Is Flying Dodge too good?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

As a GM, you are free to use dramatic and common sense to enforce the interpretation you give above. That's the difference between treating the combat as a role playing excercise and treating it as an excercise in war-gaming. However, by-the-book, without the restrictions imposed by dramatic sense, DfC and Flying Dodge are war-gamist twinkery.

 

(Re-statement of my position for those who don't like to read the whole thread before replying: these rules work well enough in the right campaigns and with the right characters, so long as dramatic and common sense are kept in mind. It is when GMs start to treat this as a war-game rather than an RPG that you get absurd situations like the Flash missing his attempt to punch a normal security guard.)

I still think advantage of an unblockable punch should be paid for. A high DEX doesn't make a punch unblockable/unavoidable, even my a normal twerp. Technically nothing would, except if the twerp didn't see it coming and didn't know to get out of the way. Like an IPE punch for example.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I still think advantage of an unblockable punch should be paid for. A high DEX doesn't make a punch unblockable/unavoidable' date=' even my a normal twerp. Technically nothing would, except if the twerp didn't see it coming and didn't know to get out of the way. Like an IPE punch for example.[/quote']

 

I like the idea of an IPE punch for the Flash; it's in genre, and it works. He can use it to teach Martial Artist Criminals the meaning of real speed. For Fred, a simple massive CV and DEX advantage should be enough. Fred can even try the standard Block maneuver if he's feeling lucky.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I still think advantage of an unblockable punch should be paid for. A high DEX doesn't make a punch unblockable/unavoidable' date=' even my a normal twerp. Technically nothing would, except if the twerp didn't see it coming and didn't know to get out of the way. Like an IPE punch for example.[/quote']

 

And i think an auto evade should cost more than 5pts/ not exist because its a absoloute (something hero dosent do apparently). At what level of dex\and speed should fred be unable to avoid the flashes attack. 100 10,000 1000,000 at what point does it become silly?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

And i think an auto evade should cost more than 5pts/ not exist because its a absoloute (something hero dosent do apparently). At what level of dex\and speed should fred be unable to avoid the flashes attack. 100 10' date='000 1000,000 at what point does it become silly?[/quote']

I do see your point here. But for that 5 points (pluss at least 5 points in other maneuvers, not just 5 points) should only be spend this way for character for which it is appropriate anyway. I'm sure not many overweight secruity guards know martial arts, and even those who do won't have Flying Dodge. Naturally, they can still DFC.

 

Another thing to consider is surprise. A GM could easily say that because character X has such an agility advantage over an opponent, the first attack counts as a surprise maneuver. This would be a case by case basis though. Yet another thing to consider is who is playing the guard. If it's just an NPC, it's completely up to the GM if he can be hit at all anyway, and the dice don't really matter any more and only come into play if the GM says so (most GMs I know would just say "roll damage" after the attack is declaired, or just skip to describing how the guards collapses under the blow). If the guard is the PC, ask that player what he thinks is fair...

[Rune]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I don't allow Flying Dodge in my campaign. Putting aside the ability to avoid HTH attacks and Area of Effect attacks, this 5 point martial arts maneuver represents 4 levels in DCV that only work when the character performs a Full Move. That is 20 points with some kind of Limitation, but I don't see that Limitation being worth -3, even taking into account the price break provided by Martial Arts and the fact that you need to take at least 10 points in Martial Arts.

 

It's just too efficient a manuever for my taste.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Stupid question: Where do I find the rules for Flying Dodge?

 

I looked in indexes of FREd, UMA, and the Bestiary.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I don't allow Flying Dodge in my campaign. Putting aside the ability to avoid HTH attacks and Area of Effect attacks, this 5 point martial arts maneuver represents 4 levels in DCV that only work when the character performs a Full Move. That is 20 points with some kind of Limitation, but I don't see that Limitation being worth -3, even taking into account the price break provided by Martial Arts and the fact that you need to take at least 10 points in Martial Arts.

 

It's just too efficient a manuever for my taste.

