Newbies, All

[Batman]

I was wondering what the general consensus is on Hero's "Learning Curve." I've been lurking around this site for a while, and I've played role playing games before, but I've yet to actually run a Hero systems game [congratulations, I just graduated from D20]. I'm reading and rereading the the Core Book, and I think I have the basic concepts down to run a semi-slipshod adventure or two. But how intuitive is the system? How many adventures did YOU run or play before you felt comfortable with what was going on? The players I would be running with aren't familiar with the Hero system either, but I could always direct them to copies of the Sidekick...any opinions?

[Rapier]

Re: Newbies, All

 

I was wondering what the general consensus is on Hero's "Learning Curve." I've been lurking around this site for a while' date=' and I've played role playing games before, but I've yet to actually run a Hero systems game [congratulations, I just graduated from D20']. I'm reading and rereading the the Core Book, and I think I have the basic concepts down to run a semi-slipshod adventure or two. But how intuitive is the system? How many adventures did YOU run or play before you felt comfortable with what was going on? The players I would be running with aren't familiar with the Hero system either, but I could always direct them to copies of the Sidekick...any opinions?

Seriously? I'd look around and see if you can't find someone to come in and guest GM for you for a while. There is quite a bit of the nitty gritty with combat that you are most likely going to miss. Especially since none of you know the system real well, you are more likely to learn bad habits (which can be VERY, VERY hard to unlearn).

 

You are also more likely to get frustrated (especially the players) with the system and dump it entirely...which would be a great shame. Heck, there are even things that those of us with 10 or 20 years experience are realising we have been doing wrong all these years.

 

When you roll a Stun multiple on a Killing Attack you roll 1d6 -1 (range of 1 - 5). If you have a +1 Stun multiple, most of us (for a long time) were just rolling 1d6, the -1 + 1 cancelled each other out (range of 1 - 6). But it wasn't until this past year or so someone mentioned (and corroborated with Steve) that it is actually 1d6 - 1 + 1 (range of 2 - 6).

 

Hero has such granularity, while it's not impossible to learn it yourself (by hand, so to speak), it is most definately going to be an uphill climb with a full pack.

 

EDIT: Oh, it was about a year (as a player under a FANTASTIC GM) before I felt comfortable enough with the rules to run my first Chamions game.

[phydaux]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Hero's BIGGEST hurdle:

 

Accepting that a LOW roll is a GOOD roll.

 

After that, it's all fairly easy.

 

Character creation can be a challenge. That is made MUCH easier by using software, as the software keeps track of points, does all the math (correctly) and prints nice, clean character sheets.

 

Assuming your players have NO exposure to champions, you could try this:

 

Run one session with hand-out characters, like The Millennium City Champions. This will help the players get used to game mechanics and get some idea of the options available, both in game play and in characters.

 

The next session is devoted to back-up character creation. If you're going to make a gross mistake while creating a character, you don't want it to be with the character you plan to play in a campaign.

 

Third session is another one-off with the back-up characters.

 

Fourth session you create the characters you plan to use in the campaign. By this time the players will all be old hands, and they should be more than able to create EXACTLY the character they see in their head.

 

From then on, it should be all good.

[Jhamin]

Re: Newbies, All

 

The main thing is not to overcomplicate right away.

 

The core of the system is pretty simple. The problem is that you need to actually run a few combats and build a few characters before the beauty of the system becomes apparent. If you can climb that hill you are golden.

 

Hero's two biggest problems for new players are that it seems really math heavy at the beginning (it isn't one you pull the dice out) and the free form character generation means that you are responsible for your character being balanced instead of the system (lots of folks just never get this and abandon hero as "way too munchkin")

 

Combat at it's core is simple.

If your OCV + Die roll is better than 11+target DCV, you hit. Roll damage and compare to their defences. Rinse, repeat.

 

The mirayad of ways that you can deviate from the above is what makes Hero confusing. Limit how much of the rules you plan to use right away, that will limit how many complications there are.

