"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Well, they DID show this fight in the JLA/Avengers crossover. I'd say that Mjolnir just hits someone with the impact of an indestructible weapon hitting with the force of someone able to punch through a battleship behind it. In other words, it's going to hurt....no matter WHO you are or how invulnerable you think you are. But I'd say it otherwise isn't any more damaging then a tech weapon of similiar stats. Now, Thor can channel mystic/cosmic power through the hammer by channeling energy through interdimensional gates. That WILL hurt Supes more than normal I'd say. My only problem with the fight in the crossover is that they made it WAY too easy for Supes to win. I just don't think it would be that easy. Then they try to cop it out by having Supes say it was the toughest fight he ever had. I doubt that. The writers had Supes basically beat him pretty easily.....

 

Rob

[assault]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Superman's ... Power Defense ...

 

I'm not sure Superman actually has Power Defence. He seems to suck against all drainers, not just magical ones. The Parasite is the classic example.

 

He might have some Power Defence if it's required to defend against environmental hazards, but he doesn't seem to have a form of it usable in combat.

 

Edit: Most of the "normal" weapons built using Drain or Transform seem to involve limitations like "must hit non-armoured hit location" and so on, which would stop them from working against Superman, as long as "non-armoured" is actually read as "has no resistant defences". Presumably most gas effects would be stopped by appropriate Life Support.

 

OK, so he might have a _little_ bit of Power Defence. Just not lots.

[HeroGM]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

From what one writer of the Superman book has said, Superman has the same resitanence to magic as the normal person. IE little to none. Notice the normal person part though. IF your going to include that part into it all then just use the limitation on it all.

[Superskrull]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Wow! I really like that permeable. I'll have to steal that. Thanks.

 

In the interests of attributing credit where it is due, Agent X was the one who first came up with that particular limitation in our gaming group. Amusingly enough, I think it was done in an attempt to properly model Superman's powers. As Champsguy would agree, it seems to work quite well in pactice as we've used it for several years.

[casualplayer]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Most "magic" is actually Visible (or visible to readers at least) Mental Powers, and Supes doesn't have much if any Mental Defense. Monstrous EGO, but no MD.

 

He holds up just fine to kinetic energy from magic sources, or the numerous demons he has fought would have popped him like a grape. The end-around powers get him everytime, like Drains and Ego Attacks that he thinks are Energy Blasts.

 

That said, Thor's full-bore hammer attack gets Galactus' attention.

[st barbara]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I leave for a little while and THIS type of thread is back ? Nothing changes, does it ?

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I leave for a little while and THIS type of thread is back ? Nothing changes' date=' does it ?[/quote']

 

Not much, no. Superman still kicks Thor's ass, Batman still kicks Captain America's butt, Takofanes still owns Dr. Destroyer, etc...

 

 

 

 

[megaplayboy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Well, I'm pretty sure Odinpowered-Thor beats post-Crisis, pre-death Supes into red and blue mulch, and pre-Crisis supes beats Hela-cursed Thor into Asgardian protoplasm.

[Southern Cross]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Actually,I think that even the Golden Age Superman could beat Hela-cursed Thor,if he attacked before Thor forged that magical armor.

[Starlord]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I've commented on this topic numerous times in the past so I'll go in slightly different direction....

 

Extremely underused but devastating weapons:

 

Superman

-Flash-level superspeed

 

Thor

-Mjolnir's 'magical' life drain ability

-Extradimensional transport usable on others

 

At least Thor has explanations for his handicapping. The life drain ability is so powerful and deadly he will only use it as a last resort. The XD transport ability is also last resort, but mainly explained because Thor wants to physically defeat his opponents.

 

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I've commented on this topic numerous times in the past so I'll go in slightly different direction....

 

Extremely underused but devastating weapons:

 

Superman

-Flash-level superspeed

 

Thor

-Mjolnir's 'magical' life drain ability

-Extradimensional transport usable on others

 

At least Thor has explanations for his handicapping. The life drain ability is so powerful and deadly he will only use it as a last resort. The XD transport ability is also last resort, but mainly explained because Thor wants to physically defeat his opponents.

