Chuckg Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man *points up* Doom already /has/. Stark just hasn't found that out yet. (Immediately before the 'Unthinkable' arc in Waid's recent FF run, where Doom abandoned all technology, gained great magical powers, went completely insane, became an idiot, and died -- and the order of these actions is debatable -- Doom's armor was at the end of an extremely long and varied upgrade cycle, and sufficient unto whooping hiney in almost literally cosmic amounts. Then... well, let's just say Doom's current status is entirely unlike his usual condition, and that for purposes of this thread, I was assuming pre-'Unthinkable' Doom, as the post-'Unthinkable' Doom is, last I saw, working yet another escape from the grave.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man And what makes it worse is the fact that the stories you hate tend to outnumber the stories you love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man True' date=' but whether or not the plot makes you want to gouge out your eyes with a dull spoon doesn't really count for these kinds of "Who'd Win?" discussions [/quote'] Actually the "Who'd Win?" discussions make me want to gouge my eyes out. The bad writing just made me give up on comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man On another discussion forum I have started and helped maintain a thread known as "The Death Spiral of Comics", dedicated to piling up data points supporting the premise that the comics industry is at present in an epically self-destructive cycle of stupid writing. Participation by the forum patrons is enthusiastic and ongoing. Sadly enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Actually the "Who'd Win?" discussions make me want to gouge my eyes out. The bad writing just made me give up on comics. Cap could still kick Batman's butt... Sorry, I'll be good now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Cap could still kick Batman's butt... Sorry, I'll be good now. Now I want to gouge someone else's eyes out... Not for saying Cap would win, but for reminding me most people think he would lose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Actually the "Who'd Win?" discussions make me want to gouge my eyes out. The bad writing just made me give up on comics. A 'Who'd Win?' discussion with someone who knows the canon of the characters involved and accepts a few basic bits of common sense is a highly pleasurable experience. And a 'Who'd Win?' discussion with someone who isn't doing so... is a lot less fun. In some cases, downright excruciating. (Edit -- as Hermit just gave us an example of.... which I intend to treat as if it were both radioactive, on fire, and heavily taxed.) So I know what you mean, even if I don't entirely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheImperialKhan Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Cap could still kick Batman's butt... Sorry, I'll be good now. There's nothing bad about being correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Did we ever settle Jesus v. Superman? Just wondering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Actually the "Who'd Win?" discussions make me want to gouge my eyes out. That's what made Doomsday so great to me--you could have put him up against any hero or villain, deity or demigod, and he might get beat once--but he'd come back to life strong enough to beat whatever beat him before. Kinda knocks the whole "Who'd Win?" argument into the ditch, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man If a handbook is contradicted by what's actually on the page of the comics themselves, and contradicted often enough and by enough different writers that it's not just a sloppy writing fluke, then I would go with the comics -- not the handbook. It's called 'hierarchy of canonicity', and in that hierarchy, compendiums and addenda come in below primary source material. Originally, the Marvel Handbooks (brainchild of Mark Gruenwald) were only intended to be used by Marvel staff as guides to maintain continuity and consistently and to encourage Marvel writers to use existing characters instead of creating their own (similar) characters. The handbooks were never intended to be released to the public until it occurred to someone at Marvel that they could make an easy profit out of them. Really it was just intended to avoid situations where Magneto says: "Spider Man! We finally meet !" even though they had probably met in an issue of Marvel Team Up the year before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Guidelines only? No wonder the strength ranges were such vague estimates in the higher ranks. And much of the other descriptors were so... flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Yeah' date=' but as awful as the source is (and its beter than anything from any Secret Wars) the original HBTTMU says that Stark's armor is designed to survive a ground zero nuclear strike (it might actually say the same about Doom). [/quote'] Which undercuts the argument even further, as this is precisely the method by which the red and silver armor was destroyed at the end of the Armor Wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Guidelines only? No wonder the strength ranges were such vague estimates in the higher ranks. And much of the other descriptors were so... flexible. Actually the strength ranges was one of the things Gruenwald said that he would have done differently in hindsight. I think the plan was to have estimated strength levels for future editions. I remember at the time that the Hulk's maximum lifting capacity was at 100+tons (which leads you to believe that Hulk's strength doesn't go much higher than 60.