More Strength for Martial Artists?

[Agent333]

So there I am writing up villains and I tripped over two guys written one after the other. One was a straight up Brick, the other a rather vanilla Martial Artist. Seems that it finally clicked in place for me, these two guys have the same job (almost exactly): beat up the other guy and don't get hurt. The Brick buys up big defenses along with his big STR (maybe a brick-trick or two). The MA buys up maneuvers and his DEX (maybe DCV levels)

 

So now, I'm looking at the way they are made: Brick gets a big boost on his way to being a tough guy thanks to his Strength and then he's dumping 40+ points into defense. The MA is a bit fragile in comparison, but spending over 40 points in DEX does make that go down easier. As for their hitting power, I get a bit of a disconnect. The Brick spends 50 points for his 60 STR and all its benefits. My MA guy buys 20 STR and then buys DC levels for his Martial Art maneuvers.

 

Looking at this I realized my MA was throwing down 16 points for the DC bonus and still had to pay points to get his REC to 10 and his PD to 10+ not to mention topping off his STUN. Now, I realise the DEX is the big equalizer overall between the characters, but it seemed to me that I would have been better off spending the 16 points for more STR instead of the bonus DC.

 

Okay, I can already see some of you guys rolling your eyes, cracking your knuckles and getting ready to type me the "DEX lets you hit more often" speech. Been there and done that back in the 20th century. What I'm going to bring up here is this: besides genre conventions (or common sense, your pick) why aren't the MAs buying a limited form of Strength like "Does not add to lifting or leaping ability (-1/4)"?

 

I mean, it would be the same 4 points per +1D6 you spend on bonus DCs except now you get a bonus to your PD, REC, STUN, etc... or would it not? What really got me going on this train of thought was a brick that I finally gave some MA maneuvers to (see Brick Tricks in TUB or UMA). The dude was incredibly effective afterwards and with just 11 points of maneuvers (Fast Strike, Martial Grab, Martial Block), I dare say he was showing up the Martial Artist (...just not hiting as often... )

 

What do you guys think? Am I missing something or should MAs get to buy more STR than usual? Maybe a limited STR like the one above?

[Agent X]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

So there I am writing up villains and I tripped over two guys written one after the other. One was a straight up Brick, the other a rather vanilla Martial Artist. Seems that it finally clicked in place for me, these two guys have the same job (almost exactly): beat up the other guy and don't get hurt. The Brick buys up big defenses along with his big STR (maybe a brick-trick or two). The MA buys up maneuvers and his DEX (maybe DCV levels)

 

So now, I'm looking at the way they are made: Brick gets a big boost on his way to being a tough guy thanks to his Strength and then he's dumping 40+ points into defense. The MA is a bit fragile in comparison, but spending over 40 points in DEX does make that go down easier. As for their hitting power, I get a bit of a disconnect. The Brick spends 50 points for his 60 STR and all its benefits. My MA guy buys 20 STR and then buys DC levels for his Martial Art maneuvers.

 

Looking at this I realized my MA was throwing down 16 points for the DC bonus and still had to pay points to get his REC to 10 and his PD to 10+ not to mention topping off his STUN. Now, I realise the DEX is the big equalizer overall between the characters, but it seemed to me that I would have been better off spending the 16 points for more STR instead of the bonus DC.

 

Okay, I can already see some of you guys rolling your eyes, cracking your knuckles and getting ready to type me the "DEX lets you hit more often" speech. Been there and done that back in the 20th century. What I'm going to bring up here is this: besides genre conventions (or common sense, your pick) why aren't the MAs buying a limited form of Strength like "Does not add to lifting or leaping ability (-1/4)"?

 

I mean, it would be the same 4 points per +1D6 you spend on bonus DCs except now you get a bonus to your PD, REC, STUN, etc... or would it not? What really got me going on this train of thought was a brick that I finally gave some MA maneuvers to (see Brick Tricks in TUB or UMA). The dude was incredibly effective afterwards and with just 11 points of maneuvers (Fast Strike, Martial Grab, Martial Block), I dare say he was showing up the Martial Artist (...just not hiting as often... )

 

What do you guys think? Am I missing something or should MAs get to buy more STR than usual? Maybe a limited STR like the one above?

