Got the Metal in the Meat

[SuperPheemy]

I'm working on some Cyberpunk Hero constructs for a campaign (and for Kublacon, just two months away...). I'm wondering, should Cyberware be Equipment (and thus cost bucks, euro, yen, rupies, etc...) or Powers (and thus cost CP)? Right now, I'm leaning towards Equipment because it's more of a Cyberpunk feel. If you got the Cash, you can affoard to buy yourself all the reflexes, skills, and muscles you want.

 

What do my fellow Guru's think (and what is the opinion of our sagacious Line Developer?)

[Blue]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

In Hero System I could honestly see it going either way.

 

If you want players to be able to modify themselves in whatever way they want, then go with Points. If you are giving them a limited menu of items to choose from (Like only 3 models of cyber arms with specific stats) then you could go either way.

 

If money is too easy to get in your campaign then it could be trouble. If the money is tightly controlled then it should work out just as well as using points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

My inclination is to go with points, simply because I've played enough cyber-punk games that the players who cyber to the max tend to overshadow the players who role play (I hate cyberware: I feel it is invasive and I wouldn't allow anyone to graft me - good enough concept, but the cyber-users will wind up with a (on paper) 'better' character, if it is just about money).

 

Anyway, how do you get money? Spend points? That wouldn't seem fair....

 

If you do go with money then there has to be a serious down-side to over-cybering (cyber psychosis, or whatever) OR serious restraints on what cyber-ware is available.

 

Ultimately it is a question of balance: if all the players are happy, you are doing it right. If just one or two PCs star in every scene, you are probably doing it wrong...

[Herolover]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

If this is a Convention game then I go with points that way you know for sure the cyberware characters are balanced with everyone else. Also, if it is a convention game the question between money and points really does't matter since during the game they probably aren't going to be able to spend money to improve themselves.

 

If on the other hand this is a campaign then it goes greatly into the feel you want for the game. A "points" only game always to me feels far more cinematic. Money won't mean as much to them because, well they can't do anything really with it.

 

However, if you are wanting a more gritty feel then money is the way to go. I recommend Surbrook's Kazei 5 which can be got for $10 as a PDF in the store. It has a lot of cyberware made up and is a really great book.

 

With money the players can just pick and choose what they want and you, as the GM, can control what they get by availablity.

 

What are you doing with other equipment? Guns and armor etc. I consider cyberware just another form of Guns and armoer. How they go is how cyberware shoud go.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

What are you doing with other equipment? Guns and armor etc. I consider cyberware just another form of Guns and armoer. How they go is how cyberware shoud go.

 

This is the key issue right here. Do you consider Cyberware to be just another piece of equipment... or is it something that becomes an inherent ability that is part of the character.

 

Think of it this way... Magic in a fantasy campaign. The ability to cast spells almost always costs points... but you COULD have spells be wands and scrolls and stuff, pre-made and on lists, that characters buy with gold, and as you use them, they go away... like arrows or quarrels. This is not common in most Fantasy Hero games that I know about... but it could work.

 

I ran Cyber Hero back in the day quite a bit. Cyber-ware cost BOTH points and money. You had to have money to justify your character being able to get it... it had to be available... and you generally picked it off a pre-made list of available cyber-ware. Then you spent EXP or Char Points to make it part of the character... and it became a built in part of the character with certain limitations that reflected the level of cyber-ware quality. Once paid for, the cyber-ware was considered part of the character and it wasn't destroyed or taken away without plot considerations... and becaue they paid points, that justified relatively easy replacement.

 

Basically I straddled the line and required both, and it worked. Heavily cybered characters were more combat powerful than not... but not by much. How I managed that was to make the Limitations that signified cyberware relatively minor. -1/4 to -1/2 TOTAL at most... so you weren't having characters getting +10 Dex for 1 point or anything. Also, I enforced NCM... so if your cyber-ware put you over the max, you paid double cost for the stat before limitations.

 

Finally... we had decent role players so when "I'm a brain in a can Man" wanted to get information that was difficult because nobody likes talking to a combat chassis that giggles. Thus "Still Got Most Of My Parts Girl" was instrumental in actually working within societal norms. If your world is a bleak, kill-or-be-killed every moment of every day... then PCs will likely cyber up to the gills because the world demands it. If this is an actual functionig society then people who have turned their bodies into living weapons are going to have serious issues to deal with.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I did it the same way as RDU Neil. Points and cash.

 

I would let a character get the surgery if he had enough of either, but then he had to pay up the other as soon as he was able. And if he didn't have the cash at the time he got the 'ware, he usually got it with some strings attached (ie plot hook for an adventure).

 

But, as mentioned, if it's for a con game, this doesn't really matter. My suggestion would be to make characters buy their beginning cyberware with points, but if the length of the game allows buying more, just do it with money.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I'm also backing RDU Neil on the points/cash combo... here's how I specifically deal with Cyber in CP games..

