A different way to figure order in combat segments

[ShadowRaptor]

I was just flipping through the book, reading the combat section and noticed that no matter what the characters will go in the same rough order all the time and I was trying to figure a way to change it.

 

Then I was reading JAGS and an idea popped into my head, which is this:

 

At the beginning of each combat, each person makes a DEX check and compares it to their Dexterity roll. If they fail their roll, they subtract 1 from their total DEX for each they missed by unless they roll a natural 18. If they succeed they add one to their respective DEX for each number they succeed by unless they roll a natural 3. If they critically fail, they roll 3d6 and subtract that from their DEX on top of the previous difference, and if they critically succeed they roll 3d6 and add it to their DEX on top of the previous difference.

 

I don't know if this would work, but it could lead to some interesting combat orders.

 

Or, the roll could be based on some other characteristic, like INT or EGO, but still modify DEX according to how well it was rolled. I don't know how well that would be though.

 

Any thoughts??? Is this good? Bad? so so...?

[CrosshairCollie]

Too big a pain to roll extra dice every segment. Hero combat is already a bit on the slow side, and stopping to compute who moves where could be a very onerous task.

[BNakagawa]

Every segment? The original post said something about once per combat, not once per segment.

[Lord Liaden]

The only real concern I would have about this is that combat ranking is one of the benefits of DEX that you pay those hard-earned Character Points for. For my part, I'd be annoyed if my character lost that benefit for an entire combat due to a random die roll. However, if your players wanted the variety and all agreed to it, it could be interesting.

 

I've had success in the past with adding variety by randomizing the Phases on which a character can act. The method I employed was suggested by Steve Perrin in his "GM's Discretion" column back in Adventurers Club #21. Each player rolls a D12 every Segment, and if the player rolls his SPD or less, he gets an action Phase that Segment. Although DEX still governs the order of action, the order of Phases would be unpredictable, which reduces some of the meta-gaming "I'll declare a Haymaker on my Phase 6 because my opponent can't move again until Segment 8" that some people find annoying. And the character's SPD stat is still applicable to how often he gets to act.

 

Because the vagaries of the dice could mean that a given character might never roll well enough to get an action, Steve Perrin also suggested that for each die roll that a character misses, he adds 1 to his target number next roll, cumulatively, until he succeeds, when the roll resets to his raw SPD again.

 

Don't know if that's what you're looking for, but it does work pretty smoothly and doesn't take long to get used to.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

d12 every Phase, then reset? I like that. I might use that...

[CrosshairCollie]

You're right, once a combat, my bad.

[Steve Long]

I've been in games using the d12 method. As LL says, it often works pretty well (in fact I mention it in an upcoming HEROglyphs column on tinkering with the SPD Chart), but I've also seen it work horribly. I've seen low-SPD characters roll well and go six or seven times a Turn, and high-SPD characters roll so poorly that they have to stand there, Segment after Segment, doing nothing. A GM who wants to use it might want to consider a few additional rules, like giving every character X minimum Phases per Turn, to even things out.

[Heroman]

I for one am not a big fan of 'random initiative', especially in a pure points based system. As mentioned, people do pay serious points for both DEX and SPD, although I do see that you do 'earn' something with higher probabilities thru your purchase.

OK, the real fact is probably that I don't want to maintain extra figures for my NPCs

One thing I have been thinking of is expanding some Karma designs to alter initiative. Originally talked about way back when, I have worked up my own Karma chart (think: CPs, the lite version. Burned for special effects based on a chart) to introduce alot of 'controlled' randomness (re-rolls, OCV levels, etc). I could easily see allowing players to spend Karma to temporarily increase their Initiative (and maybe even SPD), thus allowing for randomness to the combat order, but in a more controlled manner...

[Arthur]

I use 2d6. Much stronger probability toward the middle numbers. That makes the long stretches of very low or very high numbers very unlikely.

 

Besides, who needs any kind of dice other than d6 anymore? We have Hero - who wants to play any other RPGs?

 

I used a similar system in GURPS on a Turn by Turn basis. The feeling that players got of "I control my own fate a little more" far offset the extra die-rolling.

 

In Hero, if my character has a DEX of 23, I KNOW for a fact every single time I am going to have an action before Mr. DEX 21. That's too much predictability for combat.