 

-Use example characters instead of making your own for the first couple games. Character creation is both the best and most complex part of Hero. Walk before you fly.

 

-Only use standard combat maneuvers, ignore the optional ones.

 

-Run the example combat yourself using those characters before you start making up your own.

 

-When you do start making characters, pay *very* close attention to the campaign guideline advice. Don't stray too far from them until you understand what the effects will be.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Newbies, All

 

I would also suggest trying to get into a play by post or play by e-mail game if you can't find a GM available locally Hero is one of the best systems I've ever played with and can be very versitile ... I would recommend having your players get copies of Sidekick if possible. I run an 8 person group and about 4 of them use Sidekick as a player's handbook.

As far as running ... I've been running Hero on and off for about 19 years and playing for about 21. It didn't take us too long to adapt from the old Marvel Superheroes Game

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Batman, I've seen very few people who don't agree that the initial learning curve for HERO System is fairly steep, due in no small part to sheer intimidation over the vast range of choices. Once you do get the system down, though, you see that almost everything proceeds from a few basic concepts, and from that point on it's pretty intuitive.

 

As far as introducing the system to newcomers, among published resources HERO System Sidekick is certainly the gateway drug of choice. This is exactly what that book was designed to do, and from all reports it's very effective at it. If you're not yet comfortable with running HERO adventures, one of the Battlegrounds adventure compendia might be helpful to you. The adventures therein are designed to be inserted into any campaign individually or linked into a story arc, and have some reuse potential due to the diverse maps included. They do make use of characters from the official Champions Universe published in other books (their stats don't appear in Battlegrounds), but if you like to design your own you could substitute something appropriate of your own devising.

 

There are some free online resources that you might benefit from, in case you haven't come across them yet. On this section of the "Free Stuff" part of the website you can download .pdf files providing a short Introduction to the basics of HERO, and a summary of combat. Both of these make good handouts to newbies. I'd also recommend a couple of online tutorials to both you and your players, one with fairly detailed examples of character creation, the other featuring fine narrative sample combats. Both of these are very effective at illustrating the mechanics and the flow of what are the most complex elements of the system.

 

Finally, since you've posted this question in the Champions forum I'm guessing that you're looking to run a supers game. If that's the case I'd suggest looking over this thread started by someone in an almost identical position to you: new HERO GM with newbie players looking for advice on how to begin. Although that advice is generally useful it's particularly appropriate to superheroic games.

 

I hope that's of some help to you. Good Luck and let us know how it turns out.

[JmOz]

Re: Newbies, All

 

In my opinion the hardest part is Character creation.

 

To help you with this end I have started a thread that will make it a little plug and play

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=543313#post543313

 

Essentialy I will be creating 4 VERRY BASIC characters, the kind that you can cut your teeth on as such. They will all be "Low Powered" Heroes as it is easier to learn with less points...

[Batman]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Thanks for the tips, you guys. This helps me go a long way.

 

I was thinking about either using the Champions from the genre book as pre-gen characters for my players. However, I eventually want to teach them character creation as well...I was thinking that maybe when my players actually get down to creating characters [which probably wont happen for a LONG while, when we have a firm grasp on the rules], that they should create 'mutant' characters with one specific, overarching power. That way, the players only have to worry about one specific power which branches out to different areas [e.g. Cyclops] instead of being bedazzled by the sheer amount of options available. Would this work for a 350 pt. campaign? Give suggestions!

[paigeoliver]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Also, a really good way to get some experience is to play a bit of HERO before you play Champions.

 

Meaning, do a mini series with non-super powered characters, get familiar with the system and THEN add super powers.

[JmOz]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Thanks for the tips, you guys. This helps me go a long way.