 

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

 

Doesn't need to, for the most part.

 

Supes' standard tactic when encountering a foe is to brace with his flight and allow the attack to bounce harmlessly off his chest. This serves two purposes:

1) It prevents the attack from hitting something that's much less durable that Supes, like a bystander or a skyscraper.

2) When it (95% of the time) bounces off his chest to no effect, it's really impressive, so Supes gets a big bonus to his Presence Attack when he tells them to throw down their weapons and give up.

 

It's also smart to keep a power or two in reserve. As it is, he can always fall back on his superspeed if he needs to, and the villain is like "Oh yeah, I forgot he could do that..."

[proditor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Well, remember that idea I was going for here was more of "How do you write this up and run it in your games", not "Did Marvel get nerfed in the crossover?"

 

I always took the weakness to mean that Supes had no special defences against a specific enchantment. Now part of this requires some speculation, but that's in part because getting some consistency on this issue is nigh impossible. So if Wonder Woman has a sword that "Shave the atoms off of an electron", that says to me it is enchanted to cut through darn near anything. One of the spells on it is "Cut through stuff well". So, supes gets no special defenses against it and is in trouble. Conversely, Mjolnir has no "Smash stuff to rubble" enchantment, because based on the hammer being unbreakable and Thor being strong enough to lift the Brooklyn Bridge, well, it just wasn't needed. So if you gave Thor a Promethium or Adamantium hammer, he'd do about as much bashing damage as he would with Mjolnir.

 

As to the magic creatures bit...eh...I'd really like to see some internal consistency in that, but I'm wishing for the moon. Supes vs. Vampires seems to depend completely on the writer, though since Dracula was able to bite into Colossus, I guess everyone is guilty of Anne Rice imitation.

 

I'll just curse John Byrne for muddying the waters yet again in JLA and then ask ya'll to go look at my how to write up the Silver samurai's energy field in the Hero Discussion forum.

[CBikle]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

 

Yes. Here's some theories:

 

1 Like the Flash and other speedsters, Superman's super-speed isn't "always on" (waiting 10 seconds in super-speed perception would seem like 10,000,000 years to them; it would make them incapable of interacting with the real world in any kind of normal manner if they were always moving at this speed).

 

2 Superman's connection to the Speed Force (the physical reason of how speedsters operate in the DCU) isn't as strong or comfortable for him to use due to his alien heritage or maybe because his attunement to it isn't as natural as, say, the Flash.

 

3 Maybe operating at Super-Speed requires a greater degree of concentration or maybe Supes has to be "fully charged" with yellow-sun radiation.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

 

 

I thought this topic was no longer up for discussion.

 

Nooooo though every couple of months someone's got to bring up the Thor/Supes fight.

 

Starlord don't forget that Thor has a massive area power where he can unleash Mjolnir's might on multiple enemies at once through a lighting storm type magical attack effect which has taken care of several 'speedsters' in the past and Supes would be no different.

 

On a side note ALL of Thor's attacks involving Mjolnir are considered mystical IMO and as far as the comics are concerned. Mjolnir's attacks have always effected mystical types who cannot be hurt by normal attacks. Juggernaught, Mephisto, Giants, Kurse, Other 'gods' etc. So depending on your build for Superman he would be in for 1 and one half tons of arse whoopin' via Thor if he's got magical vulnerabilities.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I'm thinking it would go something like...

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Funny image but remember one more thing about Thor. In the DC world WW is not as strong as Supes but she always gives him a run when they've fought for whatever convoluted reason. Why? Training. She is just a better fighter on down the line. Now give that training to someone who IS as strong but with more mystical abilities.

 

Thor wins.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Hmmm.... nope, I'm gonna go with the photographic evidence.

 

"SMACK... OWNED". "Nice hammer, think I'll keep it".

