Character growth potential and speed questions

[kuoshu]

As a long time gamer, D&D, AD&D, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, Dragonquest, GURPS, Rolemaster, Vampire, Mage, Paladium, Sword Bearer, Warhammer FRP... and on and on, since the 70's, I finally think I know what it is I want from a game system.

 

I have been looking into trying out the Hero system; I've picked up the sidekick and have had a chance to BEGIN reading it. I plan on reading further on a flight coming up, but wanted to ask some basic questions on feel.

 

I run a game for a group of people whose time is very limited; everyone wants to feel that we are progressing, not only in story arcs, but also character development. I just don't have a good feeling for how character development feels with this system.

 

I am sure that I can control how quickly or slowly a character progresses through how I award points but how difficult is the balancing act between too much and too little?

 

I also want long range character development at a decent pace. Can I give XP at a rate that feels like the characters are truly growing, without the characters hitting a wall?

 

Having dabbled with running (as I've read it referred to here) the ugly step-sister, GURPS, the rules I've read so far just make solid sense. The dice spread is what I am a little worried about.

 

It is very easy with the d20 system to adjust the target numbers up with penalties or bonuses, thus keeping the players challenged, both combat-wise (your opponent has superior armor and spells AC 35) and skill-wise (the ancient who made this lock made it extremely complex and included magic, to pick it your d20+skill+bonuses must be at least 40). Is the same ability here based on the rules as they are written (i.e.: without me having to house-rule everything)?

 

From what I've read so far, I know that I just don't have the full picture. It may be that I just haven't read far enough, but I thought I would ask to see how others handle these obstacles, if they are even obstacles in the first place.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Welcome, kuoshu! I hope you find the HERO System to your liking. You've definitely come to the right place for your questions; lots of folks here who are more than willing to help out newbies, including the Line Developer, Steve Long, who regularly answers rules questions (on the "5th Edition Rules Questions" forum).

 

One general answer I can give to your questions is that any character in HERO can continue to advance pretty much indefinitely without fear of "hitting the wall." Most elements of HERO are open-ended: Characteristics, Skills, Skill Levels, offensive and defensive Powers can continue to be increased as long as the player continues to add Character Points to his or her character. So it's always possible to balance just about any level of, for example, offensive capacity with defensive capability. And since there are so many diverse areas, both in combat and noncombat, for HERO characters to grow in, you can maintain diversity among characters.

 

Now regarding Skills, you may at first think that having a roll for success on 3d6 means that Skill Rolls top out at 18, but in practice it's much more challenging. There's a range of modifiers for Skills which can be directly assessed as penalties to the Skill Roll. Moreover, HERO has a mechanic called Skill Versus Skill; the degree by which one person exceeds his target number in using his Skill to create or prepare something (setting a bomb, encrypting a computer, etc.) becomes a penalty to the roll for someone trying to undo his efforts.

 

I'm sure you'll have more detailed questions once you've had more time to investigate HERO. Feel free to come on back.

[sbarron]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

It is very easy with the d20 system to adjust the target numbers up with penalties or bonuses' date=' thus keeping the players challenged, both combat-wise (your opponent has superior armor and spells AC 35) and skill-wise (the ancient who made this lock made it extremely complex and included magic, to pick it your d20+skill+bonuses must be at least 40). Is the same ability here based on the rules as they are written (i.e.: without me having to house-rule everything)?[/quote']If I understand your question, then the answer is yes, you can do the same thing in HERO. I'm not sure that I've ever seen HERO use the target number method before, though.

 

If a lock is hard to pick, then there will be a negative modifier to the skill roll reflecting the locks complexity. So, "the ancient who made this lock made it extremely complex and included magic, to pick it you must make your lockpicking skill roll with a -10 modifier."

 

We could figure out what a PC needs to have to pick the lock, but it's not really going to be a target number. The base lockpick starts with 11- to succeed. This means that he would need a 3 to succeed in picking the lock in HERO (11 - 10 = 1 or less to succeed, impossible on 3d6, though rolling a 3 is generally an automatic success). So, to have a realistic chance, the PC would probably need to have a 20- Lockpicking skill roll, so that he would have an 10- roll after the modifier (20 - 10 = 10 or less to succeed).

 

Does this help?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Growth doesn't have to be in combat abilities (like the skills being mentioned above). You can have a game where characters have the right damage classes and defenses, but are unknown, don't have a base, no contacts (other than friends from their pre-super days?), and aren't very skilled. Skill growth includes non-combat stuff and combat skills as they learn to fight.

 

Also, you will likely find they attempt to use their powers in ways that their character sheets don't allow. An ice-blaster might want to make an ice ramp to divert a following car. Use the Power skill, but mark it down as something he might spend points on, if he wants to do it again & again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

The Hero System is probably one of the more open ended game systems out there.. it's infinitely expandable with no real loss of playability.

