Retcon the CU

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Nice Michael, did you draw that? I've the Blood in my one off champions universe.

[mirage]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Why?

 

I understand that NCM is old topic beaten to death, but 'superhumanly trained' characters are solidly grounded into the genre. I've yet to see a good explanation (other than - I just don't like it - which is fine. Hey, it's your game. ) for why folks feel NCM should be used in the superhero genre. Batman, Shang-Chi, etc., they all perform feats that are superhuman on a regular basis. 'Superhuman training' is just another character origin/background, an integral part of the hand-waving/suspension of belief that is necessary to maintain a superhuman world, similar to comic book physics.

 

PS: Not trying to start another intense debate, just honestly curious.

 

 

Enforcing the NCM rule means that writing up a character who got their superhuman stats through superhuman efforts. (a complete oxymoron, superhuman efforts by definitaion means beyond human.) And paying double for the stats, means they have to keep up those efforts.

 

So you can write up a Batman or whomever, just be prepeared to pay the additional cost for having NCM.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Again: Why shouldn't *everybody* pay that, then??

 

What exactly is a metahuman losing out that is an adequate counterbalance to the benefit of not paying NCM doubling??

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I just like punishing anyone who wants to play Batman.

 

 

 

 

I kid.

[Susano]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Nice Michael' date=' did you draw that? I've the Blood in my one off champions universe.[/quote']

 

Yup. Did it years ago.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Again: Why shouldn't *everybody* pay that, then??

 

What exactly is a metahuman losing out that is an adequate counterbalance to the benefit of not paying NCM doubling??

 

Here's my view, which somewhat mirrors the official explanation:

 

Nobody should pay it because in the 'standard comic book world' (which regular Champions power levels are based on), when all is said and done, the only difference between Batman and Superman is that they have different origins. All comic book characters REGULARLY perform superhuman feats compared to real-life humans. Black Canary (MA/Energy Projector), were she to have, say, my real life CON and BOD, would have been dead two seconds into her first stint as a superhero. Batman runs across rooftops and bounces off flagpoles, 'superhuman' DEX (and suspension of belief with some comic book/genre hand-waving) allows you to do that (or 'superhuman' Acrobatics skills), he regularly takes blows that fly him ten feet (or more) away. An actual blow flying me ten feet would likely snap my neck or back, heck I'd at least break SOMETHING.

 

For the 'standard comic book world and from a genre/gaming perspective, 'training' or 'normal human' doesn't mean what it means in the real world.

 

Now this doesn't apply when playing in lower-powered games when trying for the most realism possible. Of course, this if fine for others, but I have no wish to play in games where I have my keen optic blast but Joe Mook over there has a 9mm that is just as, if not more, effective.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

NCM is an extra 'free' 20 points at character creation paid for later with a limit to where the character can most efficiently develop...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

NCM is an extra 'free' 20 points at character creation paid for later with a limit to where the character can most efficiently develop...

 

Viewed another way, it's an interest-free advance on future experience points. Once the character develops to the point where he'd be better off without the limitation (ie 20 cp paid for doubled stat costs), he buys off the disadvantage.

 

I would generally make it clear at the outset that taking NCM as a disadvantage means you must keep the disadvantage throughout the campaign - it cannot lightly be bought off with xp later.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Just a quick note. Doctor Destroyer didn't destroy all of Pittsburgh, just a part of it. One of his main creatures was Godzilla.

[massey]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't like the magic background.

 

1) I can't play H.G. Wells' Time Traveller. He invented a working time machine in the 1800s, during a "low-ebb" magic time. He can't do this in the Champions' universe. That eliminates perfectly legitimate backgrounds from my character's history. Dr Frankenstein is likewise against the rules. As is Dracula.

 

2) It assumes that my super-scientist can't duplicate alien technology. If Randall Richardson, Super-Scientist Extraordinaire looks at Malvan tech with his 75 Int, he should be able to understand it and duplicate it. He's got every science skill in the book at 40 or less. Yet somehow, if he picks a Malvan force field projector, learns how it works, and then builds his own, his will stop working in 20 years, while the Malvans' will still be working, because they "earned" theirs and humans didn't. This implies that science is somehow a meritorious system. The GM tells you "I'm sorry, but that's a 9th level technological item. Your society will have to hit 18th level to build that. You've got a lot of orcs to kill before you gain enough experience points."

 

3) If my super-science stops working because the flow of quantum energy stops, then the Malvan ship should stop--because we're using the same design.

