GM's "rights"

[nexus]

Where does the gm's rights to alter matters involving a PC end in your opinion? Can the gm ask for stat alteration? How about changing and deciding about aspects of the character's background that are left undefined? Or defined things? (Ah, you just thought you were a mutant, you're actually a clone with implanted memories!)? WOuld you as a player be angered by something like that or find it exciting?

[Blue]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Honestly, I think the GM can request anything he wants. If a player doesn't want to make the alterations, it's his right to sit things out.

 

However, I'm just not that kind of GM. I lay down rules, the players try to stick to them, and if there's some reason to go outside the lines in character creation I bring it up with the group to make sure they don't have a problem with the person getting "special treatment".

 

But if I overrule somethng, the only reason is because it's game breaking. That's it. If it ruins someone's fun at that table, anyone's fun, then I make sure it doesn't get in the game.

 

Your first responsibility is to everyone's enjoyment. It's not coincidence that if my players are happy then I'm happy.

 

As a player I'm almost always inside the rules already. Never had a serious complaint. But if they wanted a background alteration to fit their setting, I'm fine with that. I'm trying to fit into their world; it helps me play better.

[OddHat]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I think it comes down to individual taste and group dynamics. That said:

 

As A Player the most important things to me are my back story, and, to a lesser extent, my character concept (which for me comes up as part of the back story). I don't mind if a GM has to change my powers and skill set around in order to fit me into the game world. I don't mind having a character concept or back story rejected, at least not most of the time. I will make sure my story fits the GMs world. However, I'd much rather play a completely pre-generated character than have a GM re-write major chunks of my character's story. From my point of view as a player, that story is the character.

 

I will work with the GM, but I need final say on the back story.

 

As a GM I have to have final say on all powers and skills. A character that is too weak or too powerful in a given area can spoil the game for the other players, and the player of the over/underpowered character probably won't have much fun either after a while. I'll work with the player as much as I can, and I'll try to keep the concept intact, but in the end mechanics are my area. In terms of back story I'm much more flexible, as long as the player understands that the back story must include some reason for the character to become involved in the campaign, and to work with other players.

[Trebuchet]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Great topic, nexus.

 

I think that kind of thing has to be a corroborative effort between the GM and each individual player. Some players would enjoy that kind of stuff, others would really resent it. Even the particular character in question might make a difference.

 

Mentor sprung something like that on my character Zl'f several years ago. My writeup of Zl'f clearly stated that Zl'f was an orphan; in fact her father's death in a suspicious plane crash in Siberia was what triggered her flight from Russia in 2000. That was intended as no more than background.

 

In 2002, while investigating a secret (and illegal) facility near Novgorod in Russia at the request of the Russian government, Zl'f found her 83 year old father alive, a prisoner of the bad guys running the facility. They were apparently trying to see if the old man had anything to do with his daughter's superpowers, since they were trying to manufacture superhumans at this facility. I don't know if they had anything to do with the bombing of his transport plane (He was a Russian Army field marshal); perhaps Mentor does. However, the survival of Zl'f's father did give her an unplanned avenue to clear her name of murder charges (She was indicted by the Russian government for the assassination of her father. All charges were finally dropped and she recieved an official apology in 2003.)

 

This whole thing opened up a view into a number of factions within Russia's government and underworld, plus of course suddenly providing a DNPC (worth 0 points) to a character who I thought was an orphan. I don't mind a bit; I really enjoyed the sudden alteration to my character's backstory. I've also given Mentor's character Cyberknight a neo-Nazi cousin (Take that!)

 

Of course, that's still a long way from finding out your supposed mutant is actually an alien or the like. It's best to discuss what might be off limits before doing anything too radical.

[Hypnotoad, the]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Hrm. Difficult subject. At best I'd say that a balancing act between a player's rights and a GM's rights is needed. At best it's an art form, at worst it can be a disaster. The best thing I can recommend is communication.

 

Now, over the years I've learned to accept that I don't know everything that's going on in the world, and since my character is a part of said world, I have to assume that I don't have a total monopoly on what happens in their development (and was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn if I was going to continue to RP. Thankfully, age and experience have mellowed me)

 

So, yes I do believe that a GM has rights to decide elements regarding my character and my character's background. If they can't, then the characters tend to be a bit static in the world the GM creates. At the same time, I hope that, if they do opt to throw in a surprise or two, they opt to talk to me about it.

 

I don't expect them to spill the beans on everything, but maybe a bit of a pep talk, and a "trust me" might be nice.