Why not just buy hand attack and define it as martial arts?

[Agent333]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Why not just buy hand attack and define it as martial arts?

 

Bonus PD, Bonus REC, Extra STUN, added damage to HKAs.. stuff that STR does but HA won't touch. Bricks get these benefits while MAs have to buy the "parts" of STR individually.

[OddHat]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Bonus PD' date=' Bonus REC, Extra STUN, added damage to HKAs.. stuff that STR does but HA won't touch. Bricks get these benefits while MAs have to buy the "parts" of STR individually.[/quote']

 

That would be because STR is underpriced.

 

From a rules philosophy POV, if you put a limitation on a primary characteristic, it should also have mening for the figured charateristics that the primary characterisitic grants. "Can only be used for Martial Arts Purposes" fails to meet that criteria; you'd have to either add No Figured Characteristics or, if you wanted the figured stats for a martial artist, take it as a -0 limit.

 

You can also just run a Destroyer / Wuxia / Dragon Ball Z class martial artist who clearly does have Super Strength, defined as deriving from his martial arts.

[Dust Raven]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Please let's not start another STR bashing thread...

 

The difference here is that the STR costs END and the Martial Art DC does not, and the DC apply to all types of maneuvers, including the base damage of a Killing Strike, Flases and NNDs. A martial artist that buys DCs should be using this maneuvers, or else he's better off buying HA or STR. With those maneuvers, he's getting much better deal with the DCs.

[Guest C--]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Agreeing with Dust Raven here.

 

I always buy my martial artists at least a 20 or a 25 Str. That gives them a fair amount of Stun and other figureds. If you're buying something like +4 DC for your martial arts, and you're not using killing strike or an NND, then you're really wasting your points.

 

Martial artists have a few benefits. First, the extra combat values you get from maneuvers (+2 OCV and DCV for Martial Block, that rocks!) are extremely helpful. Second, certain maneuvers that allow a full move (like passing strike or flying dodge) are really useful as well. Finally, you can be a complete cheeseball and use martial arts maneuvers in a multiple power attack. "I hit him with my legsweep, my martial strike, my offensive strike and then I lay into him with my martial grab and my choke hold. That's segment 5." The brick can't pull that one off.

 

But yeah, if you don't want to use your maneuvers, you're better off with just building a martial brick and being done with it.

[Agent333]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

The difference here is that the STR costs END and the Martial Art DC does not, and the DC apply to all types of maneuvers, including the base damage of a Killing Strike, Flases and NNDs. A martial artist that buys DCs should be using this maneuvers, or else he's better off buying HA or STR. With those maneuvers, he's getting much better deal with the DCs.

 

BINGO! That's what I was missing Thanks Dust Raven.

[BNakagawa]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

True, but even a 60 STR brick with 0 end on all of his STR costs less than a 20 STR martial artist with martial strike and 6 damage classes who buys up his PD to 12, rec to 12 + con/5 and 20 additional points of Stun...

 

(50 for the STR and 30 for 0 end on 60 STR vs 10 for a 20 STR, 10 points minimum for martial arts, 24 for 6 DC and 8 points of PD, 8 points of REC and 20 points of STUN for a total cost of 80 vs 88)

 

This brick also lifts more, jumps farther and spends less END throwing a punch than the martial artist does...

[Tech]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

True, but even a 60 STR brick with 0 end on all of his STR costs less than a 20 STR martial artist with martial strike and 6 damage classes who buys up his PD to 12, rec to 12 + con/5 and 20 additional points of Stun...

 

(50 for the STR and 30 for 0 end on 60 STR vs 10 for a 20 STR, 10 points minimum for martial arts, 24 for 6 DC and 8 points of PD, 8 points of REC and 20 points of STUN for a total cost of 80 vs 88)

 

This brick also lifts more, jumps farther and spends less END throwing a punch than the martial artist does...

