Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

[Starlord]

In another thread, there was a discussion about the fact that there a great deal of cons involved in a company creating an 'official' campaign world, specifically the Champions Universe. I was told that this has been hotly debated but I must have missed those debates. In my opinion, the CU is just a big book of suggestions and ideas for my own campaign and/or a basic framework for I and other GMs to run their own campaign from. I see it as being nothing but positive. What am I missing here? Can someone please identify the large number of negatives that I am not seeing/understanding?

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

In another thread' date=' there was a discussion about the fact that there a great deal of cons involved in a company creating an 'official' campaign world, specifically the Champions Universe. [/quote']

 

The issue is not in creating a "official campaign" world. There are no cons to that which I'd consider significant.

 

It's creating such a world and then officially altering it by advancing its history according the plots of the game designers. Case in point- killing off members of Eurostar between 4E and 5E.

 

The concept applied to game lines is called Metaplots.

 

They didn’t' really exist to a significant degree in HERO until 5th edition. Given that HERO is still rather stagnant in it’s setting, it still only exists to a minor degree but is now visible.

 

They've been a big feature of games like from White Wolf, Shadowrun and other companies for years.

 

To see the debates on them go to various websites concerned with them and search on the term "metaplot". And prepare to see flames. There are people strongly for and against.

 

Myself, I'm against.

 

 

Edit: Pity Rpg.net search is down, that would have been a good site to look over some threads. Since I hate metaplots, I don't know of sites focused on game systems that use them.

[Hermit]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Well, I would say HERO 5th is a total reboot, the history of the 4th and preceding editions can't be taken into account for the 5th setting, though obviously, many of the same characters have been reintroduced in one way or another.

 

Now the 4th Ed setting did 'update' some things from itself and previous editions IIRC. Sanctuary was moved from a building stateside to its own island ("Neutral Ground" to "Classic Organizations" I think), and so on. So in a sense, 'official setting changes' aren't new even for HERO.

 

I myself don't really think its a bad thing. Almost every HERO setting book I've read stresses that the GM should feel free to pick and choose etc.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Edit: Pity Rpg.net search is down, that would have been a good site to look over some threads. Since I hate metaplots, I don't know of sites focused on game systems that use them.

It's actually not down, it's disabled for the foreseeable future. The Mods and admistrators said it took too much of the capacity from the boards and was causing slowdown.

 

 

To the main question -

 

Cons of official universe - Metaplot (if it exists).

 

Tone - if you don't like the tone of the oficcial universe then supplements supporting that tone are of less you to you (I am in this boat with the 5th ed CU - I like a number of details but the overall tone just doesn't fit my playstyle). If there is not official universe then each piece of support stands on its own that way. Clown and Voice can co-exists - where if a specific game universe is going for a particualr tone they might not.

 

Cons of non official - no connection between characters and background in the supplements - now in 4th I was a master of making them for my campaign. 5th does it for me - which can be good or bad depending on your approach (see tone above).

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

I use a modified version of the Champions Universe. Thus, I get the best of both worlds. Use what I like and discard the rest. I do my own updates of 4th edition characters I like that haven't been officially updated. If they "officially" update them later, I compare the two versions and use the one I like best. Not much of a debate here really. You don't like something...you don't use it.

 

Rob

[teh bunneh]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

I suspect that it's like what Fox1 said, in that an official universe can be a "moving target."

 

F'rinstance, someone picks up the main 7th Sea book and decides to play a pious, spiritual, close-to-God magic user. Two supplements later, you learn that all magic in the 7th Sea universe comes from Legion (the devil), so your character concept is now null and void (or at least, in serious need of tweaking).

 

You can of course ignore the official source material (and many people do!), but in those games with a strong meta-plot component to their official universe can make it really hard for the players to make legit characters, and for the GM to come up with plots. But YMMV.

 

Bill.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

And of the big advantage to using an official published setting is that it enables you players to also be very familiar with the setting. (Whenever I use complaetely origianl "homebrew" settings I never seem to quite get around to getting enough of on paper for the player to start the campaign as familiar with the world as their character should be).

 

I'm looking to start up a Champions game at my local game shop and it will most definitely be set in the official Champions Universe (particularly since part of the reason for running the campaign will be to help promote the Hero System and Hero Games products in the Triad).

[Guzalot]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

I use a modified version of the Champions Universe. Thus, I get the best of both worlds. Use what I like and discard the rest. I do my own updates of 4th edition characters I like that haven't been officially updated. If they "officially" update them later, I compare the two versions and use the one I like best. Not much of a debate here really. You don't like something...you don't use it.