 

I was thinking about either using the Champions from the genre book as pre-gen characters for my players. However, I eventually want to teach them character creation as well...I was thinking that maybe when my players actually get down to creating characters [which probably wont happen for a LONG while, when we have a firm grasp on the rules], that they should create 'mutant' characters with one specific, overarching power. That way, the players only have to worry about one specific power which branches out to different areas [e.g. Cyclops] instead of being bedazzled by the sheer amount of options available. Would this work for a 350 pt. campaign? Give suggestions!

 

It could easily work.

 

The only problem you will have is that it may be to many points to begin with, I strongly advise 150+100=250 point games to start, however be generous with xp and give points for extra disads earned in games until they are up to 200+150=350 this is a great way for a player to learn the system (they learn it as they spend xp)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Newbies, All

 

I was wondering what the general consensus is on Hero's "Learning Curve." I've been lurking around this site for a while' date=' and I've played role playing games before, but I've yet to actually run a Hero systems game [congratulations, I just graduated from D20']. I'm reading and rereading the the Core Book, and I think I have the basic concepts down to run a semi-slipshod adventure or two. But how intuitive is the system? How many adventures did YOU run or play before you felt comfortable with what was going on? The players I would be running with aren't familiar with the Hero system either, but I could always direct them to copies of the Sidekick...any opinions?

 

Batman,

I haven't read every reply, but I might be going against the grain here. If I understand correctly, you are all new to the Hero system, right?

 

If that is the case... here is my suggestion.

 

Get as far the hell away from these boards as you can.

 

Instead, do what you are doing. Read the books, try to run some games. Tell your players "Hey, I'm new at this too. I'll make any interpretations I need to during a game, and we'll see if it works. Later, outside the game, if we are really stuck, I'll look some stuff up... but this is OUR game... so as GM I'll interpret it the way WE have fun playing. Later, we can see what others do."

 

If you spend so much time worrying about the "right way" to do it... you'll never actually game. Just play... laugh at mistakes... try to look up no more than three rules a session... and just tell stories and play characters. Learn it a bit at a time, as you play... as things become relevant.

 

THEN... later, when you are having fun, but finding some sticking points where nobody has an interpretation that is "good enough"... come back here and ask around.

 

This isn't to say you aren't welcome. I didn't want to sound like that... but I am concerned about the overwhelming number of different ideas and interpretations you'll get... all claiming to be the one true Hero faith... which could only serve to make you give up the game, rather than make it your own. I know that I learned the system back in '81 when the internet was just geek myth (for all intents and purposes) and computers had to be loaded with tapes and punch cards. You don't need this site to play Hero... especially with Sidekick. You just need some imagination and willingness to make mistakes.

 

The best thing is... if you get to teach the other players... then they will learn YOUR version of Hero... which will eliminate many conflicts and issues. That is a wonderful thing, IMO. Don't let these boards take that away from you.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Newbies, All

 

When you roll a Stun multiple on a Killing Attack you roll 1d6 -1 (range of 1 - 5). If you have a +1 Stun multiple, most of us (for a long time) were just rolling 1d6, the -1 + 1 cancelled each other out (range of 1 - 6). But it wasn't until this past year or so someone mentioned (and corroborated with Steve) that it is actually 1d6 - 1 + 1 (range of 2 - 6).

 

 

WHAT?!?

 

Okay I guess I'm a case-in-point...nigh onto 20 years with Hero and I've been doing a straight-up 1d6 for a +1 STUNx...

 

As far as getting started, my advice would be to start small. I think a good starting point would be to play something like an X-Files game, where the players are all normals, and every now and then they'll run up against something with some weird powers. Maybe let the PCs have a psychic power or some uber-skill, like some of those listed in the Dark Champions forums. After a few sessions with that, once everyone has a grasp on the basic rules and has been exposed to a few of the powers, build some low-powered supers. After a little of that, you'll probably be ready to go buck-wild with anime style characters if you want.