 

If we're going to start segmenting types of characters, then the brick-type is going to theoretically have a harder time vs an Egoist. "Your puny strength is now mine to control!" Likewise, the brick's also going to have a 'fun' time versus a flying energy projector. "I'm 20 inches away from the brick. I blast him despite the range modifier." The martial artist can do things the brick can't, like bypassing the brick's high PD with a Nerve Strike. Also, with more Damage Classes, it's awfully humiliating for a brick to be grabbed & held from behind by a 'puny' martial artist who's DC gives him a 50 or 60 Str to hold onto.

 

I have not had any problems with martial artists vs bricks and have found the generally bricks have a hard time with martial artists because of the versatility of the martial manuevers. Let's not forget the normal Dodge is +3 to DCV versus the Martial Dodge which is +5 to DCV. While the brick is spending points pumping up his statistics, the martial artist is gaining quite a wide range of skills & stats, i.e. martial manuevers, DC's, skill levels, generally higher Dex, Speed and often Ego (so there you Egoist). Also, if your GM allows it, levels can be used to increase your martial artist's DC. Don't forget about Sequenced Attacks..

[JmOz]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

If we're going to start segmenting types of characters' date=' then the brick-type is going to theoretically have a harder time vs an Egoist. [i']"Your puny strength is now mine to control!"[/i] Likewise, the brick's also going to have a 'fun' time versus a flying energy projector. "I'm 20 inches away from the brick. I blast him despite the range modifier." The martial artist can do things the brick can't, like bypassing the brick's high PD with a Nerve Strike. Also, with more Damage Classes, it's awfully humiliating for a brick to be grabbed & held from behind by a 'puny' martial artist who's DC gives him a 50 or 60 Str to hold onto.

 

I have not had any problems with martial artists vs bricks and have found the generally bricks have a hard time with martial artists because of the versatility of the martial manuevers. Let's not forget the normal Dodge is +3 to DCV versus the Martial Dodge which is +5 to DCV. While the brick is spending points pumping up his statistics, the martial artist is gaining quite a wide range of skills & stats, i.e. martial manuevers, DC's, skill levels, generally higher Dex, Speed and often Ego (so there you Egoist). Also, if your GM allows it, levels can be used to increase your martial artist's DC. Don't forget about Sequenced Attacks..

 

 

The biggest advantage a MA has is CSL's

 

3 points per level

 

Many GM's IME will allow you to use the bonus DCV vs both Melee & Range (In refrence to champions games)

 

Gives you a flexibility that you can only duplicate with a MP

[Zed-F]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

I'd rather buy some STR and a multipower of HAs and other goodies... but that's just me.

[Gary]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

There's absolutely no reason why a brick can't buy base martial arts and just as high Dex/Spd as the MA. Except that many/most GMs limit Dex/Spd for bricks for game balance reasons.

[Gary]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Here's a repost of a previous post I've made:

 

We can even out most of the differences mathematically between Str and DC. Assuming that the MA is going to buy up his PD, we get the following:

 

+10 Str 0 End after selling back 5 Stun costs 10 pts.

 

You get +2d6 damage, +2 Rec, +2" Leap, X4 lift (thus allowing for limited area effects from picking up large objects), +5 Casual Str (a limited Damage Shield).

 

+2 MA DCs +2 PD costs 10 pts and gives you:

 

+2d6 damage, ability to add to Martial Flashes, NNDs, and KAs. However Grabs are less efficient since you can only add to Str for purposes of holding on, not for damage unlike real Str.

 

I think any objective look at this shows that the Str is a much better deal. Especially since you don't have to buy it down to 0 End, whereas it's built into the MA DCs cost already.

[Susano]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

I have no problem with super-strength martial artists. NINJA HERO should prove that (Wong Fei Hong -- 25 STR, Kayli the Destroyer -- 30 STR, the evil eunuch -- 35 STR, the heroic swordsman -- 25 STR), and so on. The martial artists in DRAGONBALL have STRs of 30-50, as so many such characters in other anime and HK wuxia films. Heck, look at the Beast from KUNG FU HUSTLE!