 

You need the cash to justify the point expenditure. Then you don't get to just put anything down.. you've got a specific list of things to buy depending on where you got it (Ripper Docs have less quality stuff than Corp Hospitals) and how much you really paid for it (short changing the guy grafting the wired reflexes to your spine is bad... really bad).

 

All my Cyber is predesigned Powers. This allows me to control the level everything is at without having to worry and gives a sort of mass produced unified feel to the game. Cyberdine Systems doesn't make 900 custom legs, they cheaply make 9 million stock legs (and charge you an arm). Mods on them are really expensive too.... and don't always work.

 

But all my CP games focus way more on the story and situation than the Cyber which is all but non-existant in most of my games.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I guess others have already said as much in this thread, but If it was going to run this I would do the following:

 

Pre-design all available cyberware. (But be open to player requests and suggestions.)

 

Make characters pay points for it at character creation. There has to be some limitation of what kind of cyber they are packing. Other games tradtionally have done with by setting a dollar cost per item and limiting starting funds. It doesn't cost that much for Hero characters to be filthy rich. If you blow 15 points on wealth you end up with 150 (or 1500) pts in cybergear in your body. This would be unbalancing.

 

Further modification during play would require both cash/resources and points. The points keep things balanced, and the cash/resources keep things making sene "in game". Your street urchin should not show up with ripper claws just because he saved up some xp. He needs the money to buy them off the black market, or needs to sign on with some kind of corporation/military/crime boss, etc. that can set him up.

 

I would have non-implanted gear be purchased with cash, not point. This kind of equipment tends to come and go in these types of games. Things like dermal armor and superhuman speed have a lasting impact on the abilities of the character, one that can not be quickly or easily matched by another. Its much easier to pick up some guns and a armored jacket than to have your eyes replaced with an artifical camera system that includes poison dart projectors.

 

Just my .02

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I have an idea about Cyberpsychosis (which should limit the amount of Cyberware on a given 'Punk). All Cybernetics would have a Major Side Effect that inflicts a Major Transformation against EGO (Standard Effect). Each 10 AP in a given Cybernetic Implant would bring with it 1DC worth of Transoformation: Unafflicted Person to Person with Enraged (Berserk) go 14- recover 8- when provoked (Very Common). The Cyberpsychosis would recover with Psychotheraputic treatments (benefiting from the care of a Psychiatrist would allow the Cyberpsycho to Recover EGO as if it were BODY).

 

Thus, your typical set of Finger Razors (1/2d6 HKA, 10 AP) would carry with it 2 Points of Transform vs the Punk's EGO. Add on +5 DEX Reflex Boost (15 AP) and the Punk is facing 5 poinst of Transform vs Ego. (2 points for the Razors + 3 Points for the Reflex Boost).

 

And to answer many of your queries, I'll have a list of Cyberware for purchase, rather than allowing Players to build their own. Though player characters can always try their hand at engineering their own Cyberware, given the appropriate skill, facilities, and buddies... err, "test subjects".

 

Gads, I hope I'm making sense...

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Oh, and I agree with the idea of using CP over money for convention pregen characters. I hadn't thought of that yet.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I perfectly agree with RDU Neil on this. Money and Points, so the players have to spend points to make it fair, and money to keep it gritty.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I have an idea about Cyberpsychosis (which should limit the amount of Cyberware on a given 'Punk). All Cybernetics would have a Major Side Effect that inflicts a Major Transformation against EGO (Standard Effect). Each 10 AP in a given Cybernetic Implant would bring with it 1DC worth of Transoformation: Unafflicted Person to Person with Enraged (Berserk) go 14- recover 8- when provoked (Very Common). The Cyberpsychosis would recover with Psychotheraputic treatments (benefiting from the care of a Psychiatrist would allow the Cyberpsycho to Recover EGO as if it were BODY).

 

Thus, your typical set of Finger Razors (1/2d6 HKA, 10 AP) would carry with it 2 Points of Transform vs the Punk's EGO. Add on +5 DEX Reflex Boost (15 AP) and the Punk is facing 5 poinst of Transform vs Ego. (2 points for the Razors + 3 Points for the Reflex Boost).

 

And to answer many of your queries, I'll have a list of Cyberware for purchase, rather than allowing Players to build their own. Though player characters can always try their hand at engineering their own Cyberware, given the appropriate skill, facilities, and buddies... err, "test subjects".

 

Gads, I hope I'm making sense...

 

When I've done a CyberHero game, I've set Active Point thresholds for CyberPsychosis. Basically, I design a few categories of CyberPsychosis as a Psych Limit and decide where on the scale I want to put them. When the number of Active Points reach a certain value, the character gets the appropriate Disad. If this is done during character creation, the value of the Disad counts toward his Disad Limit (he gets the points for it). If it's done during game play, it acts as a 0 point Disad (which works to disgourage characters from cybering up right away, if at all).

