Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

[mayapuppies]

As I've read through the forums, one thing seems to consistently crop up and that is the belief that Strength is under-priced. It even crops up in the FH rule book.

 

One thing I haven't seen is whether or not there has been a solid consensus as to the solution. So I'm curious, what are your opinions on the subject and is there a way to change the cost of Strength (or any stat for that matter) in HeroDesigner?

 

On a related topic should the END cost for strength be on a per 10pt basis or a per 5pt basis?

 

Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?

 

As a caveat, I haven't run a Fantasy campaign with HERO system before...only Champions.

[Shike019]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Well if you are upping the point cost. If you are going by the rules of 1 end/10 pts, you've already doubled the endurance cost normally attributed to strength.

[MitchellS]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

The last poll I saw on this had keeping it at 1 pt winning by about 60% to 40%. There are lots of arguments both ways. The brick gets the figureds but the blaster gets the range and power framework price-breaks. It really seems to balance itself out. I opted for keeping it 1 point.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

As I've read through the forums, one thing seems to consistently crop up and that is the belief that Strength is under-priced. It even crops up in the FH rule book.

 

One thing I haven't seen is whether or not there has been a solid consensus as to the solution. So I'm curious, what are your opinions on the subject and is there a way to change the cost of Strength (or any stat for that matter) in HeroDesigner?

There has been and never will be a solid consensus. It is a well-argued debate in Hero circles. However, it is one of the most common house rules for heroic level gaming.

Yes, HeroDesigner will allow you to change the cost of any characteristic, skill or other ability. The more extensive the changes you want to make, the greater your comfort with programming should be. Changing the cost of STR is done with minimal research and effort, however.

On a related topic should the END cost for strength be on a per 10pt basis or a per 5pt basis?

Str at the Heroic level is already 1 END/5 points.

Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?

Not at all. It's what many GM's do (including myself)

As a caveat, I haven't run a Fantasy campaign with HERO system before...only Champions.

I wouldn't mess with the cost at the Superheroic level. In fantasy, though, virtually every method of doing damage (barring magic) stems from STR. It's vastly more useful for this genre.

 

Here are this and some more tweaks I've made for my own campaign.

 

Keith "Not afraid to Tinker" Curtis

[Outsider]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I'd definitely keep it at 1 in Supers... in FH, though, STR is a lot more important, since all of the commonly available offensive and defensive equipment requires it. Might go to 2 per for FH.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Yes, HeroDesigner will allow you to change the cost of any characteristic, skill or other ability. The more extensive the changes you want to make, the greater your comfort with programming should be. Changing the cost of STR is done with minimal research and effort, however.

Any chance you could send me in the right direction to do this?

[Gunrunner]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I would use a 2 point cost for 1 point of strength. Remember to reduce weapon Min ST's accordingly though. This makes for more "realistic" Strength and minimum ST levels.

[Midhir]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I've set STR at 2 points in my campaigns right after I ran my first FH campaign 15 years ago. It was just to cheap not to have 20 STR and reap the benefits when dealing with mostly mustle powered weapons.

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

STR needs to cost 2 in FH. It really does. STR is so critical to non-magic-wielding characters, for both offense and defense, that it's still cost effective to buy STR well past the NCM.

[Rick]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I don't care either way. When I run games, I leave it at 1 for 1. That's me, everyone needs to make up their own minds. I like it as an optional rule as opposed to an official change.

[arcady]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Don't think I've ever heard of this house rule. So for me, 1 point per point. It's never presented a problem for me in play, so I've never thought about it.

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Any chance you could send me in the right direction to do this?

RE: Making STR cost more.

 

Check out the docs, and the forum on making 'extension templates'.

 

Get a Text Editor.....

You will need a Template that extends Main.hdt or Heroic.hdt.

{ You will also need some spare hair to pull out, and someone to yell at, and maybe some bricks to break }

You probably want to try and extend Heroic.hdt

Clip out the Characteristics section from Main.hdt

Put it in your Template.

You'll see something like:

 

Play With the LVLCOST="1" (or maybe its the LVLVAL ?)

Try making it 2 or whatever. Adjust the NCM values here as well

 

Save your new File.

Try and Go: New Character from Template ......

See if it works.

If HeroDesigner Barfs or it doesn't work, pull some hair out and try again....

( It's not too hard just don't overwrite any of the original files )

[Markdoc]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I'm in the 2 points per camp, but I simply move the END cost for STR to the same "1 per 10 active" as everything else. That tends to give you a better range of STR in the typical party while not penalising the high STR guys too much.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lezentauw]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I don't like to change the cost for things. I use a house rule instead, that IMO causes a more realistic build. I ask that for every point STR a character has, that character also has to purchase a point in CON or BODY. If I do see a 20 STR, there will also be a high BODY and/or CON to go with it. Since I give out 25/50 points, 30 points for that 20 STR is just under half the points...

