Terminal Velocity

[terriblyuncreat]

Here's another one for Foxhole...

 

How would you build a power that traps someone between two warps that are close together so that they fall out of one warp and into another one, basically catching them in a loop? The idea is that they continue to fall through these warps until they achieve a terminal velocity, then the power ends and they hit the ground.

 

The only thing that I can think of is an Entangle built with Transparency to Attacks, Continuous, Versus DEX not STR, NND (Flight and the like), linked to a 30d6 EB with a delayed effect. That's a lot of points. Any other ideas?

[Steve Long]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I've moved this, since it's a "how to" rather than a rules question.

 

Any ideas, Herodom Assembled?

[APE]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

How about a continous Teleport UAA only one direction up.

[Constantine]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

And here we get into the arguement of not how a power is made, but SHOULD it be made...

[MitchellS]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I'd build this as a two part power. The first part is 5" t-port UAA. This moves the person up into the air 5". The second part would be a 2d6 eb with 4 levels of double knockback back down to the ground. On average the character will hit the ground with 25d6 of force.

[Blue]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

And here we get into the arguement of not how a power is made' date=' but SHOULD it be made...[/quote']

 

 

I assume you are referring to the outrageous 30D6? Yeh, that's outside the scope of my campaign.

 

It's an interesting SFX, and it's easily foiled by anyone with flight, gliding, or other means of slowing themselves, and anyone with teleport can move themselves out of the loop for lesser damage. But for that villain with no means of spoiling it, that's one big splat they're going to make. Hope it's an Iron Age campaign.

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

If it can be built as exactlty as described and generates the effect you want, why not.

 

Better than 12d6eb, 1 turn delay or some such.

 

70Teleport 5", UAO, Range, constant (rather than continuous), 0 end, NRM, AA 1hex, x4mass, uncontrolled (fails when 200mph), lims pisses the gm off

[sinanju]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I'd build as a Physical Energy Blast (the impact of crashing into the ground) of Xd6 (not sure how much it would be), with Extra Time (to represent the time spent "falling" between gates), Uncontrolled, Continuous and maybe Indirect.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

The problem with 'just' teleport is that to get to terminal velocity you'd have to start a long way off the ground or have at least 58 inches of teleport: don't forget you fall between teleports.

 

If the GM allows you to do it with a teleport gate with the exit above the entrance, more fool him or her. It would probably need to be pretty big to stop you grabbing onto the sides. Of course if the GM lets you get away with putting the exit over the entrance, what is to stop you putting them so close together that the poor schmuck will never get out?

 

Or you could use munchkinscale....

[Constantine]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I assume you are referring to the outrageous 30D6? Yeh, that's outside the scope of my campaign....*snip*

 

 

That is exactly what I was talking about, thank you, Blue. Unless we are talking a Superman-level campaign, this kind of damage shouldn't be allowed in an attack....

[cmagoun]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

That is exactly what I was talking about' date=' thank you, Blue. Unless we are talking a Superman-level campaign, this kind of damage shouldn't be allowed in an attack....[/quote']

 

I suppose... but why not? Are we worried about disturbing the game balance? There must be other ways of balancing such an attack aside from just "how often does it hit" and "for how much."

 

The power in question would be useless against fliers and gliders and possibly superleapers. Even if the character is ground-bound, the attack would take quite a bit of time to build up to terminal velocity and in that time, the character's flying allies could help him. Even a solo, ground-bound character could evade this attack with minimal damage based on how the attack was written and the ruling of the GM (grabbing the side, webbing the portal, etc.).

 

If it hits at full power, then of course, the target is toast... but this is far more fallable (and thus tactically interesting) than a mere 30d6 EB.

[Constantine]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I suppose... but why not? Are we worried about disturbing the game balance? There must be other ways of balancing such an attack aside from just "how often does it hit" and "for how much."