 

On the specific topic of skills instead of raising the target number like you would under D20 you simlpy assign a larger penalty to the roll in Hero (as the others pointed out) making it more difficult to reach the desired target.

 

One way to look at it is if a Player says "I made my roll by 8" meaning they rolled 8 less than their skill level listed on the sheet and you've assigned a penalty of -10 to the roll what they've really done is missed it by 2 (roll 2 higher than the adjusted skill level). If that makes sense?

 

As for advancement rates .. that really is completely under your control. No encounter has a set XP level or anything so concrete. Our group has used two methods, both successfully:

 

Standard XP Method, every sessions gets you 1 XP, scenarios will get you more based on how well you Roleplayed and how successful you were (goals accomplished, goals missed, disasters triggered...) and the PCs can spend the XP as they see fit with GM aprpoval.

 

Story Method, you don't get XP. In fact your character growth is based entirely on what you state your character is learning and doing in game. If you are working with your ice powers and are expanding them you start to add Ice Powers onto your sheet with little regard for point cost. This method is based entirely on the story at hand and can lead to some oddly disparate point totals between characters but we've found they're all around the same level of effectiveness overall.

 

So essentially, the XP/Character growth rate is entirely dependent on you and your players. Same as story growth. There's nothing, like in D20, where you are expected to grow a certain number of levels (or points in Hero's case) over a given number of game sessions.

 

Post any and all questions you have to the boards - we're all friendly here. Well, at least on the topic of the Hero System.

[gojira]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Welcome Valkyrie, er... kuoshu!

 

One thing to be aware of is that your players under hero can advance at different rates. While it can take 30 to 50 points for a hero to get a new power, it can take as little as 3 to 5 points to get +1 to any combat skill. That's like going up a level, and can give you huge headaches.

 

For example, if the group tank (brick, big strong guy who bounces attacks) is saving for some large cost new power, and your martial artist is gleefully buying more skill levels every three game sessions, it can be hard to balance things out as the brick isn't going to be able to hit anything that will challenge the martial.

 

Don't give out XP to quickly or things will get out of control. Give about half of what your first inclination is. Like per adventure (not play session), give 1 XP for success, 1 XP for good role playing, and 1 XP for figuring something out, making the group laugh, etc., three XP maximum per person. Watch what players spend it on, and start thinking about how you will deal with it before it catches you by surprise or ruins a play session.

 

One thing you can do is have super villian teams. Make sure there is somone on each villian team that each player can handle, then make sure that they get to fight that person eventually. Villian martial artists should attack the group MA, the big slow villian brick should tangle with the group brick, etc. This will at least ensure that they don't feel worthless or overpowered.

 

Another thing to do is after being stingy with the XP for a while, start talking to your players about a large XP reward for all their hard work. Encourage them to spend it on something expensive, like a new power that would take a long time to save up for, or more skill levels if that's what they've been lacking. This can make things very exciting for the players, since they will have some cool new thing to play with, and it can provide a way for you to quickly balance out any problems that have been creeping up on you.

[Mike W]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Well, the book has a good section on this. Main things: try to keep everything to a range of 4(e.g. base CVs range 7-10, main attacks 11-14DC, and so on).

 

When handing out XP try to make them spend it on things other than improving combat powers and skill levels. They can do that a bit too, but try to get them to spend more points on other things. There are lots of useful "little" defenses like Flash Def. Buy more presence. Perks are a lot more useful than they look. Money, contacts and bases can chew up a lot of points and still seem worth it. Usually, players start off emphasizing powers and skimp on everything else. Then they latch onto buying lots of skills. Perks come last. As you get more into the system, you start seeing what those skills and perks can do. It's also a good way to spend points that don't turn the character into a combat monster. And hey, doesn't every hero want Spiderman's phone number? Or their own corporation? Or the ability to pick up women in seven languages? There's a lot of cool things you can do with skills and perks.

 

Also, a quick note on 3D6 rolls. At 14-, you are about 90% to make the roll. So anything over that is simply buying against penalties.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Welcome to the community. I hope you like Hero.

 

Another thing to consider in awarding experience is the type and level of campaign you are playing. Three xp to a 50 pont heroic is a huge deal, its a new skill at resonable competence, or a meaningful increase in a stat. For a 500 point super its not quite so exciting. If it takes three play session for Captian Firepower just to get one more d6 of energy blast he might not feel like he is improving much. The same amount of experience for a lower powered heroic campaign could mean that the charcter has learned to fly jet aircraft at a professional level of skill, which would probably seem like a huge deal to them.

 

Just be sure to fit xp awards to your campaign style.