 

If you also ask them where they see their character as visually. That usually helps them put their character in correct point category. The first question I give them when I see a 20 STR, "Do you really see your character as strong as a world class weight lifter?"

[gewing]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I'd definitely keep it at 1 in Supers... in FH' date=' though, STR is a lot more important, since all of the commonly available offensive and defensive equipment requires it. Might go to 2 per for FH.[/quote']

 

 

Depending on the exact campaign, it might not be totally out of line in supers even.

 

Though bricks would whine.

 

 

I know I would.

[gewing]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I'm in the 2 points per camp, but I simply move the END cost for STR to the same "1 per 10 active" as everything else. That tends to give you a better range of STR in the typical party while not penalising the high STR guys too much.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

SOme days I get darned tired of agreeing with you point of view.

 

Now if only I could win a big enough lottery to start my own company and hire certain people from the boards so they would move here...

 

[Black Rose]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.

• STR would work out easily,
  
• DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off
  
• CON is only a smidge off IIRC,
  
• BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap
  
• INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket
  
• EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to
  
• PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something
  
• COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.
  

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this' date=' yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.[list']

[*]STR would work out easily,

[*]DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off

[*]CON is only a smidge off IIRC,

[*]BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap

[*]INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket

[*]EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to

[*]PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something

[*]COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....

 

You should.

 

I've actually had the exact same idea of forcing all stats to 2/+1. My version would break out DEX into two separate abilities, "Agility" and "Coordination"; the former would matter for SPD and DCV, the latter for OCV and fine work. PRE would be rolled up into EGO; INT would be, uh, too expensive.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Just to be contrary to everyone else who posted.

 

Make STR less effective. Everyone has a 0 point Disadvantage: STR is -5 less than expected. This gives them -1" Leap, -1d6 of damage, and halves Lift and Carry. This also means that STR minimums are also harsher.

 

Ok, here's some examples.

 

Old Man has 5 STR. He can lift 60 pounds, can't jump, can't do a punch.

Young Child has an 8 STR. He can lift 80 pounds, can jump 1/2", can do 1/2d6 punch.

Average Man has a 10 STR. He can lift 110 pounds, can jump 1", can do 1d6 punch.

Adventuring Man has a 13 STR. He can lift 165 pounds, can jump 1 1/2", can do 1 1/2d6 punch.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Personally, I'd say that the fact that, over 20, it DOES cost 2 pts per pt of STR makes it even out. Considering how cheaply the other party members in Josh's low-level FH game are buying spells and things, it seems mostly fair that my character spends 5 points to be more effective, while they're spending 2.

 

I do realize it affects more than that, but Josh started us all out REALLY low (10/25, I think). If it cost 2 points for a point of STR from the very beginning, my character concept would've been utterly useless, and none of us would've bothered with STR to begin with.

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Old Man has 5 STR. He can lift 60 pounds' date=' can't jump, can't do a punch.[/quote']

 

Well, I think I'm a little stronger than that...

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Personally, I'd say that the fact that, over 20, it DOES cost 2 pts per pt of STR makes it even out. Considering how cheaply the other party members in Josh's low-level FH game are buying spells and things, it seems mostly fair that my character spends 5 points to be more effective, while they're spending 2.

 

I do realize it affects more than that, but Josh started us all out REALLY low (10/25, I think). If it cost 2 points for a point of STR from the very beginning, my character concept would've been utterly useless, and none of us would've bothered with STR to begin with.

 

STR isn't so much of a problem at such low point totals, where every point matters. But most FH games are somewhere around 50+50 or 75+75, giving everyone enough points to put plenty of them into STR. I have a hard time thinking of a better way to spend 8 points than to go up to 18 STR.

[CUnknown]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I definitely can see an arguement that STR is worth 2, but more important to me is that DEX costs 4. You can just total up the points that DEX gives you, and it's pretty apparent that it's underpriced.

 

3 points of DEX costs 9, and it gives you: 1 OCV level, 1 DCV level, 0.3 speed, +3 lightning reflexes, and possibly +1 level in DEX skills as well. That's a total benefit package of what.. 19 points? Making DEX cost 4 does a lot to balance it out, imo.

 

I wouldn't make DEX cost 4 in normal Champions games, but in Fantasy Hero it seems especially important to me.

[swobeas]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

I have just finished GMing a FH campaign with 1 for 1, but the next will definately be 2 for 1

Considering END I will go along with Mardoc and charge 1 END for 10 active points or 5 points for STR.

I think this is a good way to balance the power levels of different kinds of characters keeping in mind that STR shows up that much in FH (damage, figureds, DCV-penalty from armour, leap)

[Hierax]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

What if left the cost of STR at 1 but you gave STR No Figured Characteristics? Isn't that what makes STR over-powered?