At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

[Trebuchet]

Zornwil's "Scalability Notion" thread got me to thinking, and I thought this might be worthy of discussion in its own right.

 

At what point does a character concept become unrecognizable due to XP? Is there a point at which the character is no longer able to adhere to his original concept as he progresses in XP. Are certain genres and/or character archtypes more or less susceptible to this problem? Is it a problem at all? In D&D's fantasy setting characters seem able to progress in some classes almost infinitely, and a 20th level fighter is probably more than a match for 20 1st Level fighters. Would be possible in a superhero game? Or would any super simply have evolved so much with say double their original points that they can no longer be truly said to be the same character? The comics seem mixed. Batman and Iron Man are both much more powerful than when they started, yet both are still recognizable as who they started as. But the X-Men's Marvel Girl progressing to become Phoenix altered the character so fundamentally it literally became a different character. (I'd have to call that change more of a radiation accident than growth from experience, yet the effect was quite similar.)

 

In our campaign, Mentor's PC mentalist Prodigy or Blackjack's brick Silhouette would scale up pretty well, but my MA Zl'f is already approaching a point where I can see problems developing in the not-too-distant future. I defuse the problem somewhat by buying her "fluff" skills, but I just can't see her adding 5 CON, 5 PD, or 5d6 more to her attacks. She's supposed to be fragile; it's an important part of her concept. At what point will Zl'f cease to be Zl'f as I originally envisioned her and want to play her? My gut tells me that's going to be around 450-460 points; and as she's currently at 404 points 450 isn't all that far off even if I start buying down Disads and Limitations. Two or three years at most and I'll either have to retire her or find another direction to take her.

 

Has anyone ever run a single character so long that they were unhappy with the "damage" to the core concept was being inflicted by XP? (25 years ago when I played AD&D I had a Martial Monk who reached 13th Level. But I think he was a lot more fun to play when he was 8th - 10th Level; and I eventually retired him to run a low level paladin.)

 

If you're thinking this post is a bit incoherent, it is. I'm trying to deal with vague feelings of unease rather than a concrete problem.

[Gary]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

The short answer is when the character doesn't 'play' the same anymore. You'll recognize that you can't do certain things anymore or hang out with your teammates.

 

Sometimes this isn't even your own character changing. Sometimes it's because everyone else around you is growing in power while you're static in which case the challenges become tougher whereas your power level isn't any higher than before.

[Mike W]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

I don't think that XP makes a character unrecognizable if the player and GM are careful about where the XP is spent. If a character develops a new power and relies on it a lot, then that might happen. But it also might be appropriate for some characters to do that(mages for instance).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

It can happen over long-term play. I think a big part of the solution is to have character concepts with room for growth, and some variety. Sometimes you'll have ideas up front for how you'll want to grow, sometimes not.

 

I generally can spend TONS of points on a character without making them dramatically more effective. I try to have an idea of how I'd like to see the character progress over time before I even start play.

 

Some examples:

*Jack O'Lantern - has gained a few skills, a few extra weapon types. Down the road he'll get wealthier, invent a "goblin serum" to boost up his stats a bit to keep him more in line with the increasing levels of supervillains. Maybe even a rocket bat-glider.

*Ghost - desolid guy. Planned for him to improve his martial arts, hopefully learn some "spy" stuff like Security Systems, etc. Improve his desolid powers beyond current levels, including being able to shut off someone else's desolid.

*Omega - basic brick. Skills, levels, some dex/SPD improvement over time. Recently worked with NPC mentalist to improve mental defenses, buying down his vulnerability to mental attacks. Future XP will probably go towards reducing end on str, maybe some minor gadgets. Toying with a "radiation accident", but even so it won't radically change the character.

*Calamity Jane - danger sense and luck, planned on improving her "calamity" powers to Scarlet Witch type effects.

 

As I said above, I think variety is a good thing. Throwing in a few minor abilities at the start will give you tons of room to grow, without affecting the core of the character. Take Spider-Man's spider-sense, for example. On a character sheet, it probably would have started out as simple danger sense. Later on it's been bought up and used as a justification for other things, like being able to locate bad guys just by swinging around town and following the tingles, tracking based on spider-tracers, etc. Batman's a detective and a martial artist and a gadgeteer - lots of possibilities. If your concept is solely "I'm the world's greatest acrobat", you may need to stretch a bit to find more room, but it can be done.

