Batman vs Midnighter

[Wanderer]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

A 60+ year publishing history of escaping such battles?

 

at least 3/4 of which have been spent fighting the unpowered likes of Joker, Penguin, Riddler and assorted goons and crooks

 

Edit: yes, I'm aware of the JLA "Bat-God" Phenomenon. It appears that whenever Bats hangs up with the rest of the JLA god-like crew, his otherwise latent world-class mutant or chi-based "master warrior" superpowers activate, turning a somewhat believable very-well-trained, but unpowered martial arts vigilante into a cosmic-level uberpowered God of Battle. Following this line of thought, JLA superpowered Bats might fight Midnighter on an equal ground. After all, Midnighter was originally written to be an Iron Age version of the JLA batman archetype with a somewhat more believable superpowered SFX. Either that, or having the Bats clone always keep bitching about being hopelessy outmatched by the cosmic guys (cfr. Supreme Power).

[Victim]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Aside from Midnighter's super abilities, isn't this match basically like Kasparov vs. Deep Blue?

[Vorsch]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

The machine won

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Any time that a single member of the Authority is mentioned on these boards, I feel that a trip to hater-town is in order. Riding the hater-vater on down to enjoy a big old glass of hater-ade.

 

To that I find myself wondering, "Why you got to be a hater?"

 

You would thiink this run of comics would be the worst in history, right up there with Lois Lane #106 (where Lois announces "It's important I live the next 24 hours as a black woman!") and Pinhead and Foodini #1. Sheesh.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Midnighter didn't kill the Americans cap analogue he just used the petrol-powered dildo on him after Apollo crippled him.on the other hand he did kick the snot out of the whole x men analogue in the same run.

 

Much as I hate to say it I think midnighter would win unless batman has something in his utility belt that would shut down midnighter early before midnighter realized and put that limited super speed to use. If batman survived then the second fight would go to Bats with his scientific genius used to figure out how to jam the computer and kick midnighter ass six ways from Sunday unfortunatly midnighter doesn’t leave his enemies alive (perhaps the swift intervention of talia and a lazarus pit?).

[NeoSamurai]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

With the parameters as presented, this battle would depend on several qualifications of those parameters:

 

-What are the stakes?

-What gadgets are allowable as available?

 

For stakes--that comes down to sheer will and drive of both men.

 

If any gadget is allowable, then Bats. Batman has several items (if all gadgets are allowed) that deal with shorting out electronic devices (minor EMP devices, etc), explosives, acid pellets, etc.

 

And Batman never fights straightout if he can help it.

 

Still it would be a tough call.

[gewing]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

I for one would never buy the comic. I tried reading "the Authority" and decided it wasn't worth my time.

 

Maybe there were good things there.

 

I didn't see them.

[Rick R Mortis]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Batman has been aorund since, what, 1938. He;s probably the second or third most famous superhero in the world (Behind Supes and possibly Spide). Most people say "Who" when you mention the Midnighter. Justl ook at htis thread.

 

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

 

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

 

Rick R.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

 

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

 

I would propose to call this the "Fables Principal".

 

[Hopefully that's more recognizeable than my previous Grimjack reference - and Gaunt would clean Midnighter's clock too Fire, I believe you've met Gasoline - I'll just leave you two to get reacquainted ]

[death tribble]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.

Superman would have more of an edge, faster speed and unusual weaknesses. But Batman ? No contest I am afraid.

[Wanderer]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Batman has been aorund since, what, 1938. He;s probably the second or third most famous superhero in the world (Behind Supes and possibly Spide). Most people say "Who" when you mention the Midnighter. Justl ook at htis thread.

 

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

 

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

 

Rick R.

 

If we invoke fanboyish arguments like respective title popularity, of course Batman beats Midnighter, Spiderman beats Silver Surfer, Punisher beats Power Girl and Daredevil beats Miracleman. Writer's fiat from a sufficiently doped author can set up even the most hilariously improbable outcome to the most outclassed confrontation ever (see "Spiderman beats Firelord" crap).

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

How about Karate Kid vs Midnighter?