[OddHat]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I think the most important thing is to keep it fun for everyone, GM, players and team alike. Finding out that you have a half-sister can be great from a drama POV. Finding out that your father was a Dark Lord of the Sith in a Star Wars campaign can be an amazing moment, done right. Finding out "You're not a Green Lantern at all, and you just halucinated your whole life! Really, you're a psycho who's good with your fists, and the rest of the team has been humoring you!" is going to make the player want to kill the GM.

[nexus]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I confess to being a bit of a hyprocite about this subject. I often get inspirations on how to "Improve" a character's background but I personally get touchy about my own PCs. But I basically think that the gm should make it clear with the players if he might do something like that and learn how they feel about it. He should also take player sensibilities into account and avoid any things that might offend them or make them not want to play their characters anymore. Finding out you and the beautiful princess are actually brother and sister might be cool, but try to let it become known -before- the honeymoon, not after.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Honestly' date=' I think the GM can request anything he wants. If a player doesn't want to make the alterations, it's his right to sit things out.[/quote']

 

(even more sensible stuff snipped)

 

Blue, you nailed it down to a "T".

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Well, they're running the game. As long as they accept they might not have players, they have the right to insist on whatever suits them.

 

Personally, as long as the game is good, I don't mind too much what changes get made. But it really irks me when changes are made _for_ me. Sure, ban/insist on halving/require me to take whatever... but let me figure out how to fit that it in.

 

That's about all I ask... oh, and the right to rebut (in private) if I disagree.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I confess to being a bit of a hyprocite about this subject. I often get inspirations on how to "Improve" a character's background but I personally get touchy about my own PCs. But I basically think that the gm should make it clear with the players if he might do something like that and learn how they feel about it. He should also take player sensibilities into account and avoid any things that might offend them or make them not want to play their characters anymore. Finding out you and the beautiful princess are actually brother and sister might be cool' date=' but try to let it become known -before- the honeymoon, not after.[/quote']

 

I think the _best_ way I've seen to handle the "nifty surprise" is to make the player your fellow conspirator. Collaborate to have it suddenly erupt in a way that makes the other players go "wow!".

 

Or don't, if they go 'no way man, no way'.

[nexus]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

One of the most interesting and funny events in my gaming history came from an unwritten twist in the characters' backgrounds. Both the PCs were spider based "mutants" with similiar powers, feature and origins. They met while investigating a insect worshipping cult in New York and eventually, and unexpectantly, became lovers. They found out at the end of the scenario they were...siblings and the leader of the cult was their mother. Oh and one of them destined to become the avatar of the cult's alien hive mind "God" Panazuzu.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Excellent topic. A lot of it depends on what has gone on before (or hasn't).

 

How detailed a PC's background is becomes an important point. A one or two line origin gives you a lot more wiggle-room for improvisation than a one or two PAGE origin (which I've seen and generated). For example, I have a pretty extensive background on my 'cop from the year 3000', Blues. It's pretty hard to fiddle with ... I did a fair amount of detail on it. However, compare a PC origin (not mine) from a previous game. "He's an alien." That was it. Time to play.

 

Whether or not it's feasible is another issue. Take the current Spider-Man situation, where he's actually getting organic webspinners instead of using his mechanical webshooters. That's feasible. It even makes MORE sense, to me, than the mechanical ones. Now ... if Spider-Man were to suddenly develop fire breath, I'd be more skeptical.

 

Some GMs I've known have used the Mystery XP idea; every now and again, he sandbags an XP and uses it to buy abilities and powers that you didn't know you had. You have to be careful to make the power both useful, cool, and appropriate. Yes, it would be cool if Ironclad could fly. And it would be useful. But it just ain't appropriate.

[bwdemon]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I'm pro-GM pretty much across the board. If a GM says "this game is about X in Y setting without any Z's for the PCs", then so be it. If the GM says "take your 350pts and show me what you can do with them", that's fine too. For me, I typically go from the basis that the PCs have to fit the game, both in background and in numbers, and no PC should outshine the others or imbalance the game.

 

GMing takes a lot more time and energy than playing, so I'm willing to pay huge deference to the GM's wishes. If the GM is willing to work so I can enjoy a game, then I'm willing to do what's needed so the GM and my fellow players can enjoy the game. It's only fair.

[phydaux]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

One of the most interesting and funny events in my gaming history came from an unwritten twist in the characters' backgrounds. Both the PCs were spider based "mutants" with similiar powers' date=' feature and origins. They met while investigating a insect worshipping cult in New York and eventually, and unexpectantly, became lovers. They found out at the end of the scenario they were...siblings and the leader of the cult was their mother. Oh and one of them destined to become the avatar of the cult's alien hive mind "God" Panazuzu.[/quote']

 

I was with you right up to the avatar part. Most of my characters could handle banging their sister. And the characters that COULDN'T handle it would be that much more fun to role play.