 

The main problem is that the characters don't exist in a vacuum (well, it would be a boring game if they did). For better or worse, they are being compared to the other characters and to the threats they face. If characters A&B work on fleshing out their powers, while characters C&D just jack up damage and defense levels, A&B can start to seem weaker. If the scenarios reward C&D's growth more (bigger & tougher villains, more grand threats, more opponents, etc) it reinforces it. If the other players are going to be ramping up their thunder gods, battlesuits, and living ionic powerhouses to take on armies, and the GM throws you at Thanos every other week, playing Black Widow might not be the best plan. On the other hand, if the GM presents lots of detective work and solutions best handled by creative uses of powers, you might want to leave Hulk at home.

 

OK, I've said a few things and rambled a bit, I'll stop for now.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

I've played a number of characters whose XP ended up dwarfing thier starting points, and never had a "unrecognizabilty" point. Now there were points where the characters were re-imagined and had radiation accidents, but that was usually through character growth.

 

My first long term character Warrior started life as a 300 pt Martial Aritist with a complete code vs killing and a philisophy that is was better to die than to kill. His "super MA" stuff was due to the fact that he was being reincarnated and he kept previous life's training in ch'i and such, which took it to superhuman levels.

I retired him at about 950. His story was told, and I moved on. He had grown as a character as well as in power. Still solidly the same character.

 

Daniel Wright - a Ninja Hero character. Started 200 ended up retired about 600. same thing, story was told. Lots of character growth but no loss of identity.

 

Black Cat - Started as a darkforce enhanced martial artist (noticing a trend ?) on 250. Is currently at 750, and still going strong. She had a major shift at about 500 points. I had played the darkforce angle to it's ending point, and had nothing much more I could do with the powers and it didn't help telling the character's story - so I talked to the GM and had a rather long subplot that had her get depowered, and then come to a combat enlightenment and I rebuilt as a strait martial artist. Personality is the same, but with growth - she started as something of an angry young woman, now she is a classic "at peace master".

 

 

So I can see the concept happening, it has never happened to me. I'm sure part of the reason is I built characters who are trying to get better in what they do (martial arts, magic, utilizing thier powers) so the points spent and the character growth just fits in with character concept.

[Steve]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

In our campaign' date=' Mentor's PC mentalist Prodigy or Blackjack's brick Silhouette would scale up pretty well, but my MA Zl'f is already approaching a point where I can see problems developing in the not-too-distant future. I defuse the problem somewhat by buying her "fluff" skills, but I just can't see her adding 5 CON, 5 PD, or 5d6 more to her attacks. She's supposed to be fragile; it's an important part of her concept. At what point will Zl'f cease to be Zl'f as I originally envisioned her and want to play her? My gut tells me that's going to be around 450-460 points; and as she's currently at 404 points 450 isn't all that far off even if I start buying down Disads and Limitations. Two or three years at most and I'll either have to retire her or find another direction to take her.[/quote']

 

Well, in my experience a martial artist is one of the character types that can absorb an amazing amount of experience points without warping the basic concept. Expanding the breadth of a character's abilities instead of raising the power levels of the core abilities is the way to go. I recently helped a friend of mine design a solo Dark Champions masked vigilante. She's not too uber-powerful in combat (her kick does 10d6 and she has an 8 PD out of costume), but she has numerous non-combat things she can do. She totals up around Harbinger's level (950 points) when all Perks, Talents, skills, and whatnot are added up.

 

If Zl'f is supposed to be fragile, then add on non-combat abilities. Is she sneaky? Then buy super-skills like Security Ghost and Ultimate Stealth. Is she good with people? Then try Cinematic Flirting or Let's Talk. And even if she's fragile, she can buy up her Dex and Spd to whatever you feel her physical limits in that regard are, and take abilities like Combat Luck and Damage Reduction defined as an ability to roll with blows rather than soak up abuse.

 

Has Zl'f been posted anywhere on the boards?