 

4) It means I can't build technology that never breaks. Adamantium suddenly becomes softer. Star Trek technology that should operate for millennia without breaking suddenly has problems (the Malvan versions of this technology don't have problems, which is strange because Randall Richardson is smarter than Malvans, and can improve upon their technology) and fails within a few years.

 

5) Either my stuff is science, or it's not. If it's science, then it works. It doesn't miraculously fail, because it's science and it simply works. Cars don't miraculously fail when magic leaves. Neither do digital watches, or levers and pulleys, for that matter. If it's not science, then Randall Richardson shouldn't be able to analyze Malvan technology, because it doesn't rely upon "magic energy".

 

6) I don't want my character to forget how to build things. I don't want him to have a "super-power". I just want him to be really smart. Really REALLY smart. It's not a "power". It's raw intelligence. I never liked how they retconned Reed Richards into having his intelligence boosted by his stretchy-powers. It pees all over who I want my character to be.

 

It's inconsistent. It limits the types of characters I want to play. It doesn't make sense. It's an artificial distinction.

 

Randall Richardson can build a time machine because he knows how it works. There was no burst of insight. He just thought about the nature of the world, and figured it out. If he looks at a Malvan time machine, he'll say "Hmm... it's a little bit primitive, because they obviously haven't figured out blah blah and blah yet. But overall, it's the same design." He's the smartest man in the universe. He knows all about EVERYTHING. He should know what is powering his machines, even if it's the wavering of magical energies. And if the Malvans can figure out how to keep their tech working when the magic goes bye-bye, then RR should as well. He's the smartest man in the universe, after all.

 

 

But the Champions' timeline says I can't play that character because they need to have Jedi knights team up with Conan who has already gotten himself some Johnny Mneumonic-style cyberjacks installed. And then they can go and cruise the Matrix for chicks. With their +5 longswords and Decks of Many Things.

[Chuckg]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

> 1) I can't play H.G. Wells' Time Traveller. He invented a working time

> machine in the 1800s, during a "low-ebb" magic time. He can't do this

> in the Champions' universe. That eliminates perfectly legitimate

> backgrounds from my character's history. Dr Frankenstein is likewise

> against the rules. As is Dracula.

 

Or my own Baron von Darien, which is why I just completely ignored that part too.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Massey,

 

1) Creation during low magic ebbs is possible. The CU doesn't say you can't have them. That is the part everyone is confused about.

 

2) Randall wouldn't have a 75 INT without the magic allowing him to have it. Without the magic-induced mutations people are basically limited to the NCM system.

 

3) Super-science does not stop working. Science based on magic-manipulated physics does. Two different things.

 

4) Randall slowly loses his vast INT when the magic goes away because humans have not evolved to have that degree of intelligent, yet. The smartest human in the real world probably only has around a 23 INT.

 

5) They retconned Reed because Marvel also wanted to have an understanding of why he was so much greater then all other humans in regard to intelligence. Being the rare Einsteinian exception is fine. Being 100 times smarter then Einstein for no reason is not.

[massey]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Massey,

 

1) Creation during low magic ebbs is possible. The CU doesn't say you can't have them. That is the part everyone is confused about.

 

2) Randall wouldn't have a 75 INT without the magic allowing him to have it. Without the magic-induced mutations people are basically limited to the NCM system.

 

3) Super-science does not stop working. Science based on magic-manipulated physics does. Two different things.

 

4) Randall slowly loses his vast INT when the magic goes away because humans have not evolved to have that degree of intelligent, yet. The smartest human in the real world probably only has around a 23 INT.

 

5) They retconned Reed because Marvel also wanted to have an understanding of why he was so much greater then all other humans in regard to intelligence. Being the rare Einsteinian exception is fine. Being 100 times smarter then Einstein for no reason is not.

 

And that's my point. The answer is basically "you can't play the character you want, because the background doesn't let you". I don't want him to get dumber in the future. I just want him to be a once-in-a-thousand-years intellectual talent. The problem with any unified origin is that, if your character doesn't fit the origin, you can't play what you've envisioned.

[Susano]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

2) Randall wouldn't have a 75 INT without the magic allowing him to have it. Without the magic-induced mutations people are basically limited to the NCM system.

 

Yes he can. He just has to pay (10 + 10 + (55 x 2)) 120 points to do it. Which will eat up most of your 150 starting points right there. There is nothing stopping Randall from having that 75 INT, except for NCM limits, campaign limits, and the GM's say so.

 

And to be honest, I'd rather not have a 75 INT character in just about any game I ran, as I wouldn't know how to deal with it (same goes for 75 DEX characters).