 

As for becoming an avatar of some alien hive mind, I wouldn't mind if, as a player, I KNEW this was something the character might have to face (even if the character don't know). But to have something like that sprung on me at the start of a session is a bit much.

 

As for pre-play character adjustment, I'm all for GMs saying things like "Your character would fit the campaign if this stat were X" or "If this power were Y, your character would blend into the team better.."

 

Also, I want my character to fit into the worlds backstory. I have two chatacters in a campaign set in the OCU, and I worked hard with the GM to get as many plot hooks as I could into their background. In a published setting it's easier, but in a home brew a player REALLY needs to take the lead from the GM.

 

That way, when I say something like "My character is going to go visit his grandmother," even though the character doesn't know it, the GM and I both know that, back in the 50s, his grandmother was a lover of Captain Midnight, the villian turned vigilante turned superhero, and she still has Captain Midnight's utility belt in her attic. But what neither me nor the character know, but the GM does, is that the Blue Shadow ALSO knows grandma was Captain Midnight's lover, and plans to kidnap her and steal the utility belt...

 

Anything to help further the campaign.

 

I find some players have a "player vs. the GM" mentality, where every call the GM makes is seen as the GM trying to screw the players.

[nexus]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I was with you right up to the avatar part. Most of my characters could handle banging their sister. And the characters that COULDN'T handle it would be that much more fun to role play.

 

As for becoming an avatar of some alien hive mind, I wouldn't mind if, as a player, I KNEW this was something the character might have to face (even if the character don't know). But to have something like that sprung on me at the start of a session is a bit much.

 

Well, becoming the avatar was something that could be avoided. It was more of plot device for later conflict and the rationale behind the character's insect powers increasing and expanding. The characters were actually so thrilled to finally have a "family" and a place to belong they were enamored of the cult and had a friendly rivalry going about who would become the Avatar. It was kind of a dark game and Panazuzu cult was actually one of the lighter shades of gray despite being extremely creepy.

[CBikle]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

For character construction, I'm pretty inflexible regarding going past the established limits or unbalanced characters (90 % of the points having a focus limit, etc).

 

For background info/history/personality/reputation, I encourage players to include as much relevant detail as possible.

 

For adding stuff to a character's backhistory, I'll do it, but a slow enough pace that if a PC doesn't seem to like the change, I can reverse it without too much effort.

[Rapier]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Where does the gm's rights to alter matters involving a PC end in your opinion? Can the gm ask for stat alteration? How about changing and deciding about aspects of the character's background that are left undefined? Or defined things? (Ah' date=' you just thought you were a mutant, you're actually a clone with implanted memories!)? WOuld you as a player be angered by something like that or find it exciting?[/quote']

I'm a tinkerer. However, I don't think I've ever really altered a stat. I require a week before game night to approve a new character (they get it back within 36 hours and it then gives us a couple rounds of back and forth to work anything out). I very frequently make suggestions:

 

- You state in the history that he has a PhD in Particle Physics (but he has no PhD Perk, nor does he have a SS).

 

- Your history states the character is a super model but she has a COM of 10? That's plain jane, this needs upping.

 

- You have Acrobatics skill...might want to add Breakfall too.

 

The thing I most often change/disallow is backstory. There is nothing worse than a character's backstory forcing me to rewrite major campaign aspects, so I don't allow it. Noone can be an alien or subhuman without prior approval, because I have to incorporate MolePeople into the campaign. If they are already there, I sometimes let it go...it all depends on how involved the history is (King of the Mole People would be a definite "no").

 

Unless the character has some weird power constuct, I just give the character sheet a quick once over, make some suggestions and move on. The character's history is more important for us, and the players know that I go over them fairly well. I need to use the characters backstory for plot hooks etc and they need to fit within the campaign. I can only think of half a dozen times in the past 14 years when I have flat out put the kabosh on an entire backstory.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Where does the gm's rights to alter matters involving a PC end in your opinion? Can the gm ask for stat alteration? How about changing and deciding about aspects of the character's background that are left undefined? Or defined things? (Ah' date=' you just thought you were a mutant, you're actually a clone with implanted memories!)? WOuld you as a player be angered by something like that or find it exciting?[/quote']

 

During character creation anything goes. The GM should take an active hand in helping the character fit his game world.