 

And as Gojira mentioned, players who load up on skill levels can advance their combat values rather quickly. Hero can be almost to open ened at times. Its usually a good idea to set firm guidelines for combat values, max damage and defense, and similar things, and raise these slowly over time. If your martial artist buys 10 skill levels with his first 30 xp his hand to hand combat abilites can get a little out of wack with other characters in the campaign.

 

T.H.

[atlascott]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Welcome to HERO.

 

A huge difference is that there are no 'levels' or class restrictions that you might find in other game systems.

 

Characters can spend XP as it is awarded, or they can save their XP to effect a quantum leap in character power. I had a PC do this in a Champions game. He saved ALOT of XP, and basically re-wrote his character.

 

I can understand 'hitting the wall' with character advancement. Im running a D&D game where the PC's are of high enough level that I have to throw ridiculous things at them to even challenge them at all--doesnt make sense that in 5 years game time, these guys would esssentially becomes lords of the universe.

 

In the HERO system, player BUILD abilities and skills as they see fit, gradually. In 30 game sessions of D&D, your PC's could basically become 10x more powerful than where they started. IN HERO, if they double their power in 30 game sessions, that's about right/. The slow evolution i what I like about the game--it is MUCH easier to focus on roleplaying, and it is much easier to actually plan some interesting scenarios which do not center around your trying to find a combat they wont laught at.

 

Im happy you found HERO. Im betting you'll love it!

[Herolover]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

First, welcome to the crowd. Now to you questions.

 

HERO, IMO, is a good game to show character advancement. If you, for example, run two adventures and give out 2 XP each time that means your players have in effect earned a +1 to two different skills. In a heroic level game a spell can normally be easily purchased with 4 points. So yes, I feel that you can model very easy characters going up. Of course you can always increase the points given or decrease the points given as XP to suit your own purposes.

 

As far as balance goes it is like any other game. If you just give and give yes, the players are gonna get more powerful. The great thing about that is you get to make them go up against more powerful stuff. Look at D20. A 15th level thief can pick a lot of locks. Well, a character in HERO with a lockpicking of 22 or less can pick a lot of locks. However, when the 15th level thief comes into contact with the nasty magical lock he has problem. Same thing in HERO.

 

The great thing about HERO though is you can always limit the thief to only buying his lockpicking skill up to an 18 or less. That means you don’t have to come up with the magical lock to give him trouble.

 

HERO is just as good, and just as bad in a lot of ways, as other games. The thing HERO allows is it allows you to set the pace and style of your game.

[kuoshu]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Thanks all! That is exactly the type of answer I was looking for. Which by the way is very refreshing. After reading the first reply my reaction was "HOLY *EXPLATIVE*!", then once I had read them all, I had the same reaction once again.

 

I want to stress my appreciation of the well thought out and intelligent replies. Especially since they all actually were actual replies to my QUESTION. It's so strange coming from the WOTC boards to... intelligent civil and community friendly posts. Even during my scanning all I've seen has been at worst constructive criticism.

 

I will say right now, that even had the answers given not been the ones I hoped for, the tone and intellectual level of the answers would have kept me looking. As it is, I am greatly reassured.

 

Thanks again!

Kuoshu

[Dust Raven]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

Welcome to Hero, Kuoshu!

 

I think everybody above have pretty much covered everything. One thing I'd like to add though concerns "the wall." Any wall you might run up against would be GM created. As said before, the game is limitless in that you can just keep adding more and more points to what you have. Some GMs don't like the idea of a player spending all of his XP on one Skill or Power endlessly to the point where he overshadows the campaign with it. There's really no correct method to regulate this, except to make sure you have players that won't do that. As the campaign progresses, the characters will grow, but should still be balanced characters. Another aspect of the wall is campaign limits. If the campaign uses Active Point limits or something similar, the characters will run into a wall when they reach those limits. One way around this is to not have limits at all, though a more balanced method is to periodically raise the limits (preferably before the majority of the characters reach them).

 

I want to stress my appreciation of the well thought out and intelligent replies. Especially since they all actually were actual replies to my QUESTION. It's so strange coming from the WOTC boards to... intelligent civil and community friendly posts. Even during my scanning all I've seen has been at worst constructive criticism.

 

Lots have said this about these boards and I agree. It's why I don't frequent the message boards of other games anymore. Some would say we're being snobbish or elitist... but those people are simply beneath us . (j/k)

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questionsI think you'll find that progression in HERO is more gradual, more of a continuum than what you've seen in level-based games such as D&D. It's also far more tunable - the character can slowly grow outward as well as upward.IMO, it's much better at modeling how actual people improve. You don't work for 5 years at your job and then suddenly, WHAM! You're a lot better at everything you do. No, your skills grow gradually - and HERO's system models that way better than any other system I've ever seen.