[CourtFool]

Yes and No

 

As a lot of people have said, a lot depends on where you spend the XP. It has never happened to me because I never have enough XP to build my concept.

 

I play for wish fufillment. What do you expect?

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Well' date=' in my experience a martial artist is one of the character types that can absorb an amazing amount of experience points without warping the basic concept. Expanding the breadth of a character's abilities instead of raising the power levels of the core abilities is the way to go. I recently helped a friend of mine design a solo [i']Dark Champions[/i] masked vigilante. She's not too uber-powerful in combat (her kick does 10d6 and she has an 8 PD out of costume), but she has numerous non-combat things she can do. She totals up around Harbinger's level (950 points) when all Perks, Talents, skills, and whatnot are added up.

 

If Zl'f is supposed to be fragile, then add on non-combat abilities. Is she sneaky? Then buy super-skills like Security Ghost and Ultimate Stealth. Is she good with people? Then try Cinematic Flirting or Let's Talk. And even if she's fragile, she can buy up her Dex and Spd to whatever you feel her physical limits in that regard are, and take abilities like Combat Luck and Damage Reduction defined as an ability to roll with blows rather than soak up abuse.

 

Has Zl'f been posted anywhere on the boards?

Thanks for the ideas. "Let's Talk" sounds like a great idea considering she's supposed to be very cute and likeable. I'm currently in the process of buying her Combat Pilot (You'll see she has it as a Familiarity below. I also plan to buy her the Perk Licensed Pilot soon.) And while I don't want her having Stealth that will step on the toes of our MA stealth expert Cloud Dragon, it wouldn't hurt for her to be good enough at moving quietly that she could accompany him on a stealth mission even if he has to open all the locks and bypass the security systems. That's an area our JLA type team is a bit weak in.

 

I haven't posted Zl'f in about a year, so I'll post her current character sheet below.

 

[b]ZL'F - Elena Alekseyeva, Pavla Sergetov[/b]

[b][u]VAL[/u]   [u]CHA[/u]   [u]Cost[/u]   [u]Total[/u]   [u]Roll[/u]      [u]Notes[/u][/b]
15    STR     5   15      12-       HTH Damage 3d6  END [1]
43    DEX     39   43      18-       OCV 14 DCV 14
18    CON     16   18      13-
12    BODY    4   12      11-
13    INT     3   13      12-       PER Roll 12-/16-
14    EGO     8   14      12-       ECV: 5
13    PRE     3   13      12-       PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
20    COM     5   20      13-
12    PD      3   12             12 PD (8 rPD)
12    ED      2   12             12 ED (8 rED)
9    SPD     7   9                 Phases:  2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12
12    REC     10   12
36    END     0   36
29    STUN    0   29
30    RUN      0   30"                END [1]
8    SWIM     0   8"                END [1]
12    LEAP     0   12"                12" forward, 6" upward