 

Rob

Same here. I use what I like and discard or alter the rest to fit my campaign. Alot can be said for making your own truly unique world but it takes more work than I'm willing to do. As it is, I really like the CU and it works for my game (with some tweaking, of course).

[Watchdog]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

I think that there are different levels of "metaplotting".

 

I don't think that having a couple of characters killed off from a supervillain group is major metaplotting. I don't think that they're preventing you from using those characters in a 5th edition format, any more than they're preventing you from using any 4th edition character that hasn't been killed, and just simply hasn't appeared in a 5th edition format.

 

However, I can think of instances of major metaplotting in other games that could have much greater repercussions in a campaign world.

 

Let's use Shadowrun, since that was one of the games that Fox mentioned. There was a very powerful dragon called Dunklezahn that was a major player in most campaign worlds. There was even an adventure module where he ran for president.

 

But he ended up being assassinated in very mysterious circumstances. While Shadowrun has a "chatter" feature in their books that can allow a GM to intrepret what actually happened (Who really killed him? Did he fake his own death to go into hiding? etc.) it still had a great effect on the canon campaign world - to the point of having several published adventures dealing with the aftermath of his demise.

 

Now if, in a GM's campaign, Dunklezahn is alive and well and publicly active, this puts him into a bit of a quandry. Of course, he's not obligated to change his campaign to fit the canon universe of SR. But for something this big, it's going to mean he'll have to make more and more changes to make the published sourcebooks/adventures fit his own world. That can lead to more time and effort than some GMs are able to spare.

 

To put it in Champions context, it would be like killing off Dr. Destroyer in the canon universe, and having the next several adventures and sourcebooks showing all the changes that happened to the world as a result. That could certainly spark some debate.

 

Having said that, I don't think a couple of roster changes in one villain group rises to that level of campaign disruption.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

F'rinstance' date=' someone picks up the main 7th Sea book and decides to play a pious, spiritual, close-to-God magic user. Two supplements later, you learn that all magic in the 7th Sea universe comes from Legion (the devil), so your character concept is now null and void (or at least, in serious need of tweaking). [/quote']

 

This is a good example of the problem.

 

Even simple things like killing off eurostar members can have an affect. If the ongoing campaign had these characters front and center- the coming of 5th edition causes them significant problems.

 

They can of course put the characters back in. But they are no longer playing the official CU.

 

A small change. Some work converting old characters to 5th edition with it's new standards. The fact that every time the characters appear to a new player you have to run through "Well, in our campaign..."

 

Then comes the next thing, and the next thing, and soon you're left with what may as well been a whole cloth creation anyway. All the advantages of using a published setting lost as you spend more effort explain the differences than you would in explaining a homegrown setting.

 

The other option left people is to alter their campaign match the new CU material. Some people hate retcons in comics and some hate them in games as well. SoD can be wrecked. Campaigns can be dropped.

[Watchdog]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

A small change. Some work converting old characters to 5th edition with it's new standards. The fact that every time the characters appear to a new player you have to run through "Well, in our campaign..."

 

Then comes the next thing, and the next thing, and soon you're left with what may as well been a whole cloth creation anyway. All the advantages of using a published setting lost as you spend more effort explain the differences than you would in explaining a homegrown setting.

 

 

But changes between any home campaign and the CU are inevitable, because even if every campaign played the same adventure scenarios, the decisions, actions, and results of the players will influence the campaign world. Many of these results won't be a part of future CU material. If this happens to several different characters, locations, etc., does that mean that all the advantages of using a published setting are lost? Imo, that's a pretty gross overstatement.

 

Here's an example from my own Dark Champions campaign. A minor character in the Shadows in the City sourcebook, attorney Camden Brown, has become a major player in Hudson City politics - to the point where he's running for mayor. If he beats the incumbent Ulmstead, it's going to mean a lot of changes to Hudson City, from politics to business to organized crime. But even a dozen changes on that magnitude wouldn't make Justice, Not Law or the 5th ed Hudson City book not worth having.

 

If I was a new player, I would hope that the GM would need to take some time to say "In our campaign..." Otherwise, I'd be wondering exactly what his characters had been doing.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

But changes between any home campaign and the CU are inevitable

 

No they aren't, not of the type I'm concerned with anyway.

 

If all the CU produced material referenced a specific undefined starting point, and didn't conflict with each other or advance time- there is no metaplot to come into conflict with. The live or dead status of the members of eurostar completely upon what happens in the campaign, not the whims of the game writers.

 

This is basically (with a few minor exceptions) how HERO was done until 5th edition.

 

Difference will of course be created in play as a result of the on going campaign. But those are natural differences which result from play, not imposed ones that suddenly require the players to up and change things (bet that change their campaign or change the setting).