 

Plus I saw how Thor fared in the Marvel-DC crossover, in the JLA-Avengers crossover, and am thinking that I can't recall a case where he actually beat the Man of Steel. Anyone?

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Hmmm.... nope, I'm gonna go with the photographic evidence.

 

"SMACK... OWNED". "Nice hammer, think I'll keep it".

 

Plus I saw how Thor fared in the Marvel-DC crossover, in the JLA-Avengers crossover, and am thinking that I can't recall a case where he actually beat the Man of Steel. Anyone?

 

Give and take, and the original crossover was a vote(I'm a Wolverine fan but let's be real Lobo would kick Wolvie around like a toy.), and I guarantee that DC writers and Marvel writers got together and said. "Alright you can't make Spidey, Wolverine, or Cap look bad and We can't Make Batman, Superman or WonderWoman get egg on their face. Agreed? Agreed. hrumph, hrumph, hrumph, hrumph..."

 

 

Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is.

 

Also, the person in the pic has a sword right? Okay...just checking.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Give and take, and the original crossover was a vote(I'm a Wolverine fan but let's be real Lobo would kick Wolvie around like a toy.), and I guarantee that DC writers and Marvel writers got together and said. "Alright you can't make Spidey, Wolverine, or Cap look bad and We can't Make Batman, Superman or WonderWoman get egg on their face. Agreed? Agreed. hrumph, hrumph, hrumph, hrumph..."

 

 

Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is.

 

Also, the person in the pic has a sword right? Okay...just checking.

 

Fair enough... so who won when Superman and Thor threw down in the comics? Hmmm?

 

I'm sure there are plenty of Yankees fans out there who feel their team "should have" won last year. Heck I was sorely disappointed by the performance of "my team" this year (to continue my sports analogy). As I'm fond of saying however, "wish in one hand & crap in the other... see which fills up first".

[proditor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Funny image but remember one more thing about Thor. In the DC world WW is not as strong as Supes but she always gives him a run when they've fought for whatever convoluted reason. Why? Training. She is just a better fighter on down the line. Now give that training to someone who IS as strong but with more mystical abilities.

 

Thor wins.

Hrm...I swore I wasn't going to go into the Superman/Thor thing since that wasn't my intent, but WW gives him a hard time in part because Supes never cuts loose on her.

 

Oh, here's a question...Diana is made from clay that had life breathed into it from the gods right? So following the idea of mystical being=dead Superman...well, ya'll should see the continuity breakdown without any more help from me.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Fair enough... so who won when Superman and Thor threw down in the comics? Hmmm?

 

I'm sure there are plenty of Yankees fans out there who feel their team "should have" won last year. Heck I was sorely disappointed by the performance of "my team" this year (to continue my sports analogy). As I'm fond of saying however, "wish in one hand & crap in the other... see which fills up first".

 

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

 

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.

[OddHat]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

 

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.

 

So, it's your belief that if only the writers would get out of the way Thor and Supes could really throw down?

 

[proditor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

 

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.

I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get, and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?

[OddHat]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get' date=' and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?[/quote']

 

Has the magical girdle that grants WW's some of strength been dropped in the latest versions?

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

So, it's your belief that if only the writers would get out of the way Thor and Supes could really throw down?

 

 

Wow where did you come up with that? Kind of a stretch eh? No I was making the point that the companies are going to do what is in their best interest. Thor the property of Marvel will not beat Superman the property of DC because Thor losing is not a black-eye to Marvel while Superman losing would be to DC which is why there will be ground rules set forth before the two companies ever collaborate. That's a major reason why JLA/Avengers was almost 8 years in the making. No one wanted to see their precious characters lose and in turn lose face for their company.

 

I would like to see a writer who has had experience with both characters(They're out there.) do something involving the two of them. This is easily the 'hottest' and most contested little piece of comic-geekdom that goes way beyond the HERO boards.

 

Of course that ill never happen so Superman will always beat Thor in any crossover written because of the particular character's status within the company.