[b]CHA Cost: 105[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]POWERS[/u][/b]
22     [b][i]Enhanced Reflexes[/i][/b]: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
1u     1)  [b][i]Thrown Objects[/i][/b]: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. PD), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points); OIF (Objects of Opportunity) (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=4
1u     2)  [b][i]Superspeed Strikes[/i][/b]: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1) (40 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=4
1u     3)  [b][i]Precision Strike[/i][/b]: EB 5d6 (vs. PD), NND (Rigid Armor or PD Force Field; +1/2) (37 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=4
1u     4)  [b][i]Blink of an Eye[/i][/b]: Teleportation 11", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift (37 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=4
2u     5)  [b][i]Catching Bullets[/i][/b]: Missile Reflection (Bullets & Shrapnel), Reflect At Any Target (45 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=0
1u     6)  [b][i]Superhuman Legs[/i][/b]: Leaping +9" (12" forward, 6" upward) (Accurate), (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
1u     7)  [b][i]Superhuman Legs[/i][/b]: Running +10" (30" total), (0 END; +1/2) (36 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
1u     8)  [b][i]Superhuman Musculature[/i][/b]: Swimming +6" (8" total), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Rapid Noncombat Movement (+1/4), (0 END; +1/2), Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1) (18 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
30     [b][i]Phenomenal Coordination[/i][/b]: +20 DEX; No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
33     [b][i]Amazing Speed[/i][/b]: +5 SPD; OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=
23     [b][i]Superfast Muscles[/i][/b]: Running +14" (30" total), (1/2 END; +1/4); OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) - END=1
2     [b][i]Vibrational Field[/i][/b]: Damage Resistance (2 PD/2 ED) - END=0
11     [b][i]Phenomenal Eyesight[/i][/b]: +4 PER with Sight Group and Rapid (x10):  +1 - END=0
4     [b][i]Ultraviolet Vision[/i][/b]: Ultraviolet Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); Flashed as Sight (-1/4) - END=0
1     [b][i]Ultrasonic Hearing[/i][/b]: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (3 Active Points); High Frequencies Only (-1) - END=0
7     [b][i]Super-Efficient Metabolism[/i][/b]: Life Support  (Extended Breathing (1 END/Turn) 1 END per Turn; Longevity 800 Years; Reduced Sleep Only needs 2 hours/night; Safe in Extreme Cold) - END=0
5     [b][i]Enhanced Metabolism[/i][/b]: Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Hour (-2 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0
2     [b][i]Team Radio (Earbug)[/i][/b]: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); Team Discount (-1 3/4), IIF Fragile (Earbug; -1/2), Limited Frequencies (-1/2), Flashed as Hearing (-1/4) - END=0

[b]POWERS Cost: 149[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]MARTIAL ARTS[/u][/b]
12      +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes
5      Sacrifice Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 10d6 Strike
4      Martial Strike:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike
4      Shove:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove
3      Legsweep/Wrist Throw:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 7d6 Strike, Target Falls
3      Martial Throw:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls
4      Martial Block:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4      Martial Dodge:  1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort
5      Flying Dodge:  1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4      Martial Escape:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR vs. Grabs
3      Martial Grab:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on
2      Weapon Element:  Empty Hand, Staffs, Sticks

[b]MARTIAL ARTS Cost: 53[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]SKILLS[/u][/b]
11      Acrobatics 22-
3      Breakfall 18-
3      Dexterity Tricks (DEX-based) 18-
5      Rapid Attack (HTH) 
3      Teamwork 18-
1      WF:  Fist-Loads, Staffs, Sticks, Unarmed Combat

3      PS: Executive Assistant (INT-based) 12-
3      Bureaucratics 12-
3      Computer Programming 12-
3      High Society 12-

0      Language:  Russian (Native)
3      Language:  English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)
4      Language:  Norwegian (Idiomatic)
0      Language:  Danish (Fluent conversation)
0      Language:  Swedish (Fluent conversation)

3      Riding (Horses) 18-
2      Animal Handler (Equines) 12-
3      Combat Driving: Skis 18-
1      Combat Piloting 8-
3      TF:  Automobiles, Ice Skating, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir, Small Aircraft
0      KS: Chess 11-
0      PS: Gymnastics 11-
0      AK: Russia 8-

20      +2 Overall

[b]SKILLS Cost: 77[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]PERKS[/u][/b]
2      Contact: Colonel Kershenko, Russian superagent (Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity) 8-
2      Alternate Identity: Pavla Sergetov

[b]PERKS Cost: 4[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]TALENTS[/u][/b]
12      Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
3      Supreme Balance (Narrow Surfaces)

[b]TALENTS Cost: 15[/b]
[b][u]Value[/u]  [u]DISADVANTAGES[/u][/b]
15     Social Limitation:  Secret ID: Pavla Sergetov Frequently (11-), Major
10     Social Limitation:  Small, looks like and often taken for a minor Frequently (11-), Minor
15     DNPC:  Gräfeldr Family (Hrolf, Gyda, Inge, Eirik) 8- (Infrequently), Normal, Useful noncombat position or skills, Group DNPC (x4 DNPCs) [Notes: Only Inge knows Zl'f's true identity]
10     Physical Limitation:  Small and light: (4'10" tall, 100 lbs., +3" KB) (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)
10     Physical Limitation: Colorblind (Sees only UV color):  Infrequently, Greatly Impairing
25     Susceptibility:  Desolidified Objects, 2d6 damage per Segment Uncommon
15     Hunted: Radical Russian Nationalists:  8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish
20     Psychological Limitation:  Code vs. Killing Common, Total
15     Psychological Limitation:  Overconfident Common, Strong
15     Psychological Limitation:  Protect Innocents Common, Strong

[b]DISADVANTAGES Points: 150[/b]

Base Pts: 200
Exp Required: 53
Total Exp Available: 54
Exp Unspent: 1
Total Character Cost: 403

[CourtFool]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

+5 SPD Affected by DEX and SPD Drains

 

Really?