 

Someone said that one very well a while ago in the ultimate fighter thread :

 

 

Midnighter belongs on the list, and would easily beat most who are on the list, but he would have no chance vs. Karate Kid. He'd observe KK tearing people like Captain America apart effortlessly, and his battle computer would run 1,000,000 combat scenarios in a split second - and he'd be stunned to see himself losing in every one of those scenarios Even the ones that begin with "in this scenario, Karate Kid is blindfolded, bound and has boat anchors chained to his feet."

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

[Hopefully that's more recognizeable than my previous Grimjack reference - and Gaunt would clean Midnighter's clock too Fire, I believe you've met Gasoline - I'll just leave you two to get reacquainted ]

 

Gaunt would just lead him on a merry chase through Cinosure until they get to a place where the combat computer wouldn't work - then your line.

[Susano]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Gaunt would just lead him on a merry chase through Cinosure until they get to a place where the combat computer wouldn't work - then your line.

 

Oh hell yeah. Of better yet, to some place where the combat computer would rebel, and then you get to see Midnighter rip himself apart.

 

 

OTOH: I liked the initial run of Authority, which was up until Jenny Spark died. Then the whole "we can make a better world" concept was replaced with "we can do what ever we want." It was a brutal world and certainly what you'd get if one combined Dark Champions morality with Galactic Champions power levels.

[Victim]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.

 

So what? I'm not going to deny that Midnighter's battlecomputer is a huge advantage. But it's not an "I win" button either. There are a few simple principles that explain why: game theory and decision tree analysis already attempt to deal with perfect and imperfect information. Even with perfect information, you aren't guarenteed a win, or even the best possible outcome. And then there's perceptual issues, or in some respects Garbage in, Garbage out.

[Vorsch]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

it also dosent help if the other guy is faster stronger and more skilled.

 

I can tell a 4 year old exactly how im going to beat him, and even with this perfect knowledge his lack of physical ability means hes going to lose.

 

Batman has no chance in any incarnation, even bat-god, in a straight fight, even if midnighter didnt have the computer hes still a master MA with superhuman stats ie whatever batman has +15 say.

 

Raw power is actually a advantage. Thats why Karate Kid seem so stupid, no amount of skill, no matter how perfect physically, allows you to take on a kryptonian who has mountain pushing str and lightspeed reactions as well as almost complet invulnerability to damage.

 

Even midnighter is outclassed and beaten by some opponents, why cant batman?

[NeoSamurai]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.

 

But such technology as possessed by Midnighter is only as good as the information available to him--if he doesn't know what tricks Bats available, most of the scenarios he develops would be obsolete against Batman. The computer program cannot read minds.

 

Additionally, despite the amount of scenario review that Midnighter has available, a decision has to be made as to which to react to. Most computer prediction/scenario analytical programs depend on highest probability or most likelihood of an action to occur. The User still needs to make a decision based off that information. So, any decision that Midnighter makes using his tactical computer is dependent on how Midnighter views most probable results.

 

Then there is the point that Batman has embraced the martial aspect of combat into his being. This is not so much the metaphysical but psychological aspect of martial arts--the "no mind" principle of letting the body act without discernable thought. This suggests that Batman's actions are not telegraphed (as is indicative of thinking of what move to use) but flow from his nature.

 

Another factor to consider is the use of the cape. There is a reason for Batman to wear the cape other than because its theatric/psychological value. The cape is designed to hide Batman's motions, to allow him to strike from surprise and to suggest that he is bigger or smaller in girth than what others may think. This gives Bat's the added advantage of misinformation.

 

This gives Batman more of a fighting chance when you consider his tactical use of his gadgets. As much as I dislike bats being portrayed as a man-god, he has the capabilities of putting up a very bloody and violent fight against Midnighter.

[Phil]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

But such technology as possessed by Midnighter is only as good as the information available to him--if he doesn't know what tricks Bats available, most of the scenarios he develops would be obsolete against Batman. The computer program cannot read minds.

Well, actually the point of it is that - effectively - it does. It basically brain scans, a pseudo-scientific martial arts telepathy.

 

Additionally, despite the amount of scenario review that Midnighter has available, a decision has to be made as to which to react to. Most computer prediction/scenario analytical programs depend on highest probability or most likelihood of an action to occur.

 

I think you're confusing a comic-book science cybernetic quantum brain computer with a good old fashioned silicon device. Think less IBM and more Brainiac / Prometheus.