 

Every Segment, everybody who is going to act that Segment rolls 2d and adds that to their raw DEX to determine combat order. I just start counting down from there (anybody over 30? 29...28....). Makes things a lot more dynamic and the extra excitement and fun is well worth the extra complexity.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Arthur

I use 2d6. Much stronger probability toward the middle numbers. That makes the long stretches of very low or very high numbers very unlikely.

 

Spped 5...

1d12 chance of going on any given phase 42%

2d6 chance of goinf in any given phase 28%

 

Speed 6

1d12 chance of going on any given phase 50%

2d6 chance of going on any given phase 42%

 

Unless your speeds tend to run higher than this, 2d6 is actually increasing the likelihood of inactivity, and also the likelihood of spans of inactivity, not reducing it.

 

Sure you are sacking the probabilities in at around 7, but that will normally be out of range.

 

The biggest thing 2d6 does is skew the bebefits.

 

paying 10 points for a 4 speed vs a 3 speed gains you 3 more chances in 36 of going on any given action. Spending the same 10 points for going from a 6 speed to a 7 speed earns you 6 more chances in 36.

 

If you want "bang fer buck" to remain consistent, then speed 7 should cost 20 points more than speed 6 IF speed 4 costs 10 more points than speed 3.

[tesuji]

For those experienced in using a "roll per segment to see if you get an action or not"... how much time does this add to a typical super-team on super-team combat? What about if you have a half-dozen agents added to the mix?

 

The first blush that came to my mind was rolling for actions for everybody every phase would add quite a bit of time.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by tesuji

For those experienced in using a "roll per segment to see if you get an action or not"... how much time does this add to a typical super-team on super-team combat? What about if you have a half-dozen agents added to the mix?

 

The first blush that came to my mind was rolling for actions for everybody every phase would add quite a bit of time.

 

For the players, it quickly became reflex: everybody rolls at the same time, and could see immediately whether they get to act or not that Segment. That added quite a bit of exitement to the start of combat, plus some mood-enhancing cheers or groans.

 

As a GM, I did for these combat order rolls what I also do for attack rolls when running a large number of NPCs: roll a bunch of results in advance, then cross them off my list as they come up each Phase. Since agents are usually all the same DEX and SPD and would act at the same time in the normal combat order by the Speed Chart, I just make one roll for all of them.

 

BTW, I can understand Steve Long's experience with a series of disasterous D12 rolls as he describes above, although that was never the experience with my group. Any player can have a run of ludicrously good or bad luck with the dice - it's part of introducing a random factor to the game. Mind you, it can happen more often rolling a straight D12 than multiples of D6 where the bell-curve takes shape, and it would stand out more when that result determines whether you can act at all or not.

 

For the record, I tried this method at the request of several players; personally I love how the Speed Chart keeps everything organized.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I've been in games using the d12 method. As LL says, it often works pretty well (in fact I mention it in an upcoming HEROglyphs column on tinkering with the SPD Chart), but I've also seen it work horribly. I've seen low-SPD characters roll well and go six or seven times a Turn, and high-SPD characters roll so poorly that they have to stand there, Segment after Segment, doing nothing. A GM who wants to use it might want to consider a few additional rules, like giving every character X minimum Phases per Turn, to even things out.

 

I'm curious, Steve: How would you suggest giving a minimum number of actions to a character without changing the randomness of the determination? (If this is going into your HEROglyphs column, I'll hold my tongue until it comes out.)

[AaronD]

I used a modified version of the D12 thing. As the GM, I would roll one D12. Everyone with that Speed or less would act (in Dex order). If I rolled a 12 then the turn would end and everyone would get a REC. That mixed it up quite well. Since it was a fantasy game I didn't have to worry about move/segment.

 

Aaron

[Lord Liaden]

Aaron, that's an interesting statement to me, because the last time I discussed this on the boards it was in response to another GM who was looking for an alternative to exactly the method you describe. He said that his players complained that when he rolled a series of sucky results, they all suffered. That might show up more in a supers level game, though, where there tends to be a wider range of Speeds at play than in fantasy.

 

BTW, Steve Perrin's column also suggested allowing players to take a Recovery and perform other post-segment 12 actions when they rolled a natural 12, although I never tried that one myself.

[tiger]

Originally posted by AaronD

I used a modified version of the D12 thing. As the GM, I would roll one D12. Everyone with that Speed or less would act (in Dex order). If I rolled a 12 then the turn would end and everyone would get a REC. That mixed it up quite well. Since it was a fantasy game I didn't have to worry about move/segment.