 

Are you sure?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

+5 SPD Affected by DEX and SPD Drains

 

Really?

 

Are you sure?

I think the argument there might be that since it is otherwise DEX that is purchased as a "power", it is technically not affected by a DEX drain?! But I agree, it does seem a little thin.

 

But even Hero Designer supports this in a roundabout way. If you buy a 15 STR normally and then buy +25 STR OIHID (as a power of course) HD figures your total End for using your total STR 40 as 3 (15/10=1, 25/10=2).

 

HM

[CourtFool]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Not if you go to Totalling Options and selection Do Not Add To Totals.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

As a long-standing well known member of the world's premeir superteam, having fought world-class menaces repeatedly, higher PRE and EGO would seem natural.

 

"Extra Limbs" defined as moving so fast able to do things with two hands it would normally require 4 to do, able to keep multiple objects up at once (high-speed super-juggling).

 

An extra 30 or so Stun never hurt anyone. Still just as easy to hurt and be stunned, but hard to keep down.

 

Maybe work on her team-player aspect a bit, with something like "Instinctive Blocking" - gives adjacent teammates +2 DCV as she reflexively blocks attacks, pulls teammates out of the way, etc, never losing stride.

 

Some computer-based super-skills as she learns more. Having a good hacker on the team can help. She could run "overwatch" for Cloud Dragon sneaking in somewhere.

 

Maybe she's more of a "pixie" than even she thinks? Perhaps her vulnerability to desolidified objects hints at her partially other-dimensional nature...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

I think the argument there might be that since it is otherwise DEX that is purchased as a "power"' date=' it is technically not affected by a DEX drain?! But I agree, it does seem a little thin.[/quote']

 

I think the argument is that DEX drains do not normally reduce SPD, but I suspect it's also dovetailed to the EC so it's part of the "drain one aspect of the EC, drain them all" rule. Thus, I believe if I hit Z'lf with a Running drain, she'd also lose some bonus DEX and SPD, in addition to some loss of each power in her EC.

 

To the original question, I agree with the theory this depends on whether one remains true to the concept, and how far one is willing to stretch "concept". Phoenix (initially) had all her powers related to telekinesis and telepathy, powers Jean had before she went up. Whether one accepts a character who moves from "arrgh! what a strain to lift two feathers at once" to "I rearranged the molecules telekinetically" is true to concept is another matter. However, in the original run, when Jean was revealed to have telepathic, in addition to telekinetic, powers that seems to me to be a much greater change in concept.

 

I have a character sheet for my current Champs character (350 + a bit of xp) as I expect him to look years down the road (600 or 650 points, as I recall). I think he's still true to concept. [And his problem is "no skills because he's not all that bright"]

[Force]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Zornwil's "Scalability Notion" thread got me to thinking, and I thought this might be worthy of discussion in its own right.

 

At what point does a character concept become unrecognizable due to XP? Is there a point at which the character is no longer able to adhere to his original concept as he progresses in XP. Are certain genres and/or character archtypes more or less susceptible to this problem? Is it a problem at all? In D&D's fantasy setting characters seem able to progress in some classes almost infinitely, and a 20th level fighter is probably more than a match for 20 1st Level fighters. Would be possible in a superhero game? Or would any super simply have evolved so much with say double their original points that they can no longer be truly said to be the same character? The comics seem mixed. Batman and Iron Man are both much more powerful than when they started, yet both are still recognizable as who they started as. But the X-Men's Marvel Girl progressing to become Phoenix altered the character so fundamentally it literally became a different character. (I'd have to call that change more of a radiation accident than growth from experience, yet the effect was quite similar.)