 

Then there is the point that Batman has embraced the martial aspect of combat into his being. This is not so much the metaphysical but psychological aspect of martial arts--the "no mind" principle of letting the body act without discernable thought. This suggests that Batman's actions are not telegraphed (as is indicative of thinking of what move to use) but flow from his nature.

Erm, what?! Bats is a good fighter. Depending on whether its JLA or his own lines, he may be better than that. But he's beaten often enough by fairly ordinary gooks. I'm reminded of a fantastic Legends of the Dark Knight, illustrated by one of my favourite 2000AD alumni, Colin MacNeil, in which he is on the verge of being soundly beaten by a Russian sailor armed with a boathook.

 

Personally, I do hate threads like this, but feel obliged to chip in! As a lifelong Bats fan, I'll defend his ability to beat pretty much anyone in the DCU given (as mentioned above) his 'schtick' of allowing preparation time. But Midnighter is not of the DCU, he's the Authority, and they are all around the Supes power-level without the kryptonite problem. Just check out the Tri-Stat Authority write-ups and weep... Or, to put in Hero terms, Midnighter has higher (super-human levels) STR, DEX, CON, BOD, EGO, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN.

[Korvar]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

If Bats were able to work out the existence of Midnighter's battle computer (or if he conveniently monologues it all, as he usually seems to), then I wonder if Bats could beat him by deliberately taking non-optimal actions, thus confusing the computer...

[Vorsch]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

In Chess a optimal strategy against a winning position opponent is slow death

 

Sub optimal strategies - are lossing quicker

 

A strategy designed to fake a apponent is not sub optimal.

 

Sorry but midnighters quantum battle computer,allows him to choose the best strategy ( for which he is physically capable ) against any action. In effect he fights the battle a million million times and merely choses the one he wins in as the correct reality .

 

If thats not the case then its not a Quantum computer.

[racoffin]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Actually, Midnighter has been beaten by a relative normal in the past.

 

In Stormwatch: Team Achillies (the exact issue escapes me), one of the team members uses a viral-type attack to disable all of Midnighter's enhancements. His combat computer, strength, speed, and more are all cybernetic enhancements. Without those, he isn't much of a fighter at all. His opponent took the opportunity to completely destroy Midnighter, breaking bones, and leaving him in a small, bloody pile.

 

As an aside, for those who haven't read it, Team Achillies is a group set up specifically to take down super-powered beings. And they pretty much handed the Authority their rears. So if they can do it, Batman most certainly can and will, given enough time and if he lives to escape the first fight.

[nexus]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

Actually, Midnighter has been beaten by a relative normal in the past.

 

In Stormwatch: Team Achillies (the exact issue escapes me), one of the team members uses a viral-type attack to disable all of Midnighter's enhancements. His combat computer, strength, speed, and more are all cybernetic enhancements. Without those, he isn't much of a fighter at all. His opponent took the opportunity to completely destroy Midnighter, breaking bones, and leaving him in a small, bloody pile.

 

As an aside, for those who haven't read it, Team Achillies is a group set up specifically to take down super-powered beings. And they pretty much handed the Authority their rears. So if they can do it, Batman most certainly can and will, given enough time and if he lives to escape the first fight.

 

Well, yeah. If you can shut down all of Midnighter's abilities and enhancments he's easy to beat. Its doing so that can be tough.

[Vorsch]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

I forgot Batman is the equal of a a goverment angency, sorry i appologise,superior to a goverment agency.

 

Just cos he owns a mega corp dosent mean he can do what he wants technically. As most write ups have it he does all his science work himself, i mean to say who do you contract out for BAT gadgets?

 

Team Achilles just exemplifies why super wouldnt even bother existing, oh you exist we can kill you. wow there super

 

and everone else is a target, oh but wait its run by normals, menton takes over...or whoever.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

bats not only invents his own stuff takes teh best toyus from his own massive mega cvorps R&D department but laso contracts out to Ted Kord the blue beetle and i think owns a large share in star labs( for nifty thingsh villains have toyed with)

[Watchdog]

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

 

If the power levels of their respective boyfriends enter into the equation, I have to give it to Midnighter.