 

The power in question would be useless against fliers and gliders and possibly superleapers. Even if the character is ground-bound, the attack would take quite a bit of time to build up to terminal velocity and in that time, the character's flying allies could help him. Even a solo, ground-bound character could evade this attack with minimal damage based on how the attack was written and the ruling of the GM (grabbing the side, webbing the portal, etc.).

 

If it hits at full power, then of course, the target is toast... but this is far more fallable (and thus tactically interesting) than a mere 30d6 EB.

 

There are always more balancing factors, of course. But am I truly the only person out there that has a problem with a character having a 30d attack of anykind? Maybe its appropriate for their world and campaign, but from the other post by the same person suggests, this character also wants a power that automatically reflects each and every melee attack back at the person throwing it. Munchkin, anyone???

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

[MitchellS]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

Actually terminal velocity is considered any falling speed over 120 mph. Also keep in mind that it takes 22d6 [with an average roll] to kill a normal and that a 30d6 fall will only do 5 body to an "average" hero. Thus the idea of 30d6 within the game. Personally I think falling damage should be converted to killing damage, but that's just me.

[Constantine]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

 

Whew! Good thing I'm not a GM...

 

But seriously, if terminal velocity is 200 mph, and you equate falling with a move through with no strength vs the earth at that speed, provided you don't move the earth , how much damage is that gonna be?

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

All the velocity based damage rules are wrong. Its why Move thrus so effective.

 

Is being hit by superman at full str equal to falling at 120mph? seriously.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity depends on your shape, relative to the direction of decent. It also depends greatly on the density of the atmosphere.

 

The record without any really special equipment is about 320 MPH. The actual record is mach several, accomplished once by an Air Force test pilot who bailed out of a baloon at the edge of the atmosphere and freefell for the longest distance, time and speed in history.

 

At close to sea level, and a subject that isn't interested in being a human lawn dart, the real number is closer to 150 MPH than 300.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

To answer the question, the ability to do 30d6 is extremely powerful. However, any flying character can already inflict this - Grab an opponent, fly up, drop opponent.

 

IIRC, it takes a long time to build up to 30" falling speed, so I suspect the attack will ultimately be ineffectual. Possible saves:

 

- target can fly/defy gravity himself

- target teleports out of warp field

- target is strong/has leaping (he can subtract leap " from velocity if he's ready for it, right?)

- Target's teammate does a "move through" to push him out of the warp field.

- Target's teammate catches him

- Target Acrobatically moves out of the warp field

 

There's likely lots of other saves possible.

[Blue]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Minor as it is, breakfall also can mitigate against a fall.

 

On another note, I've got 3PCs and 2 NPCS who get played frequently.

 

• My sidekick level PC is likely KO'd for a while, but takes no BODY at all. (She's all Defense)
  
• My veteran level PC flies away, no damage.
  
• My housebound hacker dies from a 24" fall, let alone 30".
  
• My urban gunslinger is KO'd for the next century, but survives.
  
• My teleporter is low defense, so will take STUN, but probably no BODY, since she'd teleport out early in the falling process.

 

I just think that's an interesting cross-section how that worked out: 1 Dies, 1 Comatose, 1 KO'd, 1 Injured, 1 No Damage.

 

There's reason they call it Terminal Velocity. I think the 1"=1D6 works fine. Heroes *should* feel some danger from falling off the wing of a plane during a fight.

 

I still wouldn't allow the power though.

[SirViss]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

... IIRC' date=' it takes a long time to build up to 30" falling speed, so I suspect the attack will ultimately be ineffectual. ...[/quote']

 

Well, it depends if you think 6 segments is a long time (5" first segment, 10" next, etc.).

 

But it does take a long distance. 105" is a LONG way to drop.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Well let's see. Terminal velocity is 30d6 averaging 105 stun and 30 body, and coming pretty close to that average given the number of dice.

 

The Body probably won't kill most superheroes unless they are hit several times: let is ignore it for the moment.