[tesuji]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

What I'm going to bring up here is this: besides genre conventions (or common sense, your pick) why aren't the MAs buying a limited form of Strength like "Does not add to lifting or leaping ability (-1/4)"?

 

Read "characteristics" under the powers section.

 

if a lim is placed on a primary characteristic, you ONLY get the free figs for figs that the lim also limits.

 

PD, REc and stun are not used for lifting or jumping, so the limit doesn't apply to them, so BY DEFAULT any strength bought that way would provide zip, nada. nil pts in figs.

 

Now, by counter example, if you wanted to give your martial artist a mystic amulet of strength with "-1/4 iif" then you would get the free figs and continue as you mention.

 

Sure, whehn looking at dice vs dice with end, DCs look good compared to str, but most of the time if you are buying stun and rec and pd, you could go ahead and practically pay for the amulet with savings off the figs and then look at even more DCs.

 

But iirc, there might be a few advantages to DCs in that aren't their some martial maneuvers which don't use str at all, like the NND which DCs would increase but str would not, maybe?

[Mentor]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

STR may well be the "better deal" but it is not always in concept. If your character concept is a little old man Master of Sinanju or Teenage Whirlwind Girl, then the 40 STR is bogus. The numerous attempts by players to build the most efficient combatant and then sloppily paint a sort of personality on them, claiminig that its the concept they had all along have failed dismally.

[Silbeg]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

I have no problem with super-strength martial artists. NINJA HERO should prove that (Wong Fei Hong -- 25 STR' date=' Kayli the Destroyer -- 30 STR, the evil eunuch -- 35 STR, the heroic swordsman -- 25 STR), and so on. The martial artists in DRAGONBALL have STRs of 30-50, as so many such characters in other anime and HK wuxia films. Heck, look at the Beast from KUNG FU HUSTLE![/quote']

 

Depending on genre, a 25-30 STR may not even be considered "Super-Strength". In fact, according to the chart in Champions, it wouldn't be super until over 30. Exceptional, yes, but not "super".

 

Also consider, that if you are basing what a superhuman is on the "Normal Characteristic Maxima", a martial artist who is well-trained, but not "super", shouldn't have a DEX above 20, a SPD above 4, etc... How many SPD 4 Champions martial artists have you seen?

 

Look at the whole package...

 

Typical Brick:

STR: 60

DEX: 18

PD/ED: 28/25

SPD: 4

STUN: 50

OCV*: 6

DCV*: 6

DC: 12

 

Typical Martial Artist:STR: 20

DEX: 26

PD/ED: 15/15

SPD: 6

STUN: 35

OCV*: 9-11

DCV*: 10-12

DC**: 6-10

 

*No CSLs, but including Maneuver bonus

** Assume to MA/DC's, to get them in the range

 

Note that these may not be typical for your campaign, but are used for demonstration purposes. For this, I am assume a pretty generic Martial Art... no "fancy" maneuvers.

 

Now, given both characters are reasonably intelligent, they fight well.

The martial artist will has 2 extra actions, which will likely be used for defensive maneuvers, but maybe not.

 

Assuming a Martial Strike maneuver (OCV +0/DCV +2/+2DC), the MA will hit the brick about 90% of the time, doing, on average 28 STUN per shot, which will probably not do anything to the brick. He will do this twice more in a turn than the brick, so will, on average, be doing some damage.

 

However, the Brick's chances are not so rosy. His OCV 6 vs. the MA's DCV 11 means he only hits on a 5-, or only about a 5% chance of hitting. Granted, if he hits, he will do, on average, 42 STUN, with 27 penetrating the MA's defenses (probably STUNing him).

 

Now, you would argue that with levels, this disparity goes away.

Assume each character spends about 12 points on CSLs. The Brick buys +2 w/ HtH Combat, and +1 with Punch (his main atttack). The MA buys +4 with his Martial Art.

