CPaladino Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I was flipping through my DC book last week, and saw the Harbinger of Justice. I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books. He's what, 800 pts? Way too high for any dark-champions game I'd be running. He has a Variable Power Pool for his guns which he warps in from another dimension to use. What do I even say to THAT? Dark champions don't teleport guns from anywhere. They pull them out of their holsters. Am I in the minority on THIS issue too? I just would like dark champs. to be very Punisher-esque. Punisher fighting a low-powered super is ok, but Harbinger is just too hokey for my tastes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Re: Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice... Originally posted by CPaladino I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books. Well, if I'm not mistaken that's Mr. Long's own character, and he actually *earned* all those points over a long time in play. So I don't really mind so much seeing him, although a "Harbinger lite", basically him as he's just starting out rather than after years and years of odd events that gives him access to super tech extradimensional spaces and hundreds of Contacts, might be fun to see. On the other hand, I'm not much of a Dark Champions kind of guy, myself, so maybe I'm biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 mmmm... "Harbringer: Year One" could work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPaladino Posted April 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I was aware that Steve wrote the book, I didn't know he played that character through all those experience points though... Doesn't change a whole lot though. While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff. It's pretty 4-color to me. Batman, or Nightwing is about as 4-color as I'd want to get in a Dark Champs. setting. I'm a HUGE Punisher fan, so I like the idea of doing the level just above the "modern" era. I mean, Lethal Weapon is good and all, but I'm personally loving the idea of super-powered Lethal Weapon. Punisher is good because he interacts with the 4-color guys, lives in their world, and fights against some pretty tough guys (where he needs to call in 4-color backup), but the setting is grim and dark. The DC book as a whole was just awesome. It hit on exactly what I wanted 90% of the time. Harbinger just seemed "out of place" in that book. I mean, he just screamed "too 4-color" for me, even though his personality and motivation may have fit in the DC world, he didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 You are probably in the minority as there are several Harbinger fans around. just beware of anyone singing Blue Moon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by CPaladino While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff. I see the Harbinger as a bridging character that came from Dark Champions roots and grew into what he is today after many, many adventures. It's the kind of thing that happens in games that you just won't see in comics, because people want character growth and don't want the writers coming in and stripping them of years of continuity like they do in comics. That's part of why I wouldn't mind: he may seem out of place now, but he wasn't, originally. Something that gives more of a feel for that growth, such as doing a Year One version, could certainly be useful. Think of Batman, though: he really is a better example than the Punisher for this. The original character was pretty Dark Champions (Villain falls to his death, and his comment is along the lines of, "That saves society the expense of a trial"), but has grown into a Four Color character over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 The Harbinger of Beatdown? Honestly, I think the Harbinger was there for two reasons: 1. Kind of a Smorgasbord. Excepting the infinite-gun VPP dealy, he had a little of everything skill-power-talent wise, so someone who hit a mental block could look over his sheet and go, 'A-HA! THAT'S what I'm missing!' 2. Plot device. He's there to lure the PCs places you want them to go, give cryptic advice, and/or get shot to pieces so your PCs know that they're in deep kimchee now. Just what is 'dark' varies, I think. Depending on the writer, Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Batman are as Dark Champs as the Punisher; they just don't use guns. I think it's more a matter of setting and atmosphere than powers, points, or abilities. There's nothing saying Dark Champs characters have to be gun-toting killers. I remember an old Captain America miniseries where he went street-level investigating the drug trade. Sounds like something the Punisher does ... but it was good ol' Cap. Things got a *lot* more complicated, but anyway, let's move on, shall we? For instance, Spider-Man very often is Dark Champs; down on the street-level of importance and influence, not making a huge difference in the way people's lives are lived, that sort of thing. Then, he guest stars in Avengers or joins the latest Cosmic Crossover (a la Secret Wars), and converts to Four-Color Mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 just a thought Let's not forget, for some, before Steve Long, not as many played in the style of 'Dark Champions'. Steve could have started Harbringer out in a rather gray Champions game, wanting to RP a 'true' vigilante, to see where it would go. Then again, maybe not But if he did, it would certainly explain some unreal elements if the character was teamed up with the likes of energy projectors and super powered bricks at the start of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTJoshua Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time? My