 

I like your taste in supers, by the way. My mon Bats don't shiv.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Hmm... I think I'm halfway in accord with RDU Neil's advice, and halfway against it. Certainly you and your group should develop your own style and emphasize the elements of HERO that you prefer to use. You shouldn't be afraid to develop house rules when you disagree with how the official system handles things, or to deal with issues that it doesn't cover (darn few of those, though). I also agree that if you come to the boards for advice, the variety of answers can be daunting; that's partly a function of the many different ways that HERO System can be used to accomplish almost any in-game goal.

 

However, I have to disagree that the people on these boards will all be trying to sell you their interpretation of the One True Way of HERO. If you're looking for a clarification of what the official stance is on a rule, the response is usually swift and the concensus high. (Of course you can always ask Steve Long himself on the appropriate forum.) If what you want is ideas on how to design a certain effect, or how to deal with particular roleplaying issues, it's true that you're likely to get a diversity of opinions, and if you're not comfortable with choosing the one you like it can get confusing. In my experience, though, very few posters here will tell you that the way you want to do things is wrong; there's a strong general belief (that's shared by Hero Games's management BTW) that you should play the game the way you enjoy it, and change whatever you don't like.

 

I've seen many HERO newcomers come to these boards asking all sorts of questions, and when they leave they usually sound very satisfied with the answers they got.

 

OTOH if you tell people what you think is wrong with a particular rule in HERO, or ask what they would want to change, you should be prepared to duck and cover.

[Seraphim]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Hey there...

 

Well i picked up the hero system book when it came out and spent everynight reading it and making characters. My group which consisted of two long time roleplayers and two complete roleplay virgins.

 

Two very long years later, and a lot of genres, characters, scenarios, etc..

 

Now they are running adventures using hero.

 

And i can see they are getting things wrong but they are learning as they play just like i did two years ago. But we are all having fun and telling great stories

[The Horror]

Re: Newbies, All

 

I found that HERO is really easy during actual play. Remember: most of the time HERO can be boiled down to rolling 3d6 and scoring an 11 or less to succeed. If you don't remember a rule just fudge it and keep going. The players won't know any better anyway, so really as long as you run an entertaining game most of them probably won't care that the system is not being run exactly as written to start off with.

 

Leave off END for the first few games. Don't introduce knockback/knockdown until later on either. You probably just want to concentrate on skill rolls, the Speed chart, odds to hit and damage rolls to start off with. Don't bother with multipowers, ECs or VPPs.

 

I probably complicated things a fair bit by starting off with superheroes too, so I'd suggest starting off with a Heroic level one off session. If you want to go straight for the supers though just dive right in with your players. Explain to them the basics behind the power design of HERO. Explain to them the concept of advantages and disadvantages, then get them to allocate some points on stats and skills. Follow this up by getting them to tell you what sort of powers they would like. Once they describe the effect they are trying to achieve you should be able to very easily design the power for them, making sure to explain what you are doing.

 

And remember: fudge everything you are not sure about. Not sure what disadvantage to apply or how much it costs? Well just make it all up. As you and your group design more and more characters you'll get the hang of things, and the entire thing will go smoother and smoother.

 

Avoid the crunchy bits during actual game play. If you hit your players with too much crunch they might get turned off from the entire thing. Instead emphasise that the power of HERO comes in being able to design anything you want and express it in game terms. Then follow it up by playing through a session that is very fast and relatively rules light. They'll hopefully love it and be hooked thereafter.

 

 

The Horror

[Klytus]

Re: Newbies, All

 

When you roll a Stun multiple on a Killing Attack you roll 1d6 -1 (range of 1 - 5). If you have a +1 Stun multiple, most of us (for a long time) were just rolling 1d6, the -1 + 1 cancelled each other out (range of 1 - 6). But it wasn't until this past year or so someone mentioned (and corroborated with Steve) that it is actually 1d6 - 1 + 1 (range of 2 - 6).

Dang. Count me among those who've been doing this wrong since Day One.

[Rapier]

Re: Newbies, All

 

WHAT?!?

 

Okay I guess I'm a case-in-point...nigh onto 20 years with Hero and I've been doing a straight-up 1d6 for a +1 STUNx...