 

In our campaign, Mentor's PC mentalist Prodigy or Blackjack's brick Silhouette would scale up pretty well, but my MA Zl'f is already approaching a point where I can see problems developing in the not-too-distant future. I defuse the problem somewhat by buying her "fluff" skills, but I just can't see her adding 5 CON, 5 PD, or 5d6 more to her attacks. She's supposed to be fragile; it's an important part of her concept. At what point will Zl'f cease to be Zl'f as I originally envisioned her and want to play her? My gut tells me that's going to be around 450-460 points; and as she's currently at 404 points 450 isn't all that far off even if I start buying down Disads and Limitations. Two or three years at most and I'll either have to retire her or find another direction to take her.

 

Has anyone ever run a single character so long that they were unhappy with the "damage" to the core concept was being inflicted by XP? (25 years ago when I played AD&D I had a Martial Monk who reached 13th Level. But I think he was a lot more fun to play when he was 8th - 10th Level; and I eventually retired him to run a low level paladin.)

 

If you're thinking this post is a bit incoherent, it is. I'm trying to deal with vague feelings of unease rather than a concrete problem.

 

In our campaigns, we have always allowed rebuilds, partial or full.

 

No complete overhaul of what you can do, but it does reflect 'growth' better.

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

I think the argument there might be that since it is otherwise DEX that is purchased as a "power", it is technically not affected by a DEX drain?! But I agree, it does seem a little thin.

 

But even Hero Designer supports this in a roundabout way. If you buy a 15 STR normally and then buy +25 STR OIHID (as a power of course) HD figures your total End for using your total STR 40 as 3 (15/10=1, 25/10=2).

The rationale for "Affected by SPD or DEX Drains" is that I consider the two to be aspects of the same ability; i.e., superhuman agility. That they're represented by two Characteristics in Hero is just game mechanics. And they're interlocked; in other words if she's hit with a SPD Drain she loses a proportionate amount of DEX (and also abilities in her MP) and a DEX Drain will affect her SPD in return. It's really just a very specialized form of Linked. Given that Zl'f's primary defenses are her SPD and DEX it's not an inappropriate or exaggerated Limitation. It was just easier to Cut and Paste the same Limitation in Hero Designer 2 rather than write up three separate -¼ versions.

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Maybe work on her team-player aspect a bit' date=' with something like "Instinctive Blocking" - gives adjacent teammates +2 DCV as she reflexively blocks attacks, pulls teammates out of the way, etc, never losing stride.[/quote']This has real merit, especially as she's often doing this kind of thing already with her current abilities. She often blocks for another character who can't Abort or covers a Stunned or otherwise incapacitated comrade (While Prodigy, our team mentalist, is very powerful in mental combat he's no better defended physically than Zl'f and also has far less agility to avoid attacks.).

 

Some computer-based super-skills as she learns more. Having a good hacker on the team can help. She could run "overwatch" for Cloud Dragon sneaking in somewhere.

I'll give that some thought. The problem here is that even applying her two Overall levels to give her a 14- Computer Programming roll she's still only the third best programmer on our team. Sihouette and Cyberknight are both vastly superior in that regard. Nonetheless, as part of a "penetration team" her computer skills might still be useful in support of Cloud Dragon, although she's by no means a l33t haXX0r.

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

I think the argument is that DEX drains do not normally reduce SPD' date=' but I suspect it's also dovetailed to the EC so it's part of the "drain one aspect of the EC, drain them all" rule. Thus, I believe if I hit Z'lf with a Running drain, she'd also lose some bonus DEX and SPD, in addition to some loss of each power in her EC.[/quote']While it's not explicitly purchased that way, in general I'd apply it like that. It would depend on the sfx of the Running Drain. If it's a drug, time dilation field, or the like then it would. If it's just a smearing of grease, ball bearings, or glue on the floor to make Running harder then it wouldn't directly affect her SPD and DEX.

 

BTW, Zl'f has an MP and not an EC, but I know what you meant.

[Steve]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Well, the impression I get is something of a cross between a martial artist of Bruce Lee caliber, the Flash and maybe a creature of Faerie. The first two give plenty of room to offer growth ideas without warping concept, and the last one could warp things.

