Firearms granularity

[atlascott]

I have a friend who I am trying to bring into the fold. He just HAS to have firearms rules which reflect minor differences in caliber and firearm weapon. Any advice?

[HeroGM]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Sarcasam tells me to say "Get a life, it's a game"

 

Do you have Dark Champion's?

[MitchellS]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Sounds too much like flamebait for me. I'm sure Fox1 will be along shortly to work it all out for you.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

I have a friend who I am trying to bring into the fold. He just HAS to have firearms rules which reflect minor differences in caliber and firearm weapon. Any advice?

 

There are many ways of doing this. Some people have extremely complex formulas and methodology. I myself use a Kinetic Energy chart that maps the KE of a weapon to Damage Class equivalents.

 

My suggestion though would be to pick up Dark Champions. I don't have it myself, but I hear that it details all the things your friend is looking for. That should satisfy him. If not (or you don't have the funds) post here again and I'm sure there are others here willing to help you build something workable (including myself)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

as a guy I know who spent time in the army, including comabt, put it:

 

"I don't care what calibur it is, as long as it puts a hole in the enemy."

 

I've noticed that the people who seem the most involved in calibur, ammo type, etc.. for guns have never needed to actually shoot at people.

[HeroGM]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

That's why I asked if Dark Champion's was available. If so then they can use that, or the person intrested in such things can plop down the money and then decide to use it.

 

And not to flame but sorry, poeple like that just bother me. They want to take everything down into a game form and rules layer it to death. I've known people who want to built the Doctor's Tardis on xxx points when all it is is Dimensional movement and special effects, you don't have to sit there anad go "ok, the inside is supposed to be yyy by xxx meters and zzz levels with..." Yeah you can plan it all out if you want to but why? A Tie Fighter in Star Wars goes BOOM when it's hit, you don't always have to come up with exact stats until either the players get in one or you stat passing notes to other GM's.

 

Ok, rant over, sorry.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Let's see, customizing firearms.

 

Here's a brief list of things that distinguish the characteristics of modern firearms in HERO-ish terms:

 

• Amount of RKA damage they do.
  
• Their range (can be increased/ decreased with Advantages/ Limitations).
  
• Single-shot/ Autoloader/ Burst Fire/ Full Automatic Fire.
  
• Loud/ Suppressed/ Silenced.
  
• Magazine/ Cylinder Capacity.
  
• Superior accuracy/ durability/ craftsmanship/ reliability.
  
• Concealability.
  
• Laser/ Scope/ IR/ Nightvision sights.
  
• Bullet penetration (Armor Piercing, "Frangible", Reduced Penetration, etcetera).
  
• Other (special ammunition, bullpup loading mechanism, collapsible, etc).
  

 

Basically, you need to know the specifications for each gun/ ammo type you want to simulate. There're millions of guns out there, of many makes and models: Israeli, African, Italian, German, American, British, Chinese. Decide which guns you want to simulate, then look up their specs on the internet and stat them. Use a basic 9 mm handgun as a "control" (a basic gun to compare the stats of the other guns against).

 

Many guns. Many ammo calibers and types. They CAN be statted in HERO very accurately, but you have to know your shootin' irons and pick your battles (decide which guns to have in your game).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

as a guy I know who spent time in the army, including comabt, put it:

 

"I don't care what calibur it is, as long as it puts a hole in the enemy."

 

I've noticed that the people who seem the most involved in calibur, ammo type, etc.. for guns have never needed to actually shoot at people.

 

The type of gun and its specifications can make or break a mission. I think it's very appropriate to have a wide variety of firearms in every category in certain campaigns. The Army hands the best weapon for the job to its troops -- or the most versatile -- but I think you'll find Special Forces in every branch have a huge selection of guns, even among the pistol category -- for example, the famous SOCOM pistol is just one of many sidearms available for use by the US Navy seals during certain operations.

 

As far as your buddy goes, I'm going to guess he's infantry. A good rifle like the M-16 A2 is all you need there, excluding heavy "punch-packing" firearms such as the Dragon rocket launchers used by the USMC.

