Mental Martial Arts

[JmOz]

I had an interesting idea last night as I drifted to the realms of morphius

 

Simply put, what about using martial arts with mental powers?

 

First thought is that you would use the ranged MA instead of melee.

 

Target falls would indicate that they were momentarily disorientated instead of a litteral fall (probably resisted with something other than breakfall)

 

v/x damage would be inappropriate probebly

 

I could see allowing some hand to hand as well (Specificaly Dodge, but have it add to EDCV instead, maybe block...)

[Edsel]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I've read something about this concept before, perhaps it was mentioned in the old Cyber Hero rules. At work right now so I can't check it out. It sounds like a good idea for a Matrix-style game.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I see no problems with Mental MA at all. In the JLA run of a few years back the Batman of the far future used Mental Martial Arts (in an MPA with a physical strike no less!).

 

Now, the question begs was he using true mental powers bought as a kind of training (Mental MA) or was he buying Mental MA to use *with* mental powers. I would go with the fun side and say the former.

 

Strikes, Offensive Strikes, Grabs and even throws should be available for the PC with the right armamentarium of mental abilities. Typically no less than Ego Blast, Telekinesis, and Mind Control/Illusions. These three powers would form the lynchpins of a style of MA that enabled the PC to adeptly manipulate his opponents in a very -jutsu way.

 

The trick would be creating a -do style.

 

Hawksmoor

[Old Man]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I agree, easily done without any kind of rule bending.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I absolutely love the concept behind "mental martial arts" but have yet to find or create rules I feel blend nicely with the rest of Hero System. Either it's giving too much power away, or selling everything short, and neither of those is good in the long run. The idea I have right now is to consider each Mental Power (or Power with BOECV) a Weapon Element for a style and becomes affected by any given maneuver's modifiers. This works kinda nice when all you are using are Martial Strike and similar normal damage attacks. Things like Grab, Killing Strike and Martial Throw get really complicated. What does a Martial Grab do when perform with an Ego Attack or Telepathy? Is it fair to allow a Mental Power to reduce a target to a prone status just because the attacker pays an extra 3 points?

 

The thing is, Martial Arts are all based on STR, and STR does a lot of things normally. It can grab, throw, punch, etc. Mental stuff can't normally do these things, and neither can any Mental Power (although Ego Attack does do STUN damage). This is the problem I have with using actual Martial Arts maneuvers for mental martial arts. If a solution to this can be found or worked out I'd be thrilled!

[Vondy]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

The original ultimate mentalist had maneuvers for martial artists (including some cool skill variants).

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Something rather similar to this was done for The Ultimate Mentalist (the original manuscript, IIRC, with the section being cut out and replaced with something of Steve Peterson's creation).

 

Hopefully some bits on "Mental Martial Arts" will appear in the redux of TUM.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day.

 

I was planning to "rework" the Mind-to-Mind techniques and maneuvers from the 4th edition UMA to something more.....workable....perhaps I'll post what I come up with in this thread.

[Mister E]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Would you possably consider Psilock's psi-blade to be an example of Martial Arts enhancing Mental Power's, or are you thinking more totally in the psionic realm?

[Gary]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I'd be leery of something like Mental Offensive Strike that adds 4d6 Mind Control or Mental Illusions, or 2d6 Ego Blast. Most mentallists usually won't mind taking a -2 ECV penalty to hit a typical character.

 

Hmm, one idea for Mental Martial Arts might be to allow it as normal, but the 'maneuvers' only work against other mentallists, or characters with Mental Awareness. That should keep it useful without being too overpowering...

[JmOz]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I'd be leery of something like Mental Offensive Strike that adds 4d6 Mind Control or Mental Illusions, or 2d6 Ego Blast. Most mentallists usually won't mind taking a -2 ECV penalty to hit a typical character.

 

Hmm, one idea for Mental Martial Arts might be to allow it as normal, but the 'maneuvers' only work against other mentallists, or characters with Mental Awareness. That should keep it useful without being too overpowering...

 

What I am thinking right now is that just adding a number of CSL's to the MP, then the character can fluctuate between higher EOCV's & EDCV's & Higher effects

 

I was thinking mostly of with in the PSI realm, basicaly the idea of you are a weak mentalist but you know what you are doing EXTREMLY Well

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

I'd be leery of something like Mental Offensive Strike that adds 4d6 Mind Control or Mental Illusions, or 2d6 Ego Blast. Most mentallists usually won't mind taking a -2 ECV penalty to hit a typical character.

 

Hmm, one idea for Mental Martial Arts might be to allow it as normal, but the 'maneuvers' only work against other mentallists, or characters with Mental Awareness. That should keep it useful without being too overpowering...

 

That's how it worked in the 4th ed Ultimate Mentalist, and frankly it sucked. Balanced, sure, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that I shred the mind of my equal, but I can only poke at the puny masses.

 

This is one of the faults in those rules that I'd like to fix or overcome in some way, and make such maneuvers universally effective, like normal martial maneuvers are (martial artists can attack non martial artists as well as other martial artists).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Would you possably consider Psilock's psi-blade to be an example of Martial Arts enhancing Mental Power's' date=' or are you thinking more totally in the psionic realm?[/quote']

 

Since her psi-blade had to make physical contact with the target, I think it's along the lines of an Energy Blast - AVLD (Mental Defense; +1½) - No Range(-½), which is used in a Multiple-Power Attack along with her Martial Arts.

 

But from what I recall, when she hits with it, the target doesn't seem to be also taking the effects of a Martial/Offensive Strike. So it could be that the Martial Arts just gets her "into position" to use the psi-blade, which is used by itself.

 

If it's used by itself, it could be an Ego Attack - No Range(-½).