 

Actually... remember, it doesn't overlap with regular dodge. That makes it a heck of a lot worse.

[Edsel]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Stupid question: Where do I find the rules for Flying Dodge?

 

I looked in indexes of FREd, UMA, and the Bestiary.

The manuver is in the Hand-To-Hand Martial Maneuvers table on page 9 of UMA. To determine how it works you need to look at the Maneuver Elements in UMA; Abort (page 91), Dodge (page 92), FMove (page 93). This maneuver sparked quite a few questions that are addressed in the rules FAQ The most relevant of which are quoted below.

 

 

Q: If a character has a Held Half Action, may he use it to use the Flying Dodge maneuver from UMA? If so, does that mean he gets a Half Move and the +4 DCV bonus?

A: Yes, and yes.

 

Q: If a character Aborts to a Flying Dodge, does he get the Full Move worth of movement normally associated with the maneuver?

A: Yes.

 

Q: Does Flying Dodge work like “Martial Dive For Cover�

A: No. Flying Dodge functions differently — it doesn’t require a DEX Roll, render a character “prone,†or the like.

If a character with Flying Dodge moves out of the way of an area-affecting attack, compare the inches moved to where the attack hits (typically the hex the character was formerly standing in) and the attack’s size — it’s possible that, as with a Dive For Cover, the character’s movement didn’t carry him far enough to get out of the way. If the Flying Dodge’s movement carries him beyond the area covered by the Area Of Effect/Explosion, then the attack doesn’t affect him.

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a ranged non-area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the maneuver, but he’s not automatically missed — the attacker still gets a roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it’s a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.

 

Q: If a character performs a Flying Dodge and goes around a corner so his attacker cannot see him, does that mean his attacker’s attack automatically misses?

A: No. From a dramatic perspective, you have to remember that the combat rules model a highly dynamic situation — two or more characters acting in the midst of battle — with a relatively rigid set of timed and controlled actions. It’s not as if one character moves while everyone else does nothing, then the next person acts, and so on — all the actions in a combat Segment are occurring more or less “at once,†but are resolved in a certain order to manage the game. The attacker’s attack might hit just as the character starts his Flying Dodge or the like. The fact that he declares that he’s moving around an obstacle doesn’t ensure that he’ll get there in time — all the maneuver provides is a DCV bonus.

 

Q: If a character Aborts to a Flying Dodge against a Ranged attack, what Range Modifier applies?

A: The Range Modifier that would apply for the distance between the attacker and where the character is at the end of the character’s movement.

 

 

I think that's about it. The FAQ is represent Steven Long's view of the maneuver. A lot of people do not seem to agree with him.

 

I must also say that this is the longest running thread I ever started. I'd like to thank the academy and all of those who have made this possible, my GM Eosin and fellow players (even the power gamer).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I don't allow Flying Dodge in my campaign. Putting aside the ability to avoid HTH attacks and Area of Effect attacks' date=' this 5 point martial arts maneuver represents 4 levels in DCV that only work when the character performs a Full Move. That is 20 points with some kind of Limitation, but I don't see that Limitation being worth -3, even taking into account the price break provided by Martial Arts and the fact that you need to take at least 10 points in Martial Arts.[/quote']

 

Have you statted out the other Martial maneuvers? Martial Dodge is effectively 2 levels with DCV when dodging (6 points). Defensive Strike is +1 OCV (2 points) and +3 DCV (9 points) with one maneuver, and it doesn't cost 11 points.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

All these "Martial Arts are too cheap for what they do" complaints seem blissfully unaware that ultraslotted Multipowers can provide far better and more varied results, often for far fewer Character Points. The more slots in an MP, the less each slot costs proportionally. And MPs with 10 slots are not uncommon.