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Massey,

 

1) Creation during low magic ebbs is possible. The CU doesn't say you can't have them. That is the part everyone is confused about.

 

I don't find it confusing, I find it meta-gamish and internally inconsistent. Time Machines aren't possible, because they're not "real" technology that you've "earned" ... except when they are possible, in exactly the same time and place. Vampires aren't possible, except when they are, etc. This is a matter of taste, being discussed in a thread about what you would change in the CU. No one (so far as I can tell) is suggesting that your preference for an eb and flow of magic is "wrong". I don't see any other posters having trouble following your arguments either. Some of us just don't agree.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't find it confusing' date=' I find it meta-gamish and internally inconsistent. Time Machines aren't possible, because they're not "real" technology that you've "earned" ... except when they are possible, in exactly the same time and place. Vampires aren't possible, except when they are, etc. This is a matter of taste, being discussed in a thread about what you would change in the CU. No one (so far as I can tell) is suggesting that your preference for an eb and flow of magic is "wrong". I don't see any other posters having trouble following your arguments either. Some of us just don't agree.[/quote']

I'm just trying to clear up misconceptions. Many people have had them over the course of this tread. Jeff T, for example, assumed when the magic went away everything just completely stopped working when in fact it took 2 years to completely drain away; he also assumed you could not do time travel adventures because of this [which was also incorrect]. Massey assumes there are no supernatural creatures because there is no magical energy at certain points in history. That is also incorrect. In fact at certain historical points the only magic available was that granted by supernatural creatures.

 

People can create time machines without super-tech. It is a one-in-a-trillion fluke but it can be done. The time machine existed in the CU. The island of Dr. Moreau existed as well. These people's abilities were fluke creations which were never duplicated by anyone else until magic altered the laws of physics. There's nothing wrong with having one-in-a-trillion events within the CU. The point is not to make every single event a one-in-a-trillion event.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Can one give examples of highly advanced technology in the CU that didn't go away when the magic went away, Mitchell? I'd really love to see some examples of this in the text.

 

And there's the question of why all technology that was developed since WWII didn't suddenly collapse when the magic faded away, since everything, not just supertech, was being based on the new laws of physics. Remember that a good deal of quantum theory, especially the more advanced elements quantum field theory, comes about *after* the magic comes to the world.

 

In the end, there's absolutely no point to jamming all of the settings into a single timeline. At best you should have two timelines and a bunch of settings, a superheroic timeline, a heroic SF timeline, and a bunch of fantasy settings.

[sinanju]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

In the end' date=' there's absolutely no point to jamming all of the settings into a single timeline. At best you should have two timelines and a bunch of settings, a superheroic timeline, a heroic SF timeline, and a bunch of fantasy settings.[/quote']

 

Yes!

 

Massey can't play Randall Richardson, Suuuuper-Genius because the meta-history of the game world requires that all his "science" turn out to be magic dressed up as science...which neither he nor anyone else can apparently detect. After all, we can't let him create _real_ science because it has to fade away in twenty years so we can cram that genie back into the bottle, clearing the way for the eventual Space Hero timeline to happen. Why? Because we insist that all the possible genre histories coexist in one super-duper timeline.

 

It's on a par with a meta-history that claims that in 20 years, Dr. Evil releases a retrovirus that scrubs away all superpowers. Well, that's swell--except that a retrovirus isn't gonna have much effect on robots and androids and beings of pure energy or thought, and what about aliens whose "powers" are natural, or who don't have anything like DNA as humans understand it? Or Batman, who has no powers, only a trainload of mad skillz?

 

What's that you say? It works on them too because, well, just because it has to, so that there are no superpowered beings in the far future? It's ludicrous, and it ham-handedly interferes in character concepts that were explicitly designed (for whatever reason) in a way that such a thing shouldn't have any effect on them. It isn't surprising that people get offedned by this kind of tampering, when it violates the character concepts they're playing in order to--what? Allow for a futuristic sci-fi campaign environment they're not playing, and may never play in? WTF?

 

Which is one of the big reasons I've never run a straight commercially-produced campaign background. There's invariably some facet of said background that I don't like, and even if there wasn't, I just prefer making up my own--even if bits and pieces are stolen from novels, comics, tv and movies that I like.

[CBikle]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The whole "magic universe" angle employed in CU, seemed to be created as a sales tool to encourage one genre blending into the next with the intent of encouraging the average Champions player to view all source and genre books (Terran Empire, Valdorian Age, etc.) as essential to the CU.