 

The stun will be a problem for most heroes. Interestingly a 6d6 killing attack does that much stun exactly (assuming an average body roll) 1 time in 6. Maybe that is a chetnut for another thread...

 

So what do you want to do with falls? Should they be deadly or not?

 

A 120mph fall is not the same as a being hit by a 100kg mass travelling at 120mph (assuming a speed of 5 you would need about 65" of movement, so assuming a base strength of 10, you would take 25d6).

 

That's an interesting point, BTW, the hero speed system really messes with move throughs: the higher your speed the less damage you do even though you may be moving at the same actual velocity as a character with a lower speed - e.g. Spd 4, 30" movement is about 45mph in combat and so is Spd 8, 15" movement, but the former adds 10 dice and the latter adds 5. Seems odd...you may want to use an alternative calculation for move through damage there...say inches per turn divided by your campaign average speed)

 

So anyway, do you want long falls to be scarier than 30 body and 105 stun v normal defences? It has been pointed out that dying in a long fall isn't very heroic, but not dying isn't very realistic. mind you superheroes are not realistic, so my view is it is probably OK where it is.

 

Mind you I don't think I would be happy about Foxhole's proposed attack even with all the suggested safeguards. Do not forget that acceleration is per segment not per phase so it builds up pretty rapidly - about six segments or two or three phases to terminal velocity - not a lot of time to pull a rescue mission.

[terriblyuncreat]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

 

The 30d6 was referring to the damage done after falling for 6 segments from 105" or more, 5E 291. I don't know anything about the 20-year old core rule, and I am, in fact, the moron that's only been running HERO for about a year.

 

Incidentally, there's an elementary school forum a few websites down the block for name-callers. I came to these forums for advice, not to take flak for asking questions in the first place.

 

--terriblyuncreative

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Wasent directed at you.

 

But look at the numbers, being hit by someone who can lift 25million tons, hitting the ground at 150mph/66m/s.

 

I have a large gripe about some rules etched in stone that are simply not addressed each rules update.

[Alibear]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

 

 

You sure do have a way about you, Vorsch. Diplomacy and tact are not your strong points I see.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

You sure do have a way about you' date=' Vorsch. Diplomacy and tact are not your strong points I see. [/quote']

 

Oh I don't know, I always thing friend Vorsch has the advantage of consistency: you know it isn't you in particular he he having a go at, it is the group you belong to: everyone.

 

The move through damage rules are rubbish though.

 

As terriblyuncreat quite properly reminds us, he has posted to get some advice. i've been and read his original post and here it is:

 

Here's another one for Foxhole...

 

How would you build a power that traps someone between two warps that are close together so that they fall out of one warp and into another one, basically catching them in a loop? The idea is that they continue to fall through these warps until they achieve a terminal velocity, then the power ends and they hit the ground.

 

The only thing that I can think of is an Entangle built with Transparency to Attacks, Continuous, Versus DEX not STR, NND (Flight and the like), linked to a 30d6 EB with a delayed effect. That's a lot of points. Any other ideas?

 

I like the entangle idea - it is far better than trying to do it with monkey mechanics. not sure you should have NND, which is an advantage, you should have a limitation - escapable by flight (you can already teleport out of entangles. Vs DEX not STR would definitely be an advantage, and it doesn't need to be continuous as entangle, whilst instant, doesn't go away if not maintained. As for the damage, the only legitimate way you can do it is to buy 30d6 of EB: you can't really rely on actually building up velocity - that would be meta gaming, surely.

 

Darned expensive power. Cool effect but not worth it, and probably wouldn't be allowed in most games anyway. I'd want you to build it as a UAA teleport and you can teleport them straight up as high as you can afford to pay points for. No where near as deadly, as you won't be able to afford 105" straight up.

 

I think terriblyuncreat got it pretty much right from the start and I for one have been ignoring him, so I think I'll rep him for reminding me of what I'm doing here.

 

Cheers.