 

Hero is a points based system which requires constant monitoring by the GM to prevent deliberate (or even accidental) abuses. Any Power or Skill can be abused. I've actually heard a player state that his character could survive a fall from any height as long as he made his 17- Breakfall roll. Should we ban Breakfall, or do we simply tell Mr. Cheese that Breakfall won't help him when he's falling from the upper stratosphere regardless of how the rules read? Common sense and dramatic sense have to play a part too. Not every character can justify Flying Dodge, just as I'd have a tough time justifying Zl'f adding +45 STR as a slot in her Multipower.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

All these "Martial Arts are too cheap for what they do" complaints seem blissfully unaware that ultraslotted Multipowers can provide far better and more varied results' date=' often for far fewer Character Points. The more slots in an MP, the less each slot costs proportionally. And MPs with 10 slots are not uncommon.[/quote']

 

Not everyone who has reservations about the use of DfC and Flying Dodge is cautioning on the basis of MA being too cheap for what they do.

 

Hero is a points based system which requires constant monitoring by the GM to prevent deliberate (or even accidental) abuses. Any Power or Skill can be abused. I've actually heard a player state that his character could survive a fall from any height as long as he made his 17- Breakfall roll. Should we ban Breakfall, or do we simply tell Mr. Cheese that Breakfall won't help him when he's falling from the upper stratosphere regardless of how the rules read? Common sense and dramatic sense have to play a part too. Not every character can justify Flying Dodge, just as I'd have a tough time justifying Zl'f adding +45 STR as a slot in her Multipower.

 

Agreed on every point, except that I might permit Breakfall guy to jump from the stratosphere (for a -10 roll) in a wild pulp or similar campaign. It always (for me) comes down to asking if the application of a rule fits the genre and campaign. In Champions, I'd have no problems with a speedster like Zl'f using Passing Dodge to auto-evade a punch from a non-speedster; it's when you start letting the mechanics eclipse common and dramatic sense that the maneuver raises a red flag.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Agreed on every point' date=' except that I might permit Breakfall guy to jump from the stratosphere (for a -10 roll) in a wild pulp or similar campaign. It always (for me) comes down to asking if the application of a rule fits the genre and campaign. In Champions, I'd have no problems with a speedster like Zl'f using Passing Dodge to auto-evade a punch from a non-speedster; it's when you start letting the mechanics eclipse common and dramatic sense that the maneuver raises a red flag.[/quote']In a Pulp game, I might let such a character survive such a fall if they do some clever roleplaying, like Indiana Jones inflating the rubber raft in "Temple of Doom." No way would I allow it simply because a die roll was made.

 

As to allowing Zl'f to auto-evade a punch by a non-speedster with a Flying Dodge, that's obviously within her concept as a very fast character. Of course, given her extreme DCV and Overconfidence it's extremely unlikely Zl'f would Flying Dodge in the first place. She might Martial Block, but physically moving away probably wouldn't even occur to her in most circumstances. As with all abilities, Flying Dodge needs to be evaluated on an individual character basis. Flying Dodge makes sense for Zl'f; it would not be in concept for our team brick. And that's as it should be.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

...snip...

I must also say that this is the longest running thread I ever started.

...snip...

Actually, this previous Flying Dodge thread was longer (and sometimes more heated).

 

HM

[Keldon]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Ok read this thread with much annoyance

 

a few points are...

 

1> it dosent cost 5 points for a flying dodge, it costs 10 unless you have other manuvers, thanks to the 10 point minimum in martial arts

 

2> fred the security guard will have a hard time fitting a martial dodge of any kind into his character concept!

 

3> Bob the super speed super's punch is just a punch, in other words not bullet fast or amazingly unavaoidable, unless it is bought as IPE or Indirect, special effects only go so far!!

 

not meaning to sound hostile or anything just a few points that bugged me

[Fox1]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Not everyone who has reservations about the use of DfC and Flying Dodge is cautioning on the basis of MA being too cheap for what they do.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't care how much it costs myself, it's an ability I don't want in the game.

[JmOz]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Well the necromancer has brought this issue alive again.

 

I will restate my house rule for new people

 

FMove count's as movement, all rules regarding movement are the controlling element, the FMove element can be ignored if you choose

 

In otherwords if you abort to flying dodge you get +4 DCV, you don't get to move (as movement is not an abortable action)