 

Basically it's a ownership issue.

 

Did HERO give us a setting that we own after day 1, or did they create their own storyline that we either conform to or can no longer use as given.

 

It used to be the former, and now it's becoming the second.

 

 

 

A note is need (but I bit it will be ignored0: I'm really speakng of metaplots in general. I don't give a rat's behind about the CU and have never used it. Personally it's no skin off my nose. I comment only because I dislike metaplots and as I said- it's another reason to add to my own for staying away from CU products.

[MitchellS]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

For some reason some of you have a hard time understanding that the 5E CU is not an extension of the 4E version. It's more like Earth-B to the old Earth-A. It has a different history, different villains, different heroes, and a different approach. Yes there are some things which are similar but they have been slightly altered in this Earth-B.

 

What Eurostar [or anyone else for that matter] was in 4E has nothing to do with what they are in 5E. The history portrayed for these new 5E characters is not what happen to them after 4E stopped being published. It is what happen in the 5E universe prior to any books being published. It is just historical content like saying Columbus discovered America in 1492.

 

The history is provided for gamers who want to play in different eras [Golden age, silver, early bronze, etc.]. The history is not there to tell you what happen to Eurostar after Classic Enemies was published.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

For some reason some of you have a hard time understanding that the 5E CU is not an extension of the 4E version.

 

For some reason some of your have a hard time understanding that this point just doesn't matter.

 

For people playing in 4E campaigns, they still have the same choices to make, extension or not. Continue with what they are doing and ignore 5E, or conform.

[MitchellS]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

For some reason some of your have a hard time understanding that this point just doesn't matter.

 

For people playing in 4E campaigns, they still have the same choices to make, extension or not. Continue with what they are doing and ignore 5E, or conform.

It's not a question of conforming. It's a question of playing 4E of 5E. I know many people who still play 4E CU. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and telling them they must now only play in the 5E CU. As a matter of fact I would bet that most people just use the CU villains in their homebrew worlds however they want, not even caring they are part of a CU.

 

You're making mountains out of mole hills here just for a reason to argue. This, to me, is odd considering you don't buy any CU product so it doesn't seem like you should care how it's produced. It would be like me here arguing about how the Scarred Lands works when I have never read a single product about it.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

It's not a question of conforming. It's a question of playing 4E of 5E..

 

What does the person who likes 5E rules but the 4E setting do? Lots of work converting assuming he cares about point values and following rules.

 

Why?

 

Because someone decided to change the setting. Doesn't seem to be the right way to treat your old customers to me.

 

Nor does losing sales to them seem to be the right way to make a buck.

 

Let's Hope they made new customers with the changes. At least that way they made some net money.

 

You're making mountains out of mole hills here just for a reason to argue. This' date=' to me, is odd considering you don't buy any CU product so it doesn't seem like you should care how it's produced.[/quote']

 

I just stated I hate metaplots (and by extension settin reboots if that's what 5E is), it's others who found in that a reason to argue. It's not like I started a thread on the subject.

 

As for it being odd... people can't have reasons for not liking stuff they don't buy? I'd suggest that it may be you who's being a bit odd here.

[MitchellS]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Back to the original question, I personally wish the CU was a little tighter in continuity and meta-plots. I would like the CU is a living, breathing, and evolving place. I try to envision a comic book environment when I'm gaming. I like to have an idea of what the Sentinels or Justice Squardron are doing. That's probably because my gaming style is to have a great number of plots slowly unraveling, and knowing what's going on in the rest of the game world only adds spice to that, IMO.

 

I personally would like to see DH updates on what is going on with the other supers in the Champions Universe. These types of things can be used as news briefs in someone's CU game or use as a plot seed for something you might like to run for the players. Little details go a long way, IMO.

 

I don't think DOJ should meta-plot to the point where it tells you about "official" villains who have died or changed [those things should be left to the GM's] but it would be interesting to read how the Sentinels couldn't save the life of the villainess Jamboree, who was seeking revenge against VIPER for a caper gone bad. Using unknown villains in that capacity only adds flavor to the CU. It also sparks some interest in wanting to see who these villains the Sentinels are fighting are.

 

Meta-plots which add to the CU without taking anything away from the players is very appealing to me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

What does the person who likes 5E rules but the 4E setting do? Lots of work converting assuming he cares about point values and following rules.

What does the person who plays in a homebrew 4E world do under the same circumstance? He converts and keeps playing. Simple. You can't hold DOJ responsible for every change they make to bring the game into line with how they want it to be.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

What does the person who plays in a homebrew 4E world do under the same circumstance? He converts and keeps playing.

 

Since he's homebrew, he's already made the decision to do extra work.