 

If I ever do it again, I'll probably just have a list of appropriate Disads for CyberPsychosis and require a certain value of them per a certain value of Active Points in cyberware, but not restrictions on which one has to be taken first. That way, not all CyberPsychos are alike, and some you might not even know are on the brink. Some might even by non-violent (no Berserk, but lots of Psych Limits).

 

A few suggestions for CyberPsychosis Disads:

 

Distinctive Features: Metalhead (not concealable, always noticed/major reaction, uncommonly used senses/technoloty): 15 points.

Susceptability to EMP (common) 3d6 instant: 20 points.

Psychological Limitation: Cold and Emotionless (uncommon, strong): 10 points

Psychological Limitation: Feels Detached from Humanity (common, strong): 15 points.

Psychological Limitation: Feels Superior to Humanity/Non-Cybered Humans (common, strong): 15 points.

Enraged when the subject of cyberware is bought up: go 8-, recover 11- (very common): 20 points.

Berserk in the presence of non/lightly-cybered humans: go 14-, recover 8- (very common): 45 points.

 

I'd probably go with a value of about 1/4 to 1/3 of the Active Points in these Disads. Of course, a character could have more than this...

[Fox1]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Right now, I'm leaning towards Equipment because it's more of a Cyberpunk feel. If you got the Cash, you can affoard to buy yourself all the reflexes, skills, and muscles you want.

 

What do my fellow Guru's think (and what is the opinion of our sagacious Line Developer?)

 

I'd base my decision upon what I wanted out the campaign.

 

If the setting supports a money = power concept, then by all means base the cost of cyberware completely upon cash. You'll likely have ditch the Money perk and replace it with some other way of handling income, but after that you'll have what you need.

 

If you're interested in game balance where a character doesn't have to cyber up in order to be powerful, you're likely better off charging both money and points as some people here have suggested. The only thing to worry about is providing a use for the money the non-cyber people earn. That could be an issue. I know for example that I didn't need money, I'd be giving it to our cyber monster so he could afford the best gear and be all the more useful for protecting my un-chromed behind.

 

 

I took a more... extreme path with my own campaign. Since it was based upon the Shadowrun setting it required both wired and unwired characters- and of course I wanted money to be highly important as it should be in such a setting. So gear and cyberware were to be totally money based.

 

I ended up providing a matrix of starting points/money that not only defined how many points and how much cyberware you could have- it also determined how quickly you gained experience points and what your total point cap was.

 

So I player could go all natural with magic talents (it is a shadowrun setting) and start with 125 points and no money to speak of- and no ability to add cyberware later. He'd also gain experience quickly and has a high total cap.

 

- or start with 50 points, tons of money for cyberware and the ability to upgrade and max out that cyberware later. Experience comes slow, and he has a low cap.

 

 

That handled balance not only at the start of the campaign, but throughout. Seems to be working great so far (it's been going on for a couple years now).

[pinecone]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

You might want to look at Dark champs and resource points and let Cyberware use up resources...if all it takes to be tough is cash then every corperate stooge is mas macho and that is counter to the feel (at least for me) Money is just One way to get resources contacts and scavenging work too......

[gojira]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Requiring money to buy cyberware elimiates some interesting characters. Where is the poor strugling street samari, who must consider if he should sell his last real organ to make ends meet, when the only rich can buy cyberware?

 

I say points only for cyberware. My opinion of course, but I wanted to put the above bug in your ear.

 

Consider however varying the description of the cyberware according to a players wealth level. The rich should have trendy cyberware. Cybered eyes should look like the latest sunglasses, enhanced strength should look like buff fashion models, etc.

 

Whereas the street samari above should have last year's model. Obvious chrome work should make it hard for him to get into high places. His rough enhancements should doom him to a life of menial jobs with no security.

 

Of course this is all personal opinion too, but I think it matches the genre of most cyperpunk fiction. Your world may be different.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

There's an Idea. All Cybernetics also come with a Dependance - Continual upgrades to simulate the need to keep up with SOTA.

[Fox1]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Requiring money to buy cyberware elimiates some interesting characters. Where is the poor strugling street samari' date=' who must consider if he should sell his last real organ to make ends meet, when the only rich can buy cyberware? .[/quote']

 

I fail to see how requiring money removes those character concepts. Indeed, it would seem to be the idea enforce it unless for some reason the GM allows characters whatever amount of money they want.

 

All in all, it's easier for the GM to control money flow than it is XP flow (after ditching certain perks).

[gojira]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I fail to see how requiring money removes those character concepts.

 

Because requiring money to buy lots of cyberware means that any character who is very cybered would have to be very wealthy too.