 

Aaron

 

What if someone actualy paid for a spd of 11 or 12. Seem to me that they would rarely get to go with this method

[Old Man]

I think he meant that SPD or lower.

 

Instead of making extra die rolls I fall back on INT. If Segment is same, DEX is same, then whoever has higher INT goes first.

[BNakagawa]

More likely SPD or higher.

 

I always wanted to try something a little funky.

 

Every combatant takes a number of 3x5 cards equal to their SPD and writes their name on it. Collect all the cards, shuffle and start from the top. Every time your name is called, you get an action. Finish all the cards, and the turn is over, everyone gets a post 12 recovery. Shuffle again, start over.

 

What it doesn't do is handle segments well. Or dex-order.

 

Oh well. It seemed like it might be fun.

 

$0.02

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Aaron, that's an interesting statement to me, because the last time I discussed this on the boards it was in response to another GM who was looking for an alternative to exactly the method you describe. He said that his players complained that when he rolled a series of sucky results, they all suffered. That might show up more in a supers level game, though, where there tends to be a wider range of Speeds at play than in fantasy.

I'm curious, what would you consider a "sucky" roll to be? Since everyone would go on a 1, 2 or 3 (usually), I just can't see any result being bad for the entire party (unless, on average, the party had lower speed than the NPCs).

 

Aaron

[AaronD]

Yes, I meant Speed or higher.

 

Originally posted by BNakagawa

What it doesn't do is handle segments well.

 

Maybe shuffle in 12 end of segment cards.

 

Theres a miniature wargame like this.

 

 

Aaron

[ShadowRaptor]

I was just thinking of a way to spice it up. If I am a player and I have a Dex 19 and the other player has a Dex 20 and we both have Spd 4, then he will always go before me unless he decides to wait his action. I would prefer some kind of randomization to spice it up a bit to make it seem like its more spontaneous.

 

I did suggest my original at the beginning of combat and leave it at that, but that would also be somewhat unrealistic. Perhaps if the roll was after each Post 12 Segment or something like that. But not each segment itself. I don't want that much bookkeeping.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by AaronD

I'm curious, what would you consider a "sucky" roll to be? Since everyone would go on a 1, 2 or 3 (usually), I just can't see any result being bad for the entire party (unless, on average, the party had lower speed than the NPCs).

 

Aaron

 

I think what he was getting at was that if he as GM was rolling the only die to see who would act that Segment, and kept rolling above everyone's Speed time after time just from random chance, then long periods of time could pass with all the characters just standing around waiting to do something. The possibility of that would be even greater in heroic-level games where Speeds are lower than super-heroic.

 

At least with each player rolling his or her own die, the odds are greater that someone will get lucky.

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I think what he was getting at was that if he as GM was rolling the only die to see who would act that Segment, and kept rolling above everyone's Speed time after time just from random chance, then long periods of time could pass with all the characters just standing around waiting to do something. The possibility of that would be even greater in heroic-level games where Speeds are lower than super-heroic.

 

I see now. What I did was roll multiple d12s in a row (I have lots of them) and then scan down to see the next one that was 4 (max SPD) or less.

 

If everyone's Speed is 6 or less, you can just roll d6s instead.

 

However, I'm starting to like the card way. I think I'll try that next.

 

Aaron

[NuSoardGraphite]

How about using ICV or Initiative Combat Value?

 

This is a substat based on the characters unadjusted Combat Value. Take that number and add a die roll of 1D6. Highest to lowest that phase.

 

PC's would now be able to purchase Skill levels that affect ICV (this would effectively replace Lightning Reflexes). ICV penalties due to injuries and whatnot can be gleamed from similar OCV penalties. Penalties because of a weapons STR Min can affect ICV as well as OCV. Penalties due to heavy armor apply also. Etc, etc.

 

This is an idea I plan to playtest at some point in the future...

[Old Man]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

I was just thinking of a way to spice it up. If I am a player and I have a Dex 19 and the other player has a Dex 20 and we both have Spd 4, then he will always go before me unless he decides to wait his action. I would prefer some kind of randomization to spice it up a bit to make it seem like its more spontaneous.

 

I always thought this was the case as well but see FREd p 260-261 Hipshot and Hurry