 

In case you're wondering, I have been trained in the use of a bevy of military weapons. Sure, I wasn't Army infantry, but even a civilian can figure out that the type of gun is important, depending on the situation. Remember, to put that bullet in your enemy, you have to have the right kind of gun.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

the equipment guide has lots of stuff on guns and customization

[stu2000]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

The firearms damage used to look odd to me, too, in chart form. I would like there to be a wider range of dice for the full range of bullets. But in play, with stun mods and so forth, it's very satisfying. The granularity is less evident in play than it is reading the book. If you can get your guy to trust you for two or three gunfights, I bet he'll be fine with it.

[sinanju]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

That's why I asked if Dark Champion's was available. If so then they can use that, or the person intrested in such things can plop down the money and then decide to use it.

 

And not to flame but sorry, poeple like that just bother me. They want to take everything down into a game form and rules layer it to death. I've known people who want to built the Doctor's Tardis on xxx points when all it is is Dimensional movement and special effects, you don't have to sit there anad go "ok, the inside is supposed to be yyy by xxx meters and zzz levels with..." Yeah you can plan it all out if you want to but why? A Tie Fighter in Star Wars goes BOOM when it's hit, you don't always have to come up with exact stats until either the players get in one or you stat passing notes to other GM's.

 

Ok, rant over, sorry.

 

Amen. Repped! I agree completely. I'm boggled by the number of threads I see here asking how you'd build this, that or the other thing. Most of the time, if I were the GM, I'd simply handwave it as necessary to the plot or "since I'd give the NPC enough points to get the effect I want anyhow, what difference does it make how many points it would take? It's not like he's on a budget!"

 

Which is probably why, though I'm playing a couple of online Champions games, the game I'm _running_ uses Fudge for the game engine.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

as a guy I know who spent time in the army, including comabt, put it:

 

"I don't care what calibur it is, as long as it puts a hole in the enemy."

 

I've noticed that the people who seem the most involved in calibur, ammo type, etc.. for guns have never needed to actually shoot at people.

 

Entirely true. Combat vets have said what they care about is:

 

Reliability. Utility. Accuracy. Weight.

 

Calibre and all those details some gamers like to obsess over are pretty meaningless to people who actually use weapons in combat. Whocares about residual damage when most firefights take place at 50 metres? When the NZ army introduced Steyrs, the details the troopers loved were things like the clear plastic mag, so you could see how much ammo you had left, and the light recoil, so you could get close and accurate grouping. Calibre grains and kinetic energy did not feature high among priorities.

 

As one acquaintance put it (in response to "rabbit gun" comments by FN devotees) was "a 5.56 in the face does a lot more damage than a 7.62 in a nearby tree"

 

Still, in response to the original post, players do love having multiple coices, so I'd echo the earlier posters - get Dark Champions and that will give you a good list of guns and also sundry other useful equipment. I basically bought it myself mostly for the gear list.

 

cheers, Mark

[Fox1]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

I have a friend who I am trying to bring into the fold. He just HAS to have firearms rules which reflect minor differences in caliber and firearm weapon. Any advice?

 

HERO is somewhat limited in granularity due to its EXP progression. However it is still workable with effort.

 

You could check out my website listed in my sig. It's shows more significant differences than the official HERO system rules (including the exceptional poor work in Dark Champions) assuming you're willing to take into account armor effects and stun modifiers as well as base damage.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Hmmm, I'm disappointed in what I've read here.

 

I've seen people telling the original poster his friend shouldn't be so obsessed with ammo types because of Reason A or Reason B. Instead of criticizing someone's likes/ dislikes ("People who want to distinguish between calibers have never been in combat, don't know what they're talking about"), why not try just adding something useful to the thread? Seriously. Each and every one of you who've expounded on how "My friend who was in the Army" or "People who really get into combat don't worry about specifications" are basically flaming/ trolling. Modern infantry gets their weapon handed to them by higher authorities; what do they care what it is, as long as it shoots straight? They get no choice, and aren't even qualified to make that choice. Of course it doesn't matter to them.

 

Not to mention, you're all wrong, at least on a very broad level. There are a wealth of very different kinds of weapons that deserve to be statted simply because they serve a wide variety of purposes. As an example of firearms diversity, a Derringer is quite different from a Mauser 9 mm, and although a TEC-9 and a MAC-10 seem quite similar at first glance, there are important, even crucial, differences between them.