 

I agree with earlier posters that a heightened Intelligence might seem like a good investment, since it represents speed of thought in some ways. Cramming, Speed Reading and Penalty Skill Levels to offset time modifiers are great places to pour points and show heightened speedster ability. For example, with nine levels to offset time modifiers, she could do something that normally takes five minutes in a single phase. She could take 360-Degree Perception for Sight to show that she's always looking around, making it pretty difficult to attack her unawares. Or maybe she has learned how to run so fast that she can run across water using a form of ground gliding. Even Ambidesterity and maybe Two-Weapon Fighting can show her agility in new ways.

 

Her martial arts can also offer areas of expansion in ability. Perhaps she's so good at working with her teammates that she is a better fighter when she is with one of them, which suggest an Aid Array build from UMA. Or maybe she is so skilled that she can fake out an opponent with her speed and agility, so she can buy the Feint ability from UMA.

 

A latent connection to Faerie would probably start to warp the concept, so I would stick with speedster tricks, martial arts stunts, and expanding her skill list. She could start pouring points into all kinds of skills very quickly and justify it as a form of hyper-learning. Consider this sort of exchange with an NPC:

 

Defender: "When did you learn how to speak Gaelic?"

 

Zl'f: "I was bored yesterday, so I read a few dozen books on it during lunch."

 

Just as an example.

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

More good ideas, although I should point out that Zl'f, despite her high SPD and DDX, is not really a speedster. I (and perhaps more importantly, my GMs) consider her to be a very fast martial artist. In our campaign we consider a speedster to be any character whose primary defenses and attacks derive primarily from their high movement (such as Move By/Through). In combat Zl'f moves quickly to hand to hand range and fights close in rather than racing by and hitting her target. So while some quasi-speedster abilities are OK, I don't want to take her into the realms of the Flash in terms of speed tricks. Think more along the lines of the agents in the the Matrix films than the Flash. They may dodge bullets but they don't outrun them.

 

Nonetheless, some of these suggestions are giving me some excellent insights into possible new directions for her to take. I see I was thinking far too narrowly.

[Steve]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

More good ideas' date=' although I should point out that Zl'f, despite her high SPD and DDX, is not really a speedster.[/quote']

 

Understood. I've always taken a speedster to be any character who has a 40+ Dex and a SPD over 8.

 

Unless my calculations are off, Zl'f can attain a sustainable non-combat speed of 201 MPH while running, which is fairly respectable.

 

 

Nonetheless' date=' some of these suggestions are giving me some excellent insights into possible new directions for her to take. I see I was thinking far too narrowly. [/quote']

 

That's part of the art of character design.

[Trebuchet]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Understood. I've always taken a speedster to be any character who has a 40+ Dex and a SPD over 8.

Our definition is not "official" by any means. It's almost as much a matter of tactics as of construction. Were Zl'f to do a Move Through at her full 30" Running speed, and since Combat Luck doesn't apply to deliberate damage by the character, she'd have only a PD of 6 and thus a 50% chance of Stunning herself and on a bad roll could knock herself unconscious and possibly take BODY as well. So for obvious reasons that's not a normal part of her tactical repertoire, although she's done it twice in her career, once when maximum damage was mission critical and once to save a Stunned comrade about to be pounded into the pavement by an enemy brick.

 

By contrast true speedsters use their velocity as a central part of their attack method and often have Passing Strike and defenses designed to handle damage from Move Throughs and the like. As my buddy Blackjack (who sometimes plays a flying speedster named Peregrine) has observed, lock Zl'f in a 10' x 10' room and she's in good shape. Lock Peregrine in the same room and she's hosed.

 

Unless my calculations are off, Zl'f can attain a sustainable non-combat speed of 201 MPH while running, which is fairly respectable.

Yep, but that's far from the Mach 2 she once could hit when I WAS running her as a speedster. She's much more fun to play as the super-gymnast she was originally concieved as than she was as the speedster-in-all-but-name she'd gradually evolved into over the years. I've taken her back to her conceptual roots and she's a much better character for it.