 

Since the Brick knows he needs to hit, he puts all three levels into OCV, raising it to a 9. If the MA does nothing differently, he is still only at DCV 11, so is hit on a 9-, so about a 40% chance. Of course, the MA can block that shot (with a Martial Block) with an OCV of 15, or on a 17- (99% of the time).

 

Now the fight has the martial artist blocking for 4 phases, and then on the other two phases, using his Sacrifice Stike (a far better maneuver than Offensive Strike), with an OCV of 11, and 4 levels put into increasing the damage by 6 STUN. He still hits on a 14- (90% of the time), but now does 10d6+6, or an average of 41 STUN/shot... this does the brick 13 STUN per attack, or 26 for the turn.

 

Well, this is going to be a long fight, and in this case, will probably be won by the fact that the MA is using only 8 END/turn (4 blocks for 1END each, 2 attacks for 2END each), while the Brick will be burning 24 END/turn (4 attacks at 6 END each). Ok, it will still be a long fight, and a lucky shot may get through... but...

 

Now, having said all of that, I know it doesn't really address the issue of STR being a better buy for Martial Artists than DCs, or whatever. However, what I was trying to illustrate is that they don't need more than a couple of DCs to be effective... tactics are just so much more important to a martial artist.

[Silbeg]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

STR may well be the "better deal" but it is not always in concept. If your character concept is a little old man Master of Sinanju or Teenage Whirlwind Girl' date=' then the 40 STR is bogus. The numerous attempts by players to build the most efficient combatant and then sloppily paint a sort of personality on them, claiminig that its the concept they had all along have failed dismally.[/quote']

 

Exactly!!!

[Susano]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

STR may well be the "better deal" but it is not always in concept. If your character concept is a little old man Master of Sinanju or Teenage Whirlwind Girl' date=' then the 40 STR is bogus. The numerous attempts by players to build the most efficient combatant and then sloppily paint a sort of personality on them, claiminig that its the concept they had all along have failed dismally.[/quote']

 

This is most certainly true, and the best way to build any character. Go by concept, not "points efficiency."

[Gary]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

STR may well be the "better deal" but it is not always in concept. If your character concept is a little old man Master of Sinanju or Teenage Whirlwind Girl' date=' then the 40 STR is bogus. The numerous attempts by players to build the most efficient combatant and then sloppily paint a sort of personality on them, claiminig that its the concept they had all along have failed dismally.[/quote']

 

 

Chiun has at least a 40 Str.

[Fox1]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

This is most certainly true' date=' and the best way to build any character. Go by concept, not "points efficiency."[/quote']

 

Very much so.

 

If the build is too efficient mechanically, that's grounds right there to reject the character IMO.

[Guest C--]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Very much so.

 

If the build is too efficient mechanically, that's grounds right there to reject the character IMO.

 

Not in my opinion. Spider-Man is a very efficient build.

[Mentor]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Chiun has at least a 40 Str.

And at least 750 character points to build according to all of the powers attributed in the book, thus I did not use Cheun by name. An Master of Sinanju who uses his intimate knowledge of Sinanju, human physiology, and his mind over matter does not depend on STR to do his damage. This is even suggested in 5ER by the END and Knockback rules.

[Fox1]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

Not in my opinion. Spider-Man is a very efficient build.

 

That may be the reason I don't let anyone run him in my Marvel campaigns.

 

That and the fact that he should be solo hero...

[Gary]

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

 

And at least 750 character points to build according to all of the powers attributed in the book' date=' thus I did not use Cheun by name. An Master of Sinanju who uses his intimate knowledge of Sinanju, human physiology, and his mind over matter does not depend on STR to do his damage. This is even suggested in 5ER by the END and Knockback rules.[/quote']

 

 

Nope, Masters of Sinanju are actually much stronger than normal humans by far. They can lift cars, leap great distances, and throw objects much further than someone with 10 Str and +6 DC could. Even early Remo could do so. This is suggested by the actual source material which states that Masters of Sinanju are far stronger than normal humans.