 

In any case, at the very least, about a dozen different weapons may be appropriate for a modern campaign: concealable pistol, pistol, revolver, silenced pistol, heavy pistol, sniper rifle, hunting rifle, antimateriel rifle, assault rifle, submachine gun, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, etcetera. All of those broad categories I mention are very distinct and each can serve very differently in different capacities.

 

In any case, earlier in this thread I made a list of distinctive firearm features and gave some real research recommendations. You may not think much of my efforts, but they're better than criticism of someone's preferences and a lame recommendation of Dark Champions or the Equipment Guide. Seriously, if the best you can do is offer criticism and recommend another HERO book, just stay quiet. No one cares that you think you're wiser/ better/ more knowledgable/ have more Army friends than the OP's friend.

[Fox1]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

as a guy I know who spent time in the army, including comabt, put it:

 

"I don't care what calibur it is, as long as it puts a hole in the enemy."

 

I've noticed that the people who seem the most involved in calibur, ammo type, etc.. for guns have never needed to actually shoot at people.

 

Odd that then the many current in the Army and Sp Ops specific are calling for changes in the primary rifle caliber due to their personal experience in the current war.

 

But I guess they "never needed to actually shoot at people".

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Odd that then the many current in the Army and Sp Ops specific are calling for changes in the primary rifle caliber due to their personal experience in the current war.

 

But I guess they "never needed to actually shoot at people".

 

Yes, because when I need to know which firearm to select for a given situation, I ask an Army grunt... Bahahahahahaha! Hooo, boy! It's unusual that I really do laugh out loud at the computer, but there it is.

[Fox1]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Yes' date=' because when I need to know which firearm to select for a given situation, I ask an Army grunt... Bahahahahahaha! Hooo, boy! It's unusual that I really do laugh out loud at the computer, but there it is.[/quote']

 

I was on your side you know...

[tesuji]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

First thing i would want to know is WHAT GAME ARE YOU RUNNING?

 

When i run a superhero game, i don't care all that much about providing different mechanics for different takes on guns. On the other hand, when running scifi or streetlevel, i do put more detail into guns and their ilk because at least in part it feels like that style of game is more about "the stuff" and flavor of stuff becomes useful to me and the pcs.

 

As for HERo, i cannot speak to what lies in dark champions, but thats the first place i would look. obviously, as you can see, opinions vary as to its quality.

 

However, the long and short of it is, you need to make it up if the published stuff doesn't meet your demands for detail and differentiation. between damage, skill levels for range and accuracy, armor piercing, stun multipliers, and such you should be able to get a decent amount of flexibility.

 

In terms of sourcebooks, ryan dyancys (?) did a book called ultramodern firearms twice (once for Milleniums end and once for *** modern) which did IMo a decent job of giving you some specs on guns and their differences. ignoring the system specific, its very useful for getting good comparative points to judge on as well as giving you good laundry lists of modern firearms.

 

spycraft also has a modern Arms guide which i found not quite as useful but, IIRC, it had more than just slug throwers and included some grenade launchers or rockets or something that UMF did not.

 

Finally, what you might want to try is to get the guy actively involved in the process.

 

The BIG DRAW for HERO is the "you can build exactly what you want." Show him that by giving him INPUT.

 

What i would do is to say "hey, billy, you are right, we need more gun fu. So tell you what, give me 30 guns you would like to see and give me ratings for each 1-5 (1 best 5 worst) on range, accuracy, reliability, damage, stopping power and penetration. Then give me the basics liike weight and ammo and rate of fire modes. Then, I will run these thru the HERO mill and generate weapon specs to match your ratings 100%."

 

that does several things, all good.

 

1. it defers the research to him and off you. Since he is your demand, it doesn't matter if he is objectively right or not, you will meet his demands.

2. it gets him involved and invested and in something he likes.

3. it shows him the benefit of hero, that you can tailor your game to specs you want, not settle for whats printed.

4. the vague categories are enough that you can handle them easily with a best to worst hero specs.

5. it makes you look really good since you are so responsive to his likes as to design specifically to his preferences.

6. it gets him, you and maybe others immediately into the "building OUR game" and a little away from "running the written word".