understanding was that the VPP was not cosmic at all, it functioned as a special effect similar to the Vanishing Teleport also mentioned in DC. It's still technically a Teleport, but the effect is that the PC had to be able to get from point A to B; likewise, Harbinger doesn't really reach across dimension, he just always happened to bring the right gun for the right occasion. I always thought it was just kind of a Never Run Out Of Bullets/Hollywood gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by FTJoshua As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time? No, it's actually a teleport system, though I don't think it is actually extradimensional. The guns are described as having teleportation equipment installed so that he can bring them from one of his bases and send them back at need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZootSoot Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC; I thought he was mean to be the guy who had taken the vigilante thing too far and stepped over the line separating good from evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by ZootSoot Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC That's certainly a use for him, but I don't believe it was the original intent. I tend to think of all the characters like him (the Punisher, the Vigilante) that way, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Well, really, where that 'line' is is gonna vary from game to game ... I've always been of the 'anybody who kills crossed the line', but I'm not a Dark kinda guy. A lot of what the Harbinger is or isn't depends on your GM and style of game. If the PCs are all of the 'kill 'em all and let the mythological powers sort 'em out' type, then his particular brand of overkill is fine. If your game's more moderate, and you're trying to pull the 'There, but for the grace of said mythological powers, go I', where you're trying to show the PCs the result of a lack of moderation, then he's your sterling example of crossing the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I always thought HoJ was hilarious. Dark Champions starts with about 40 pages describing how to do a gritty, "street-level", low powered game. Then the first sample character is an 800 point monstrosity who teleports guns into his hands. That was "laugh out loud" funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I've always wondered whether and how much the Harbinger was changed for his writeup in Dark Champions; earned experience or not, I find it hard to imagine him working with any group of PCs as written, even other vigilantes. Harbinger's view of what constitutes a crime, and appropriate punishment, is so extremely black-and-white that I doubt he would be able to cooperate with anyone who wasn't an attitudinal clone of him. He just might have gotten along with the Protectors after their exposure to the Skull Pendant, though. FWIW, I used the Harbinger of Justice in one campaign I ran, essentially as a "villainous" opponent for the PCs. I decided that he was the Marksman (NPC hero mentioned in various old Champs books and in the Champions comic-book) after alteration by that same Skull Pendant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPaladino Posted April 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Beetle summed it up pretty well! I am finding I'm really in the minority in just about everything I've posted lately. (Art in the Hero Books; Multipower/EC; Dark Champs; etc). Our group of players and I share 75% of the same opinions, so I've always thought I was in the mainstream thinking here, I'm finding out otherwise! Can everyone agree at least that a 800pt. "gun-teleporter" may not be the BEST mascot for the Dark Champions books though? I'm not saying DC is all guns. I think Punisher, (certain titles) of Batman, Nightwing, are all good examples. Spider-Man I wouldn't personally consider DC. He rarely fights too many just out-and-out psycho characters. Venom is pretty much crazy, but only directs that hatred at Spidey. Carnage is out and out crazy, good DC character actually; Maybe the LIzard. I haven't read many current spidey adventures lately. But regardless. I'm just hoping for a little more appropriate mascot of the DC line... Preferrably someone who costs less than say 250 total pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Harbinger, the Elminster of Dark Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by GamePhil No, it's actually a teleport system, though I don't think it is actually extradimensional. The guns are described as having teleportation equipment installed so that he can bring them from one of his bases and send them back at need. One of the villains in "Murderer's Row" is a demon that pierced Earth's dimensional barriers by finding a pocket dimension full of guns and hitching a ride on one of them when the Harbinger summoned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperPheemy Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 One of the things I appreciated about the Harbinger in Dark Champions was his "iconic" feel. He wasn't necessarily a character one would be playing in the game, but his look, attitudes, and abilites did a good job of summing up the mood Dark Champions was trying to set. I think of the Harbinger as being similar to Batman from the venerable Batman Role Playing Game. Batman had stats and abilities that even a very experienced character couldn't achieve, but he was a good example of what type of character fits in Gotham City. When Dark Champions emphasizes low point values for characters, it's because at those low point values it is easeir to envorce the street level mood the game is stressing. 