[Fox1]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

I'd like to add a slightly different viewpoint that may not find much favor here...

 

Character advancement in HERO is a pain.

 

Keeping the character in tune with his stats while at the same time making sure he still belongs in the world he was created for while not stepping on other character's niches isn't easy.

 

Or rather, it can be very difficult depending upon the length of the campaign.

 

Depending upon the exact game, I've dealt with this in a number of ways. My three most common:

 

 

1. Build the character to concept and don't worry about how many points are used in doing so. As long as a character has a useful niche in the team/game, it really doesn't matter if he's a hundreds of points cheaper than another character.

 

Don't give out XP all.

 

This works great for modeling 'fixed' world sources- like most comics and TV shows (which reset back to the start at the end of each storyline).

 

Problem: some players need XP to give them a reason to play. Option may be best when character are built by GM to player's order (role style more than specifics).

 

I actually have the most fun with this option.

 

 

2. Create your starting character. Create your 'final' finished character at the peak of the campaign's power. Make sure both fit in your world and in your group (character niche in their team is still all important). Points may or may not be equal- some concepts just cost more or less.

 

Give out XP. Require that the player spend them in such a way that he moves toward the 'finished character'.

 

This works nicely for growth campaigns. Say the farm lad who's going to become a great hero.

 

Problem: events in the game may result in logical changes in the 'final character' version. You may have to redo it in cases.

 

 

3. As GM keep a extremely close eye on everyone's character and how they spend experience. Make sure to maintain niche and place in the world. Be ready to say NO a lot.

 

Problem: All depends upon your players. Some can deal with such heavy GM influence, some can't.

 

 

 

 

As to the idea of too much or too little XP being given out...

 

Option 1 doesn't have this issue.

 

Option 2, easy to adjust. As you know the cost difference between starting and final versions you can determine the number of adventures needed to reach the end and give out XP to suit.

 

Option 3, things could get out hand as you're depending upon your judgement. If it's not solid, you could end up giving too much or too little.

[CourtFool]

...but D&D suxx0rs

 

Progression

The players will see their characters progress faster than D&D and about the same as G.U.R.P.S. However, their progress will not be giant leaps like D&D. Whenever XP are awarded they may raise a skill or buy a new one. They can wait and save up to buy a new power which will feel much the same as D&D.

 

G.U.R.P.S.

I do not understand what you mean by 'dice spread'. The only thing that comes to mind is at first glance G.U.R.P.S. weapons seem more deadly than Hero. That would be true if you ignore all the optional rules. When you include Hit Locations, Impairing and Disabling, Stunning and Bleeding a 1d6+1 Hand Killing Attack becomes nothing to scoff at.

 

Hero is kinda like if Steve Jackson cracked G.U.R.P.S. open and showed you the formulas he used to decide what Advantages and Powers should cost. Hero also makes it much easier to be a generalist.

 

Penalties and Bonuses

Hero makes it much easier to determine penalties and bonuses. A Skill Modifier chart is provided (although I am not sure if it is included in Sidekick). More importantly, like G.U.R.P.S., a real world equivalent is provided to give you an idea of what the numbers mean and what level an 'expert' should be.

 

If matching up against D&D's method makes it easier:

DC 5 = +3 even someone untrained is likely to succeed

DC 10 = +2 someone with natural talent or experience has better than 50%

DC 15 = +0 natural talent or experience has about 50%

DC 20 = -1 talent and experience required for even 50%

DC 25 = -2 talent and quite a bit of experience are required for any real chance

DC 30 = -3 master level required for any regular success

Feel free to modify up or down as your experience dictates.

 

I am not a big advocate of D&D nor any of its spawn, but I will say that balancing combat encounters is easier in D&D than in Hero. However, since you are experienced with G.U.R.P.S. I doubt you will any more difficulty in Hero than you would in the 'ugly step-sister'.

 

Misc

I believe a lot of criticisms that are leveled at Hero are due basically to the steep, front-end learning curve. Once you get past that, I believe it is easier, faster and more consistant than D&D, G.U.R.P.S. or any other system I have played.

[atlascott]

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions

 

My experience with GURPS is, its fine if youve never played HERO. But, once you've played HERO, it is hard to go back to GURPS. GURPS is almost HERO LITE, except with Sidekick out, it really isnt. I find to be a les sensical, through still rules-heavily, system.

 

"...but I will say that balancing combat encounters is easier in D&D than in Hero"

 

I heartily disagree with that. D&D challenge ratings mean nothing, and once characters are of about 10th level, forget it, witht the Feats, spells, multiple attacks. You have to throw ridiculous things at them, and the game becomes all about whther wat you have planned can in any way challenge the PC's.