 

It's too inflexible, irritates GMs and players alike and should be dropped from the "official universe".

 

The CU should be a lot more "open" and unregulated.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Sometimes, people get too worked up about things. If a lightbulb's burned out, I don't waste an hour moaning about burnt out lightbulbs and the inefficiency of lightbulb manufacturers, I replace it. If a campaign setting has an arbitrary detail that can be easily fixed, I replace it.

[assault]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

And there's the question of why all technology that was developed since WWII didn't suddenly collapse when the magic faded away' date=' since everything, not just supertech, was being based on the new laws of physics.[/quote']

 

That's right, of course. The presence of "magic" was part of the laws of physics during this time, and would have been factored into all theoretical and applied science. And, as a result, would have been relied on in the development of any technology that wasn't simply a refinement of previous stuff.

 

Which, come to think of it... What If all post-WWII technology was to fail? Once you deal with the obvious issues with nuclear reactors failing (oops!), diseases you suddenly can't cure any more, and so on, a retro-Thirties setting could be quite neat. It would be just right for a DC:TAS campaign. And since the magic didn't disappear entirely, you could still build characters with Combat Luck.

 

In the end, there's absolutely no point to jamming all of the settings into a single timeline.

 

Aside from a certain amount of cross-marketing, no.

 

Yes, it's good that people can choose to reuse stuff from other settings if they want. I have no problem with Takofanes being some guy from a mythical past. I positively want to know at least a little bit about the history of Atlantis. On the other hand, I'm not all that interested in using most of the Star Hero aliens, who are a rather poor fit for a superheroic setting.

 

Of course, the tighter constraints in the official setting, the less likely it is that GMs will set their games in it. That's not actually such a big deal, since every campaign is a variant anyway. But aspects that are overwhelmingly disliked and disregarded are aspects that weren't a terribly good idea in the first place.

 

Of course, there will inevitably be a few such aspects in the setting.

 

In most cases, though, the actual effect of the constraints are pretty marginal. It's easy enough to simply disregard the "magic is the source of powers" stuff entirely, and all the future history about powers going away is just one possible timeline. Unless your characters are planning on going time-travelling, it's simply not important, and if they do, who knows what they will find?

 

Yes, there are some silly comments in the setting material. Ignore them. It will save your sanity.

 

Either that, or you could believe that Barry Allen was given his powers by an inter-dimensional imp named Mopee.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Sometimes' date=' people get too worked up about things. If a lightbulb's burned out, I don't waste an hour moaning about burnt out lightbulbs and the inefficiency of lightbulb manufacturers, I replace it. If a campaign setting has an arbitrary detail that can be easily fixed, I replace it.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. That's what Retconing is all about.

[Kirby]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Okay folks' date=' if you were running the show, what changes would you make to the "official" history of the CU? [/quote']

My personal preference would initially to keep the continuity between previous editions and 5th, mainly because those that I actually like (VOICE, Seven Horseman, Protectors, Masq, 4E Champions, CLOWN, etc.) aren't a part of 5th Ed. Then, with the battle of Detroit, if there were any characters that I didn't want to make it to 5E, I'd have them die in the big battle.

 

Other changes would be that Dr. Destroyer did die and that VIPER and DEMON were still 4E style. That's all I can think of off-hand right now.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I think that should be the GMs and the Players. Not the game writers and publishers: Hero and Champions are about the players and GMs deciding on sfx. But CU has declared otherwise.

 

Certainly we have the right to come up with our own explanations, but I don't think it is out of the question that HERO is attempting to explain how the CU works. You seem to be saying here that HERO shouldn't even have attempted to offer an explanation.

 

After all, an official campaign is really just a guideline in the end.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Who decides what science is based on magic-manipulated physica, and what is based on physics?

 

I think that should be the GMs and the Players. Not the game writers and publishers: Hero and Champions are about the players and GMs deciding on sfx. But CU has declared otherwise.

You are missing the fact that the CU is not a generic campaign world. It is a specific world designed with specific rules. All of DoJ's campaign worlds are specific and have their own set of rules. The CU is setting the sfx because it is showing you one example of what you can do with Champions; the DoJ example. If you choose to change that example then you are playing in a homebrew CU. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but I was discussing the official CU not each individual GM's homebrew CU. In my CU I would not have supers leaving in 2020 either but when I deviate from the setting I understand that I am changing it to suit my homebrew needs; not the needs of the CU setting itself. DoJ's CU is carved in stone. Each GM's is not. I think i said that back on page 2 also.