Dang. Count me among those who've been doing this wrong since Day One.

Yeppers. I was doing it wrong too. Although, it was one of things that I was like "ohhhhhhhhhh." I think it has to do with the way we were taught math.

 

We were taught to simplify at every opportunity as shortcuts. X + 1 - 1 = X. There is not even anything wrong with that method, but it doesn't cross-over into all areas (obviously).

 

There was an example math thing I remember:

 

A slug is at the bottom of a 10' well. Every day he climbs up 3'. During the night he sleeps and slides down 2' (thanks to the ooze). How long does it take the slug to reach the top and climb out?

 

The tendency is to say 3' - 2' = 1' and 10' / 1' per day = 10 days. But that is not what happens.

 

Day 1: Up 3' (3') down 2' (1')

Day 2: Up 3' (4') down 2' (2')

Day 3: Up 3' (5') down 2' (3')

Day 4: Up 3' (6') down 2' (4')

Day 5: Up 3' (7') down 2' (5')

Day 6: Up 3' (8') down 2' (6')

Day 7: Up 3' (9') down 2' (7')

Day 8: Up 3' (10') and climbs out.

 

Its the little things, that we read in the book and missed. Sometimes (usually) then don't even make any difference. But sometimes it does. I've seen a number of house rules that are created to fix what is perceived as a defect in the rules...when in fact it was a defect in the understanding of the rules.

 

I would hate for anyone to get bogged down in something like this and get frustrated and drop Hero, simply because there was things they missed. Which is inevitable. Non-Personal Transmission of Information (reading/writing) is inexact.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Well, personally, I've made bigger mistakes than that in my Hero career. Hell, until I got 4th Ed, I was adding all my Advantages and Limitations together and THEN applying that to the base cost. It didn't make a difference if there were either no Advantages or no Limitations, or if they exactly cancelled each other out, but if say, you had +1 Advantages and -1/2 Limitations, things went screwy.

[Batman]

Re: Newbies, All

 

A lot of you guys seem to be suggesting that I should lay off on supers until my gaming group got the hang of the basic rules. This makes sense, especially because I don't even know if I've gotten the hang of the basic rules.

 

The only reason I'm hesitant about running a normal Heroic game is because the main reason my players are interested in Hero is because it's an actual workable superhero game...I don't think it'd go too well with them if I pulled a "Hey! We're actually playing Pulp Hero!" number on them.

 

Perhaps what I could do is either get the Dark Champions or Star Hero genre books [another blow to my already thin student wallet] and play a Heroic Campaign with Bad@$$ Guns...the groups I play with, for the most part, can be categorized as Power Gamers [not that we don't mind a bit of good storytelling and role-playing, mind you...it's just that we'd rather kill Mr. Bond first instead of telling him our plot to take over the world...hey, we're students!], so allowing an outlet to vent our daily frustrations would be a good idea. I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard to switch from a Dark Champions or Star Hero one-off into Champions...?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Batman,

I haven't read every reply, but I might be going against the grain here. If I understand correctly, you are all new to the Hero system, right?

 

If that is the case... here is my suggestion.

 

Get as far the hell away from these boards as you can.

 

Instead, do what you are doing. Read the books, try to run some games. Tell your players "Hey, I'm new at this too. I'll make any interpretations I need to during a game, and we'll see if it works. Later, outside the game, if we are really stuck, I'll look some stuff up... but this is OUR game... so as GM I'll interpret it the way WE have fun playing. Later, we can see what others do."

 

If you spend so much time worrying about the "right way" to do it... you'll never actually game. Just play... laugh at mistakes... try to look up no more than three rules a session... and just tell stories and play characters. Learn it a bit at a time, as you play... as things become relevant.

 

THEN... later, when you are having fun, but finding some sticking points where nobody has an interpretation that is "good enough"... come back here and ask around.