 

Indeed, it would seem to be the idea enforce it unless for some reason the GM allows characters whatever amount of money they want.

 

In a point system like HERO, characters can buy any level of wealth they want.

 

All in all, it's easier for the GM to control money flow than it is XP flow (after ditching certain perks).

 

If you are going to ditch certain perks, can't you just ditch certain cyber enhancements too? I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here, I'm not really following your post.

[Constantine]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I definitely think money is the way to go here. The cyberpunk genre is supposed to be one where any joe can go and lay down the money to get the upgrades, if he is willing to sacrifice his humanity to do it. If you try to make it require points, how do you tell a character that he can't get the upgrade if he has the money for it? This has to be a money thing. Sure, cyber characters are better fighters than non-cybered ones, but non-cybered characters tend to handle human interaction much better. Everyone should have their moments to shine. The resource points idea from Dark champions isn't bad. I don't have that supplement, but I read lots about it, and like the idea.

[Fox1]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Because requiring money to buy lots of cyberware means that any character who is very cybered would have to be very wealthy too.

 

That would seem to be completely dependent upon the economics of the campaign setting.

 

Have you played any other cyberpunk games? It's rather typical in those for money to come quickly, and to be spent just as quickly. Such settings do work. Shadowrun doesn't make you pay points for cyberware (assuming you have 'room' to implant it), and that game is all about making next month's rent.

 

I've played a Shadowrun campaign this way for a couple years now using HERO System rules, oddly enough there is no one who is very wealthy, indeed far from it. There are however some people with rather nice cyberware.

 

 

 

In a point system like HERO, characters can buy any level of wealth they want.

 

In HERO specifically it's also suggested that wealth perks be done away with if gaining money is to be a major campaign element.

 

 

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here, I'm not really following your post.

 

That may be the case.

 

I think you're looking at a game where money is a character trait. You buy the perk and spend your character points. If you're not rich, you are only allowed to buy second hand or low grade cyberware depending. Actual money flow during the campaign itself isn't important- it's only a characteristic point.

 

This approach comes with a problem as in general HERO does not assume that the wealth perk determines what abilities a character can or cannot buy.

 

In addition you're putting a surcharge on the cost of cyberware (i.e. the buying of the perk). Depending upon the exact details (how much cyberware, with what limits, etc) this may or may not be important,

 

 

 

I'm speaking of a different approach. Here money is road to cyber ware, it's earned and spent in game- it cannot be brought with character points. Earn enough and you can buy bleeding edge gear, don't earn enough and you buy used ware with serious side-effects or no ware at all.

 

This approach has the advantage of making the fight to crawl out of the dregs real and in the character's face. It's a very street level type of play. Assuming the players equally split incoming money, it's also balanced if the ware cost is set correctly.

 

It does comes with the disadvantage that everyone is going to cyber up as best they can if there isn't anything preventing it. This may of course be the whole idea.

 

 

Edit:

 

I should also note that like most things, a choice between these two options depend upon the campaign.

 

If one is planning a long term game with many adventures over a significant span of time where living and improving is a major element of the game- I'd go for the money approach I suggest.

 

If one is planning a short series of cyberpunk adventures that is about style and story- I'd go with a pure point method as money isn't important except as style element.

 

One thing I wouldn't do is based what type and style of cyberware a character can buy on the wealth perk- no mattter the game. I like the idea of a cyber'd to the max agent for a corp turning rogue and hitting the street with no wealth at all. Something a perk=cyber method would deny.

[Constantine]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

I'm speaking of a different approach. Here money is road to cyber ware, it's earned and spent in game- it cannot be brought with character points. Earn enough and you can buy bleeding edge gear, don't earn enough and you buy used ware with serious side-effects or no ware at all.

 

This approach has the advantage of making the fight to crawl out of the dregs real and in the character's face. It's a very street level type of play. Assuming the players equally split incoming money, it's also balanced if the ware cost is set correctly.

 

It does comes with the disadvantage that everyone is going to cyber up as best they can if there isn't anything preventing it. This may of course be the whole idea.

 

Repped!!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Got the Metal in the Meat

 

Requiring money to buy cyberware elimiates some interesting characters. Where is the poor strugling street samari' date=' who must consider if he should sell his last real organ to make ends meet, when the only rich can buy cyberware?[/quote']

 

In most cyberpunk games/stories, the main characters are not rich. It's one of the conventions of the system. The rich call the shots, and the main characters try to fool or trick them, take advantage of them and do what they can to survive. Even then, rich characters almost never get heavily cybered. Why would they? If you have the money to afford a new body decked out with armor and weapons, you could easily just hire three or for meat sacks to take the 'ware for you and act as body guards, while you stay human. The main characters are occasionally those meat sacks and didn't use their own money for their 'ware, but are now in debt/indentured servitude to their employer for providing it for them.