 

Something that those using the CU thought they were avoiding.

[MitchellS]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Since he's homebrew, he's already made the decision to do extra work.

 

Something that those using the CU thought they were avoiding.

Sorry, but nowhere does it say that the 5E CU is an extension of the 4E CU. Nowhere. All anyone needs to do is look at the characters in the back of Champions to see that the 5E world is not your father's Champions Universe. On top of that it's ludicrous to assume that DOJ, or any publisher, would continue on with a universe which has been out of print for, at that time, some 10 years.

 

You think DOJ should have just picked up right were the 4E CU left off in 1992 without some changes? Be real. Concepts change in a decade. Entire gaming precepts are different now. The comic book genre has evolved from the early bronze to iron age in that time period. Most of those original concepts would only seem dated and stagnant now. Any publisher would be foolish to not attempt to change them. Want an example? Look at what's going on in DC comics right now.

[Watchdog]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

 

If all the CU produced material referenced a specific undefined starting point, and didn't conflict with each other or advance time- there is no metaplot to come into conflict with.

 

Taken to this extreme, I think there would be a danger of really hamstringing the writers of future adventures and sourcebook material. How far are you willing to go with this?

 

If you ran DOJ, and a really good adventure was submitted that involved a supervillain leading an escape from Stronghold, and that particular villain's presence was germane, if not essential, to the plot, would you nix it because in the character's original published description, it said that he had "never been captured"? Writing a little backstory about how he was captured prior to this adventure would be unacceptable?

 

And the further we go into the future, and more products are published, I think the harder it is to get around your desire for CU material to not advance time. Real world changes and time passage could affect writeups of various characters and locations. If you don't reflect those changes to at least some degree, I think you risk stagnation.

 

 

 

Basically it's a ownership issue.

 

Did HERO give us a setting that we own after day 1, or did they create their own storyline that we either conform to or can no longer use as given.

 

It used to be the former, and now it's becoming the second.

 

I haven't liked all of the changes made in the CU in 5th edition. I didn't like the changes in the "core" Champions team. I didn't like the changes made to Eurostar (especially the way that Bora, who had 0 END, fully invisible desolidifciation, was taken out by a sniper. What, they shot her while she was eating a pastrami on rye?)

 

But the way I look at it, by them publishing the "updated" versions, I have 3 choices. I can introduce the change immediately into my campaign, as I did with several write-ups. I can decide not to use them, as I did with the Eurostar changes. Or I can decide to gradually introduce them to my campaign - Detroit was just recently destroyed, and Millenium City is years of game time away from completion.

 

If DOJ was prevented from making any kinds of changes between 4th and 5th edition writeups, histories, etc., I lose options 1 and 3. To me, it's worth doing the additional work in picking and choosing which updates I use if it means having more options. YMMV.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Sorry' date=' but nowhere does it say that the 5E CU is an extension of the 4E CU. .[/quote']

 

And again, that doesn't change the choice facing users in one bit.

 

On top of that it's ludicrous to assume that DOJ, or any publisher, would continue on with a universe which has been out of print for, at that time, some 10 years.

 

Yep.

 

No one would make Spiderman movies using the same plot concepts, name and such from a character done in the the 60s. Completely silly. Never happen, they wouldn't make any money. They have to kill that one and use a new character- with claws or something.

 

Hey, wake up. They updated what, 90% of the characters already (not having the product, I actually have no idea- but I see tons of old names in 5E CU posts) and sold them. It wouldn't have killed them to add a couple more.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

Taken to this extreme' date=' I think there would be a danger of really hamstringing the writers of future adventures and sourcebook material. How far are you willing to go with this? [/quote']

 

They are on record as not doing adventures. Waste of time according to them.

 

Instead we get cool history about how their creations changed the world

 

 

Real world changes and time passage could affect writeups of various characters and locations. If you don't reflect those changes to at least some degree, I think you risk stagnation.

 

IMO, it's time to do a whole new setting in that case.

 

However it's plain that CU didn't reach that point. Same names, same core characer concepts in nearly every case. If they hadn't kill off some characters, frankly almost no one would have noticed the differences (besides the fact there was more detail behind it all now).

[Enforcer84]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

So 90% of the work is done for you. The other 10% seems pretty easy for a conversion.

[Fox1]

Re: Pros/Cons of an 'official' campaign world

 

So 90% of the work is done for you. The other 10% seems pretty easy for a conversion.

 

People are so missing the point...

 

No change that. People are so *refusing* to get the point.

 

Time to stop trying.

 

The only important thing to keep from this is that I don't like the CU, how it's contructed, or how it was update. Let everything else just slide off your mind.