200 point characters are more likely to utilize real world weapons than flashy power armor, or cosmic abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balok Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I would consider Batman a Dark Champions style character -- he fights maniacs with few or no powers, mostly. And he fights a lot of ordinary crooks. Harbinger is, in a certain sense, what Batman would be if he didn't have *any* respect for criminals. See, Batman respects criminals as people, and therefore doesn't murder them or torture them. Harbinger lacks that restraining element. I'm not sure he as ever part of a team, and it's somewhat hard to imagine a typical four color team that would have him. I always saw him as a loner. Harbinger does have an opposite number, sort of. Check out Andres Panthanatos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I'm with the "Dark Champions" is about "feel" rather than "Guns and killing..." camp. Batman and Daredevil AND Punisher are the iconic DC characters, IMO. The fact that most people think DC means "Vigilante killers" was always kind of odd in my mind. DC, to me, meant "crime fighter" vs. "world saver." The focus was on human crime and criminals... local concerns... violence and it's effect on individual lives... rather than cosmic powers and saving the world and flying "above" humanity. The Punisher is one kind of DC character, but the Batman of Detective Comics (vs. the Batman of JLA... two different characters, if you ask me...) is also DC. HoJ is fine in "feel" except for the teleport thingee, IMO. While he should be amazingly gifted and deadly as he wants to be... part of the "feel" is dealing with realistic ballistics... running out of ammo... etc. The teleport gizmo just struck me as power gaming munchkinism. In my campaign, I have a long running, 550 pt. vigilante type who is TOTALLY in the right feel. I had to encourage the player to buy up the DEX and SPD a bit, but this guy is all about being the best "crime fighter" out there... not saving the world with the spandex crowd. God I love Dark Champions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbwar Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Re: Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice... Originally posted by CPaladino I was flipping through my DC book last week, and saw the Harbinger of Justice. I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books. He's what, 800 pts? Way too high for any dark-champions game I'd be running. He has a Variable Power Pool for his guns which he warps in from another dimension to use. What do I even say to THAT? Dark champions don't teleport guns from anywhere. They pull them out of their holsters. Am I in the minority on THIS issue too? I just would like dark champs. to be very Punisher-esque. Punisher fighting a low-powered super is ok, but Harbinger is just too hokey for my tastes... I think Harbinger fits fine. Sure, the teleporting guns is kind of high tech. So is all of Batman's vehicles. HoJ's nemesis, Card Shark, uses high tech gear, and some of his thugs are super powered. Harbinger is a perfect example of a DC character in a low supers style DC game. His only real power is the teleporation of his guns. I ran two Dark Champions games when it came out. One was a low supers game. It went ok, but I wasn't happy with it. My second one was more along the lines of street level heroes, with only gadgets as powers. While they all carried guns, some used cool gadgets (one pc used the utility belt from the supplements, and another one has a small vpp that he used to simulate various gadgets, since the character had been a special effects expert along the lines of Mysterio before he became a vigilante). I think HoJ should be in the next DC, just revised to fit him so that he isn't more along the lines of being an ally of the regular supers. Of course, that depends on how the next version of DC is going to be presented. if Low level supers will feature in it, then his guns as they were would fit, imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamo Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 In the Question on Dark Champions thread, Steve limited his commentary concerning the Blue Moon Killer to the following: There will be no Bang-o the Justice Dog. Other than that, I'm keeping it all secret for now... Speaking for myself, I like ol' Harby and would be terribly disappointed if I didn't see him in all his killer vigilante glory somewhere in the Dark Champions line. While I respect CPaladino's dislike for the character, I find the "I don't like this, so I don't want to see it in the product" stance remarkably tiresome. Don't like it? Don't use it, ignore it, don't read it, skip the page(s), tear the section out of your copy and burn it. Whatever, I want my Harbinger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Re: Re: Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice... Originally posted by urbwar Harbinger is a perfect example of a DC character in a low supers style DC game. His only real power is the teleporation of his guns. You think HoJ is "low" powered? Holy Cow! I'd tremble to see your high power campaigns. Granted he doesn't do mega dice of damage, but his DEX and gadget and skill set would make him a challenge for all but your high powered TK or mentalist types, and he would still be quite effective from ambush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by death tribble You are probably in the minority as there are several Harbinger fans around. just beware of anyone singing Blue Moon.... I always think of the Mice Chorus from Babe when I see a reference to Blue Moon. And now I have an image of a crossover. ack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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