[Kyle A.]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Heres a question thats only slightly on topic. Would you allow a character with TK and a martial art to buy a weapon element to let them use their MA with their TK? If not like that how would you allow it?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Heres a question thats only slightly on topic. Would you allow a character with TK and a martial art to buy a weapon element to let them use their MA with their TK? If not like that how would you allow it?

 

Do you mean Mental Samurai has WF: Blades and WE: Blades and TK with Fine Manipulation and would I allow him to skewer the Elbow Ninja mooks at range with his Spirit Katana?

 

Yes! TK just subsitutes for his real STR and IMO his EGO replaces DEX as the CV base.

 

Or do you mean Mental Titan has 10 points of Manuvers defined as Psi-Fu and you want to add WE: Telekinesis to his manuvers?

 

Trickier. MAs are *one* of the things that I regulate highly simply because of their great utility and low cost (most characters have CSL not MA). Thus if I allowed the purchase, I would suggest the PC have a way to use the manuver with a powerset before purchasing the manuver. For instance a Throw manuver should have a basis of either TK or oddly Mind Control/Illusion to purchase a manuver with a throw mechanic since the character needs a way to manipulate the opponent.

 

Did that answer the question?

 

Hawksmoor

[Kyle A.]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Both of those are sort of what I ment and sort of not. Lets say I know Karate and I have TK. Would you allow me to buy a weapon element for TK and then allow me to use my Karate with it? Just WE: Telekinesis, not Telekinesis and blades or some such. Basicly would you allow a player to use TK with normal martial arts if they bought a weapon element for it?

[Kyle A.]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Also remember that the power Telekinesis use OCV to hit its not a mental power its a standard power.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Hmmm....

 

Yes.

 

But, that is because I game on the principle of Yes. If the character had a good reason for doing it I would see no reason he could not combine his TK with MA just like I could see no reason a character with Desolidification would not, or a Teleporter.

The character in question has paid points to add capability and utility, thus he gets to do neat things.

 

Would I require WE: TK? That depends if the MA are to be used Mentally or Physically.

Unless the character in question had acquired *multiple* Martial Arts styles then saying that I know Psi Fu and the Dergerberg Blend (a Jeet Kun Do style) would stipulate at least the purchase of TK *or* Empty Hand as a Weapon Element for the Martial Arts skills you acquire.

 

As to the nature of TK and the use of OCV or ECV to *target* the power. I started a thread a while back that addressed this issue. I am lousy at crosslinking threads but a search should bring it up. I posited that since the genre materials are rife with characters that use TK as a mental ability that the Combat Value used to hit the target be calculated on EGO and not DEX as a +0 Advantage. Most posters agreed with me that the concept was not unbalancing and would fit the +0 model since the advantages equaled the drawbacks of using EGO instead of DEX to Target especially since DEX based DCV would apply.

 

Hawksmoor

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Hmmm....

 

 

As to the nature of TK and the use of OCV or ECV to *target* the power. I started a thread a while back that addressed this issue. I am lousy at crosslinking threads but a search should bring it up. I posited that since the genre materials are rife with characters that use TK as a mental ability that the Combat Value used to hit the target be calculated on EGO and not DEX as a +0 Advantage. Most posters agreed with me that the concept was not unbalancing and would fit the +0 model since the advantages equaled the drawbacks of using EGO instead of DEX to Target especially since DEX based DCV would apply.

 

Hawksmoor

 

I've used that same option for years. It works great.

 

Most of the characters in my games that posses Tk, usually have the SFX of classic Telekinesis, so I allow them to use ECV (to target an opponents DCV) instead of OCV. But they must choose this when designing the character of course. (In my Star Hero games, Psionic TK defaults to ECV. I don't give the players a choice)

[Nevenall]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

In my Jedi Academy campaign TK is an EGO based attack roll versus DECV, but it's also bought with Based on ECV.

Characters can buy standard and martial arts maneuvers specifically for TK, but I rule that they are seperate from DEX based martial arts because they are based on a different attack roll.

So, I wouldn't allow you buy a TK Weapon Element for a DEX based martial art, or a DEX based Weapon Element, like Blades, for TK Martial Arts, but I'm cruel that way.

To me it is like the difference between ranged MA maneuvers, and Hand to Hand ones. As far as I know you can't buy weapon elements from one to the other, but you can buy both types as one MA Style for the purposes of CSLs and Extra Damage Classes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

To me it is reasonable to require BOECV for TK that uses OECV to target, though maybe at a very slightly reduced value (say 1/4 less) in campaigns that are not mentalist heavy (since in games where mentalists are rare, DCV and physical CSLs are likely to be higher than DECV and mental CSLs). You get a lot from being able to use OECV to target: LOS with no Range Modifier, the ability to target through Mind Scan, the choice of PD/ED or MD as a defense, etc.

 

Besides, in most heroic games that use psionics or magic, it probably makes sense for this Power to be somewhat expensive.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Pres,

 

You are going too far with the benefits. Simple replacement of Dex based CV for Ego Based CV is all I advocate. Range Mods and all that still apply.

 

Hawksmoor

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mental Martial Arts

 

Pres,

 

You are going too far with the benefits. Simple replacement of Dex based CV for Ego Based CV is all I advocate. Range Mods and all that still apply.

Huh. An attack that is based on ECV but isn't LOS and is still subject to the Range Modifier? Interesting. I'm not sure it makes much sense conceptually, but I guess I could see that as somewhat reasonable at a +0.

 

Ego is a bit less expensive than Dex, so a mentalist is likely to have a really high OECV (but characters in a game that is not heavy on mentalists are likely to have a--relatively--low DECV), but I'm not sure how far this should be taken into consideration. It may be splitting hairs.