[lemming]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

+5 SPD Affected by DEX and SPD Drains

 

Really?

 

Are you sure?

Well, she has that limit on quite a few powers that aren't DEX or SPD so I'm thinking it's simplification. And that's not the point of this excercise anyway. edit: I hate when I start a message and then walk away. (six hours between start & finish...)

 

Where to spend points? PRE defense is always helpful. Even if the character doesn't exude it, after some time of saving the world you get less impressed by a guy with a .45

 

You can justify some more damage with just the speed at which she hits, so she should be viable that way if the damage of team mates increases.

 

I'll have to spend some more time, but there's plenty of room to grow.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

Hmmm...places to grow.

 

I think becoming the backup stealth character is a logical place for her to grow into, as you've said.

 

I suppose there's always more DEX One more and your CV goes up!

 

Lemming suggested PRE defense, but I'd be more inclined to buy up her Ego, representing increasing self-confidence and strength of will. Since PRE attacks go against the greater of Ego and PRE, this will also make her more resistant to PRE attacks.

 

You could grow the Multipower pool to permit simultaneous use of a movement and an attack power. That would also make room for potential higher active point abilities which require full focus of her attention. Maybe a "superdodge" type desolid (still affected by AE and explosions, and any attacks she doesn't perceive) that precludes attacking?

 

Looking at her skills, maybe she can grow in her private life beyond Executive Assistant and become more of a corporate manager/owner. There's great justification for some Wealth, Contacts, Favours, etc. Not sure if you want to grow in that direction, though. It would be a logical outgrowth of her "overachiever" personality to get competetive with her teammate rather than staying his executive assistant.

 

Did I miss Speed Reading in those talents? That would make a nice lead-in to Cramming ("Never heard of it, but give me a library and half an hour"). A variant of Universal Translator to reflect studing dozens of languages (ilimited to real world languages she could have come in contact with, for example) could make sense. Being deeply religious, what about some knowledge in that area? Perhaps a lay minister?

 

Damage Shield to reflect a riposte? Her reflexes are so good she can strike a target as he draws back from hitting her. Maybe a -1/4 limitation for "non-selective" (ie she still has to make a roll to hit, but she gets the shot without using an action)?

 

More END or REC? You'd likely have identified this as a problem by now if it was.

[TheEmerged]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

RE:Becoming unrecognizable. This usually isn't due to XP, in my experience. Granted we've only had a few campaigns exceed the 3 year mark (the current one soon will), though... Usually it's a function of the player deciding to go in a different direction, or succumbing to the homogeny ("I really should give my heat-based character flight, I mean, every heat-based character flies...").

 

To me the "Jump the Shark" moment is most obvious when the player starts talking about buying off disadvantages.

 

Sometimes the issue is that the initial concept isn't broad enough; among the current PC's in the campaign I could see this becoming a problem for our "bouncing boy" martial artist. The PC is built around a gamey aspect; the character itself has always been a little lacking (even the player admits that). Thankfully the player has decided to spend more of his experience on the 'insect' aspect of the concept -- what some would call "fluff" but I don't believe that's a fair statement.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

RE: Suggestions for Z'lf. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you see her more as a gymnist than a speedster, right? Too bad, there's no shortage of speedster tricks out there

 

Maybe adding some "athletic" schticks would be a possibility -- make her more of an Olympian than "just" gymnastics. One example might be +STR with some disadvantages to reflect a 'power stunt' instead of something she'd use constantly (RSR, Increased END)...

 

Another might be to add some PSL's to adjust Skill checks to reflect the ease with which she can do thing -- such as levels against the penalty for being prone. Of course this only works if your GM belongs to the same rule with regards to skill rolls I am...

[yamamura]

Re: At what point does a character become unrecognizable due to XP?

 

When I was playing SUPERBABES, there was a character I was playing that at 10th level I didn't realy know what to spend her character points on. It frustated me because to buy any new powers or to increase existing powers would not be in character. So I can see there is a point in which a character does become somewhat static and really shouldn't grow beyond that in ability (other then some slight skill improvements). But then the question becomes what to do with all that backlog of experience and as one person points out, what to do if the other players are getting out of your league.

 

G