 

For me -

After start of play - anything that changes what the character is - any part of the character's "self definition" ie - where powers come from, defined background, character's relations are totally verbotten. I defined them the way I did because I wanted to play that character. Don't go changing it on me.

If I define myself as a ch'i based martial artist, and suddly I'm a mutant and always had been I'd mutiny. If I didn't define much about family then fine an evil twin showed up. But If I said in background that I was an only child then no, I don't have that evil twin.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

My last comment was in responce to the question. This is more talking about some other things raised in other posts...

 

I have a strong tendency to play "self made heroes" - Martial Artists that trained to where they are, supermages who learned thier magic through sweat and blood, supersuits who built thier equipment themselves - mystery XP and mystery powers are fairly anathema to me... If I don't control what my character does and how he gets there, I may as well go back to systems where I roll for character abilities and advancement. That is something I generally feel strongly about.

 

Playing with story and background is cool, as long as it is done with respect for what I am trying to get out of playing that character. I agree completely with the "do it together and spring it on the other players" idea.

[Vondy]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

As a GM I will say no to anything that will unbalance play, make my job in terms of plot harder than need be, or introduce concepts or assumptions that simply don't fit. At the same time I am very clear and very upfront about the nature of the game and the expectations up front and my players always make a "proposal" before I ever see a character. They come to me and say "I have idea X, which can do X, Y, Z." If I say "sure," which is by far the norm, I then wait with baited breath for the background, description, and powers/tactics summary. My players are in the habit of having their disads selected at this point as well, which isn't required. I look it over and generally say yes without tweaks, though I have asked for cosmetic tweaks from time to time. Sometimes its because there is an element that doesn't fit or I really don't want to deal with, but sometimes its because a minor tweak will give me a lot to work with in terms of plot and storyline. This is always negotiated and I always say why I want the change. Once thats done they come at me with a character sheet, which I review for balance issues and rules/house-rules integrity. Then we begin. Sound formal? It wasn't my idea. One of my players proposed it - and it works.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

But If I said in background that I was an only child then no' date=' I don't have that evil twin.[/quote']

 

Now, the evil _clone_/otherworldly doppelganger/coincidence....

[The Watcher]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

One of the most interesting and funny events in my gaming history came from an unwritten twist in the characters' backgrounds. Both the PCs were spider based "mutants" with similiar powers' date=' feature and origins. They met while investigating a insect worshipping cult in New York and eventually, and unexpectantly, became lovers. They found out at the end of the scenario they were...siblings and the leader of the cult was their mother. Oh and one of them destined to become the avatar of the cult's alien hive mind "God" Panazuzu.[/quote']Insect worshipping cult? But spiders are arachnids!

[Susano]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

I do think that if the player leaves blanks on his character sheet (like unknown Hunted) or blanks in origin (orphan, parents vanished, and so on), the GM has free reign to put in whatever he wants to make things interesting for the PC.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

A lot depends on the player. Some leave holes in their background specifically to alow the GM to fill in the blanks. IOf someone's going to be upset with "tinkering", "tinker" it back! In our game, we almost never name a Hunted - set a point level and the GM applies an appropriate one. You likely don't know who is hunting you, or why, at the start of the campaign.

 

It can be a fine line. Some players will complain because the GM plays around with their background. Others will complain because the GM fails to use their background in the storyline. In a campaign I'm playing, my character's "evil twin" showed up. He's not what I would have envisioned for the character (somewhat different from how I would have defined his relations, and even his race), but it's a legitimate take, and it doesn't violate what the character knows, only what he would have had to assume. I expect it will lead to a numbe5r of issues as the campaign winds on, which will be good role playing and probably character growth. I'm sure if I really hated it, I'd address my concerns to the GM, and we'd work something out (hey, he only SAID he was related - it doesn't mean he REALLY was, right?). Revolving door relationsnhips are pretty common in the comics too.

 

I'm inclined to look at what the character knows about his backstory. Trebuchet's example is a good one. Z'lf believes her father is dead because his plane went down in the Arctic, so the background tells us she's an orphan. But it's a genre staple that anyone whose body isn't recovered may well not be dead. By her background, Z'lf didn't see the body. Cyclops was an orphan for decades before his father showed up in a storyline (he also had "died" in a plane crash, oddly enough).

[Sketchpad]

Re: GM's "rights"

 

Mystery disads & powers are a must in some of my games ... I've always been a fan of unknown elements in gaming. As a GM, I usually allow my players to take mystery hunteds to make up points needed ... but I also explain to them that a mystery hunted is just that, a mystery. Most love finding things out ... though I've had a few that had problems with it. But, honestly, you get what you paid for