 

Now, when you get to your design, the huge thing you need to think on is damage. HERo guns are fairly light damage wise as in they wont drop most characters on a single shot. Thats intentional. That m,ay or may not sit well with your gun guy. But then, really "one-shot stopper" guns might also hinder the style of your game. So thats two things you will have to work thru.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

I was on your side you know...

 

I know. I wasn't making fun of you. I'm really referring back to some comments made by others earlier. I agree with you, by the way.

 

By the way, OP, if you need information on any category of firearms, or any specific firearms, I can give you model names to look up on the internet. I know quite a few.

[Susano]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

I have a friend who I am trying to bring into the fold. He just HAS to have firearms rules which reflect minor differences in caliber and firearm weapon. Any advice?

 

Show him the firearms rules from FENG SHUI, then when he recovers from the shock, HERO will seem to be just fine.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Show him the firearms rules from FENG SHUI' date=' then when he recovers from the shock, HERO will seem to be just fine. [/quote']

 

I am soo gonna kick you in the head for that one. I'll just need to work up a good enough Stunt to pull it off.

 

Hawksmoor

-Drunken Master

[archermoo]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

That's why I asked if Dark Champion's was available. If so then they can use that' date=' or the person intrested in such things can plop down the money and then decide to use it. [/quote']

 

Much agreed. Dark Champs stats out a wide variety of weapons (not just guns) and does an exemplary job of it.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Gee, if caliber doesn't matter I guess I'll take my .22LR bear hunting...

 

Of course a shot to the face will always beat one to the tree. And if your PCs have enough CSLs that they can always guarantee a face-shot, then caliber is probably irrelevant to them. But for most shot placements, caliber can make a big difference. It's not everything; it's not even the most important thing. But it's not nothing, if you'll pardon the double-negative.

 

For an example, most US law enforcement agencies have switched from 9mm to the .40 because it has significantly greater penetration and stopping power. Among other things, this means the .40 round is much less likely to be deflected by ribs and the like, which means you're more likely to hit the important parts you're aiming at.

 

Are those differences significant enough in game terms to make it worth statting out? As tesuji points out, it depends on the game you're playing and who you're playing it with. If treating a .40 and a 9mm as equivilent is really going to dampen your player's enjoyment factor, then yeah it's probably worth it. OTOH, to accurately simulate modern firearms would require a number of rules mods that would, among other things, greatly slow down game play; so the concerns of your other players has to be a factor as well.

 

Give your GNP (Gun Nut Player) the range of how much damage you want firearms to do in your world, from .22 pistols up to .50 rifles. If he can figure out a way to differentiate between all the different calibers within that range, more power to him.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Mercy is the mark of a great man. [stab] Guess I'm just a good man. [stab] Well, I'm okay."

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

Show him the firearms rules from FENG SHUI' date=' then when he recovers from the shock, HERO will seem to be just fine. [/quote']

I was going to suggest Palladium RPG for the same reason, but the last time I did that I spent the next year trying to simulate different Penetration stats for different calibers...

 

And thanks all for the DC recommendations, BTW; I'd been debating whether or not to pick that one up. (I don't know how much it costs DOJ to run this forum, but I figure they more than make it back just on stuff I personally buy from recommendations here.)

 

 

bigdamnhero

Ivanova: "Why does my mouth always taste like old carpet in the morning?"

Computer: "Unknown. Checking medical logs."

[Mentor]

Re: Firearms granularity

 

The first problem with just using caliber to determine damage is that there is more to the equation than the diameter of the round. For example, what differentiates the .22 long rifle bullet from the .223 is certainly not the .003 difference in diameter. Bullet length and shape, amount of propellent, and weapon from which the weapon is fired are the other characteristics determining damage. Hit location would be the other main factor. Unless the GM and the players want a reallt deadly campaign, I hardly recommend true granualarity.

 

The second problem is that of gaming genre. Do you want every PC hit by a bullet to be laid up in ICU for the rest of the adventure month or for one or more to possibly rest up for a bit in the Femme Fatale's budoir turning her to the side opf good, Dr. Spectre's Andean mountain stronghold where the nuclear weather control ray is about to be powered up again and only our heroes can stop him or the Comanche chief's lodge, possibly becoming an unofficial warrior sub chief after the Indians witness the heroe's bravery and honor?

 

Realism is the stuff we do every non game day, so why be so insistent on including it in all of our games as well?