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man The common misconception about the OHOTMU. 'Class 100' meant /in excess of/ 100 tons, not 100 tons. In many cases, far in excess. As in "several million tons over 100". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZootSoot Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man If the question is who would win in a fight between Dr. "Why is this walking plot device character still around" Doom and Iron "Lost Weekend" Man, well, we know Tony would win (hell, we know DareDevil would win) 'cause the hero (particularly in his own book) eventually beats the bad guy regardless of power level differences. Doom's powers have slowly increased over the last forty years (very rapidly over the last 18 months), as have those of most characters. Doom, however, is Marvel's *premiere* villain which means that no matter how tiresomely repetitive the character he's gonna come back and he's gonna have the power to kick everyone's @ss, until the end game when he loses through some deus ex machina stupidity. Oh, yeah, and in the old TPBs this psychotic mass-murdering fascist is generally (secretly) a good guy. If Doom's last appearance ever in the MU was in Fantastic Four #300 he would have been one of the greatest characters of all time, now he's a waste of ink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man The common misconception about the OHOTMU. 'Class 100' meant /in excess of/ 100 tons, not 100 tons. In many cases, far in excess. As in "several million tons over 100". No, in the actual text, it said that the Hulk's maximum lift cap was 100+tons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Oh, it's 100+ tons all right. /Way/ plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitruvian23 Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Quote: Originally Posted by Chuckg The common misconception about the OHOTMU. 'Class 100' meant /in excess of/ 100 tons, not 100 tons. In many cases, far in excess. As in "several million tons over 100". No, in the actual text, it said that the Hulk's maximum lift cap was 100+tons. In the original OHOTMU, Hulk's unenraged lift was given as 90 tons, the Thing's as 85 tons, when both had been observed lifting far, far more. I don't know exactly what they based their figures on, except throwing numbers around to give a good idea of relative strengths. They sure didn't do it by examining the comic books, even if you discount absurdities such as Hercules towing Manhattan into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle A. Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Did we ever settle Jesus v. Superman? Just wondering I know for a fact it would be Jesus. I once saw him clothsline Superman and then make him eat a kitten. Jesus is so badass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Well, the apostles would certainly get their booty's stomped by the Justice League anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man Well' date=' the apostles would certainly get their booty's stomped by the Justice League anyway.[/quote'] Yeah, walking on water vs. commanding all sea life is pretty uneven. But ponder this: Judas took down Jesus, and Batman took down Superman..... Judas vs. Batman!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man In the original OHOTMU' date=' Hulk's unenraged lift was given as 90 tons, the Thing's as 85 tons, when both had been observed lifting far, far more. I don't know exactly what they based their figures on, except throwing numbers around to give a good idea of relative strengths. They sure didn't do it by examining the comic books, even if you discount absurdities such as Hercules towing Manhattan into place.[/quote'] The early writers in Champions didn't seem to think much of the OHOTMU as real tonnage. The conversion system that I saw written up by one of them would place an Unearthly strength at 90 to 115 Strength or thereabouts. That's definitely emphasizing the + in 100 + tons. Of course, with that conversion you've got guys who aren't supposed to lift over 100 tons lifting far more. The Thing, for instance, was converted by me using that scale to 88 Strength (I could have made it 85 but I dare to be different). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man I believe there is an "official" Champions Hulk write-up in an issue of Game Trader, done around the time of the Hulk film. I believe it was done by either Stever or Darren. I don't have a copy, but I'm sure someone on the boards will, if they'd like to point out how much the hulk "Officially" lifts. But I believe it was a sliding scale (The angrier he got, the more he could lift) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Re: Dr. Doom vs Iron Man I have it. If I remember right Darren did it (the pdf doesn't say.) He start with 70 STR (400 tons) and can get another +60 STR if he stays angry long enough (continuous Aid)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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