, are the Morbanes, Initiates, and Brothers, and Black has bound them to him via the chapels in the Demonhames and the Soul Gems the Morbanes wear. Set before the magician, outide of his protective circle, is the summoning circle: an inverted pentacle, an Inner Circle member at each of the central pentagon's sides and the five Rites of the Maleficia forming the pentacles' horns, inscribed within a circle formed by each Maleficus Rex.

 

"DEMON is a ritual involving the souls of tens of thousands, a sorcery of fell power to encompass the globe, a black magic rite performed on a grand scale -- a scale appropriate to its goal of world conquest and a black magician's apotheosis.

 

"This, however, is a secret known only to Luther Black. The other members of DEMON see the organization differently..."

 

-- DEMON: Servants of Darkness, by Allen Thomas, p. 24

 

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Spoiler ends.

[OddHat]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I'm going to post a spoiler from the book, like a movie trailer, to hopefully get more people to buy it.

 

Note -- this one SPOILS THE ENTIRE LUTHER BLACK PLOT. If you don't wanna know, don't read. It's DM's only here:

Spoiler ends.

 

Agreed. That's one of the best changes to Demon made in this version.

[The Watcher]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

Jeff, I have not yet read the spoiler. Are you going to use it in the campaign or is it safe to look at?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

Jeff' date=' I have not yet read the spoiler. Are you going to use it in the campaign or is it safe to look at?[/quote']

 

I don't know one way or another. I might use the general concept without using the specifics, or I might not. In any case, I trust y'all to go on character (not player) knowledge, and I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of enjoying what sounds like an exceptional book... so go ahead and read it.

[Acroyear]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

One thing I would like is a bad guy organization that is exactly what it appears to be.

 

Thus far:

Viper is basically a front.

Demon is basically a front.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I'm not sure I would call VIPER a front. All Nest leaders know of the council. Many Nests worship the great snake. The majority of agents could really care less about the nature of the organization. They cause chaos and get paid.

[OddHat]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

One thing I would like is a bad guy organization that is exactly what it appears to be.

 

Thus far:

Viper is basically a front.

Demon is basically a front.

 

KS needs to get a book contract:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6160&highlight=Enforcers

[Acroyear]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I'm not sure I would call VIPER a front. All Nest leaders know of the council. Many Nests worship the great snake. The majority of agents could really care less about the nature of the organization. They cause chaos and get paid.

 

If the public and/or the general membership of your organization is unaware of your true purpose, then your organization is a front.

 

I don't particularly care for Viper as either "a game by a crazy computer" or a "magical snake cult" myself. Just seems like too much of a push to include something to be discovered that's shocking or something.

[OddHat]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

If the public and/or the general membership of your organization is unaware of your true purpose, then your organization is a front.

 

I don't particularly care for Viper as either "a game by a crazy computer" or a "magical snake cult" myself. Just seems like too much of a push to include something to be discovered that's shocking or something.

 

I don't agree here. It's an attempt to make a Silver Age villain group work in Iron Age and "real world with powers" games. Taken at face value, organizations like Viper and Demon are silly; they work nothing like real criminal organizations (see how long the Yakuza last if they give up gambling, prostitution, and selling drugs to middle class businessmen in favor of Trying to Take Over The World). Making them fronts for ultimately Supernatural Evil, Evil that does not need to follow the rules of ecconomics, allows them to fit in a broader range of game settings.

 

You can always drop the conspiracy, just as a GM who wants "realisitic" super-criminals can drop the uniforms. For now, I like this compromise.

 

Personal opinion only, of course.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

If the public and/or the general membership of your organization is unaware of your true purpose, then your organization is a front.

 

I don't particularly care for Viper as either "a game by a crazy computer" or a "magical snake cult" myself. Just seems like too much of a push to include something to be discovered that's shocking or something.

I see it as a need to know basis. Just because workers don't know the location of a Hero's secret base, doesn't mean that it is a front operation. Different Nests operate differently and as a GM you can run the VIPER nest as one that knows what VIPER is really after.

[Acroyear]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I'm not so sure. Much of Viper would be a lot less interested in Viper if the sales pitch was "we're going to dominate the world for magic snake gods" in my opinion.

 

I don't so much mind that the group was founded out of some sort of snake cult, but the fact that the magic snakes are real and it's still a snake cult really makes things kooky for me.

 

Is the CU a "iron age" or "real world with powers" setting? I didn't really get that impression. Perhaps iron leanings. I don't find it any less silly than simple criminal organizations. How well would the Yakuza fair? Just as well, assuming they had the numbers and technology that Viper has.

 

Like I said, it's just too much of a push for something to be a shocking revelation. It's like if they DID do a Yakuza sourcebook, you'd be expecting the truth behind the group to be, like, Atlantean domination of the world. And the Mafia? That was originally founded by moonmen who have a dietary requirement in alcohol, which is why they were so active during prohibition. When the twist is expected, when the twist is the stereotype... it's no longer interesting.

 

I'd much rather see a section about possible twists to the organization. Really a magical hamster cult, really the outgrowth of a failed alien invasion in the 1920's, really a rogue government agency, really the result of an unhappy housewife with the justice system, whatever... This would help provide uses for a variety of GMs without all the burden (the purpose of a sourcebook, imo).