 

This isn't to say you aren't welcome. I didn't want to sound like that... but I am concerned about the overwhelming number of different ideas and interpretations you'll get... all claiming to be the one true Hero faith... which could only serve to make you give up the game, rather than make it your own. I know that I learned the system back in '81 when the internet was just geek myth (for all intents and purposes) and computers had to be loaded with tapes and punch cards. You don't need this site to play Hero... especially with Sidekick. You just need some imagination and willingness to make mistakes.

 

The best thing is... if you get to teach the other players... then they will learn YOUR version of Hero... which will eliminate many conflicts and issues. That is a wonderful thing, IMO. Don't let these boards take that away from you.

HERETIC!!! Burn him!!!

[The Horror]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Well, if you guys are keen on playing a supers game I say you just go for it. Get everyone to design 350 pt characters and learn the system. After a couple of sessions let everyone go back and completely redesign their characters. You'll probably need to do this since there will be a lot of things that you'll all have missed.

 

If the players are interested then you've already won half the battle.

 

And I do recommend Sidekick. Probably a better investment to start off with than Star Hero or Dark Champions.

 

 

The Horror

[Batman]

Re: Newbies, All

 

The only reason I'm hesitant about running a normal Heroic game is because the main reason my players are interested in Hero is because it's an actual workable superhero game.

 

I can't believed I wrote that Gawd-awful sentence. The grammar is wrong, so so wrong.

 

It embarrasses me to say that I'm an English major at times like this.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Newbies, All

 

Well, if you guys are keen on playing a supers game I say you just go for it. Get everyone to design 350 pt characters and learn the system. After a couple of sessions let everyone go back and completely redesign their characters. You'll probably need to do this since there will be a lot of things that you'll all have missed.

 

If the players are interested then you've already won half the battle.

 

And I do recommend Sidekick. Probably a better investment to start off with than Star Hero or Dark Champions.

 

 

The Horror

 

I second this. Just try to keep things simple at first - lay off most of the optional rules, building characters with lots of Power Frameworks, and the Yield and Stop Sign Powers.

 

And I also agree that if you're going to invest in another book, Sidekick would be the best choice at this stage of your group's experience.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Newbies, All

 

The only reason I'm hesitant about running a normal Heroic game is because the main reason my players are interested in Hero is because it's an actual workable superhero game...

 

 

You could always go the Fantastic Four route. Make them normals, run an adventure (maybe more), lay some groundwork for the campaign, and then BAM! they're bathed in radiation and gain superpowers. Unless they're more into vigilante style heroes, then have their families murdered.

 

If things (somehow) go too awry to make a supers campaign of it before you actually do, just shut the whole thing down, and start a fresh campaign. You'll all still have a good idea of the basic rules, which was the idea.

[phydaux]

Re: Newbies, All

 

A lot of you guys seem to be suggesting that I should lay off on supers until my gaming group got the hang of the basic rules.

 

Not nessasarily.

 

Here's another question for you - Are you the only one who owns a rulebook?

 

If you can get at least one other person to commit to buying and reading FREd (ReFREd is better) then that will take some of the burden off you.

 

If EVERYONE owns a copy, even better.

 

Download the Resource Kit and print the GM's Screen, or use the one linked to on this thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25333

 

Play one game with simple hand-out characters

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25311

 

Perhaps Jim will even post the Hero Designer files.

 

BTW, even if the players don't want to pony out the chedder for ReFREd, MAKE THEM buy Hero Designer. In fact, if money is an issue and it comes down to ReFRED or Hero Designer, choose Hero Designer every time.

 

(And no "shareing" one copy among friends.)

 

Once the players play one game with hand-out characters, they can try their hand at character creation. They will quickly discover that character creation is a game unto itself, and is in fact one of the most fun parts of Champions.

 

Then play a few game. If a player wants to rework a character, let him. Play a few more games. If you find you have been playing a particular thing wrong say "D'oh! Doppy me!" and just learn from the experience.

 

REMEMBER - If you're all having fun, then you are doing it correctly.