 

Of course, that's just my take on it. I'm sure many people enjoy it, but I'd really like to see a big criminal group that doesn't have some deep, dark secret that it keeps even from its own members. A Dr. D organization book might fit this... I'm not keen on Dr. D, myself, but it seems more straightforward.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I second all the compliments I've seen posted. There's one thing I'm not clear on. Both the Dragon and the Kings want to turn the Earth into a place where life is miserable and short and ends in consumption and oblivion. Why is it worse if the Kings do it?

[Chuckg]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

The Dragon would just remove humanity from the universe.

 

The Kings of Edom would remove the universe from the universe.

[Metaphysician]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

VIPER isn't really a "front" for Nama. He spurred the formation of VIPER, but the groundwork already existed, and was created by humans. While VIPER does serve some of Nama's goals, its more that the goals of VIPER's leadership are something Nama encouraged.

 

Really, the vast majority of the time, VIPER is nothing more than what it appears: an organization of humans bent on taking over the world.

 

Now, there *are* some "front" elements in it, but those have to do with the Nest structure. . .

[Jhamin]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I have to say that I am of mixed emotions about Demon.

 

Luthor Black's master plan is indeed an amazing villanous plot. The mind boggles at how long he has spent arranging it and how close he is to success. It's one of the best reads I have gotten from a Hero book yet.

 

 

On the other hand, Luthor Black's machinations fill out almost 2/3 of the book. I would really have liked to have seen *much* more about what the bottom rung Demon Brothers do all day. While the rank and file are statted out and a sample Demonhame is provided the focus of the book doesnt seem to be on them. It seems to be at the top of the organization rather than at the bottom rung, which is the level PCs are most likely to encounter. What is a typical Demon plot like? What plots does a Morbane persue on his own? Where are the plot seeds that don't involve an epic confrontation on the scale of the Demonflame Incident?

[Chimpira]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

What is a typical Demon plot like? What plots does a Morbane persue on his own? Where are the plot seeds that don't involve an epic confrontation on the scale of the Demonflame Incident?

Starting on page 144 in Campaign Advice it talks about threat level, how to increase it or decrease it and under Anatomy of a Black Plot on the following page, the book gives you quite a few Plot Seeds that are not epic in scope at all.

[Jhamin]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I noticed the campaign advice. I'm just saying there wasn't nearly enough stuff along those lines. The majority of the book dealt with a villian who doesn't officially exist and his private army which is unknown to the rank and file of Demon.

 

Not that it isn't an *extremely* cool master villian and his private army mind you. I just wanted more about the rank and file and less about the secret master.

(although I did like the reasoning behind DEMON handing out mystic knowledge to anyone who is willing to pay the price rather than hoarding it like most evil cults)

[James Gillen]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

I second all the compliments I've seen posted. There's one thing I'm not clear on. Both the Dragon and the Kings want to turn the Earth into a place where life is miserable and short and ends in consumption and oblivion. Why is it worse if the Kings do it?

 

That's why I vote third-party.

 

JG

[Hermit]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

That's why I vote third-party.

 

JG

 

Vote Istvatha, one billion dimensions can't be wrong!

[OddHat]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

How well would the Yakuza fair? Just as well' date=' assuming they had the numbers and technology that Viper has.[/quote']

 

Can't agree here Acro. Viper is 100% a silly comic book villain group; it does not make sense without hand waving it all as "magic." Nama makes that hand waving a little easier.

 

The Yakuza, should it somehow acquire Viper's ridiculous technology and resources, would sell the patents and instantly become vastly wealthy. They would not dress up in goofy, easily identifiable costumes and waste time and resources on bank jobs.

[Chuckg]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

To be fair, VIPER isn't wasting its resources just on bank jobs, they're building up their resources for the eventual conquest of the world.

 

However, since the Yakuza doesn't *want* to conquer the world, you're exactly right -- given VIPER's resources, they'd immediately license the patents and start becoming the world's leader in about a dozen different fields of technology, incorporate as "Mitsuhama Computer Technologies" or somesuch, and start rakin' in the gigabucks corporate style.

 

 

(Shadowrun reference)

[OddHat]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

To be fair, VIPER isn't wasting its resources just on bank jobs, they're building up their resources for the eventual conquest of the world.

 

However, since the Yakuza doesn't *want* to conquer the world, you're exactly right -- given VIPER's resources, they'd immediately license the patents and start becoming the world's leader in about a dozen different fields of technology, incorporate as "Mitsuhama Computer Technologies" or somesuch, and start rakin' in the gigabucks corporate style.

 

 

(Shadowrun reference)

 

Have I mentioned that World Domination is a silly, comic book motivation for a non-governmental organization?

 

Not that I have anything against that, depending on campaign style.

[Metaphysician]

Re: DEMON: Opinions (some spoilers)

 

VIPER might not be a governmental body, but if so, its not far off.

 

However, the key to remember is that all those Nests you see are *not* the means by which VIPER intends to conquer the world. Those are just to make money and distract the supers and governments. The real means of world conquest is the conventional army, supported by superhuman strike forces and advanced technology, that is going to start from a unified African VIPER nation and go out from there.