Retcon the CU

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

3) Super-science does not stop working. Science based on magic-manipulated physics does. Two different things.

 

Is Defender's armor built because James Harmon is a 2nd tier supergenius or because of magic-manipulated physics?

 

The answer is the latter. That puts a bad taste in my mouth and this is, essentially, a matter of taste.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Is Defender's armor built because James Harmon is a 2nd tier supergenius or because of magic-manipulated physics?

 

The answer is the latter. That puts a bad taste in my mouth and this is, essentially, a matter of taste.

But you see, what we do not know, based on 5 paragraphs spread over 3 books, is how much of Defender's armor continued to work after 2022. There is too much unknown about the CU to make exacting descriptions.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

My personal preference would initially to keep the continuity between previous editions and 5th' date=' mainly because those that I actually like (VOICE, Seven Horseman, Protectors, Masq, 4E Champions, CLOWN, etc.) aren't a part of 5th Ed. Then, with the battle of Detroit, if there were any characters that I didn't want to make it to 5E, I'd have them die in the big battle.[/quote']

My personal preference would've been to create an entirely new campaign world full of new and interesting characters and to have just left the old CU alone.

 

Other changes would be that Dr. Destroyer did die and that VIPER and DEMON were still 4E style. That's all I can think of off-hand right now.

I would've had Dr. Destroyer die as well, along with several other well-known 4E CU characters. 4E VIPER was good; 5E is about the same to me. I never cared for 4E DEMON. I just couldn't stand the idea of a mystic group using so much hi-tech equipment. They just seemed like VIPER, only thier field commanders had mystic maces.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't like the magic background.

 

1) I can't play H.G. Wells' Time Traveller. He invented a working time machine in the 1800s, during a "low-ebb" magic time. He can't do this in the Champions' universe. That eliminates perfectly legitimate backgrounds from my character's history. Dr Frankenstein is likewise against the rules. As is Dracula.

 

As noted, this is not so; there was still some magic in the CU. Not much, but some. This is why these are isolated, irreproducible incidents - Dr Frankenstein isn't going to create a million Frankies to terrorize the world.

 

It _helps_ those sorts of stories to not have archmages who can casually level cities floating around.

 

2) It assumes that my super-scientist can't duplicate alien technology. If Randall Richardson, Super-Scientist Extraordinaire looks at Malvan tech with his 75 Int, he should be able to understand it and duplicate it. He's got every science skill in the book at 40 or less. Yet somehow, if he picks a Malvan force field projector, learns how it works, and then builds his own, his will stop working in 20 years, while the Malvans' will still be working, because they "earned" theirs and humans didn't. This implies that science is somehow a meritorious system. The GM tells you "I'm sorry, but that's a 9th level technological item. Your society will have to hit 18th level to build that. You've got a lot of orcs to kill before you gain enough experience points."

 

If he copied Malvan tech exactly, and for some reason didn't go for superior performance (which he can do in the ambience of magic, and frankly, given that there's virtually no way to note that laws of physics aren't a constant) - then yes, it would keep working. It wouldn't be repairable after the magic goes away except by someone with a sufficient level of knowledge - and the CU *as written* doesn't have anyone interfere enough to leave the full body of Malvan tech on Earth.

 

If you *did* copy the entirety of Malvan Science onto a storage unit that doesn't require magic to work then you would alter the timeline. It would be possible to keep near miraculous tech alive on earth.

 

In the CU, no one did that, because no one had any reason to suspect Malvan tech was fundamentally different (it looks like it's slightly inferior, actually - apparently they don't favour pushing the envelope).

 

You *could*. There's no reason not to. But assuming the PC's or a GM created NPC do not interfere, it won't happen. None of the _existing_ CU characters are going to do that.

 

3) If my super-science stops working because the flow of quantum energy stops, then the Malvan ship should stop--because we're using the same design.

 

If you ARE using the same design - WHICH NO ONE ON EARTH DOES - it would keep going. If you're not...

 

4) It means I can't build technology that never breaks. Adamantium suddenly becomes softer. Star Trek technology that should operate for millennia without breaking suddenly has problems (the Malvan versions of this technology don't have problems, which is strange because Randall Richardson is smarter than Malvans, and can improve upon their technology) and fails within a few years.

 

Randall's ideas of "improvements" don't quite work how he wanted them to; it would be sheer luck to pick out what would keep working sans magic - given he has no experience with it, no texts relating to it, and he doesn't even know it will happen.

 

Short of actual field experiments with magic draining, he has no way short of (you guessed it) magically pulling it out of his backside to find out the relevant data.

 

If there *is* some kind of Adamantium metal, it would remain that hard. Of course, the ability to reshape it goes away, as does any knowledge of how to make more.

 

5) Either my stuff is science, or it's not. If it's science, then it works. It doesn't miraculously fail, because it's science and it simply works. Cars don't miraculously fail when magic leaves. Neither do digital watches, or levers and pulleys, for that matter. If it's not science, then Randall Richardson shouldn't be able to analyze Malvan technology, because it doesn't rely upon "magic energy".

 

Because a grandfather clock depends on gravity, a skilled watchmaker couldn't analyze a mechanical clock designed to work in zero G?

 

Take away the gravity and the scientifically made pendulum clock stops working.

 

Some CU cars would stop working, and there's probably some trouble transitioning over the more mundane cutting edge electronics - but the working, non-magic fueled equivalents are only a century (at most) ahead of where mankind was before the magic came back. It's relatively easy to fix something that only works better in "gravity" (certain types of pens), rather than something that needs "gravity" as a fundamental component.

 

6) I don't want my character to forget how to build things. I don't want him to have a "super-power". I just want him to be really smart. Really REALLY smart. It's not a "power". It's raw intelligence. I never liked how they retconned Reed Richards into having his intelligence boosted by his stretchy-powers. It pees all over who I want my character to be.

 

Why the heck is he so smart? There's a limit to the processing power of a hunk of meat. One way or another, he's superhumanly intelligent.

 

Unless, you know, he *isn't* superhumanly intelligent. If he is, he won't be smarter than is humanly possible.

 

We have a good idea of how smart is humanly possible.

 

Hint: It's on THIS side of inventing FTL travel over coffee and a donut.

 

It's inconsistent. It limits the types of characters I want to play. It doesn't make sense. It's an artificial distinction.

 

Randall Richardson can build a time machine because he knows how it works. There was no burst of insight. He just thought about the nature of the world, and figured it out. If he looks at a Malvan time machine, he'll say "Hmm... it's a little bit primitive, because they obviously haven't figured out blah blah and blah yet. But overall, it's the same design." He's the smartest man in the universe. He knows all about EVERYTHING. He should know what is powering his machines, even if it's the wavering of magical energies. And if the Malvans can figure out how to keep their tech working when the magic goes bye-bye, then RR should as well. He's the smartest man in the universe, after all.

 

Okay then. Randall Richardson is that smart. He's your PC in a CU game? So there's now a new superhuman in the CU?

 

And his powers are such that it's going to allow him to change the world? Wow.

 

Who'd have thunk it.

 

Congratulations. You've created a PC who is designed such that *he can have an impact on the game world*.

 

There IS no Randall Richardson in the CU. Adding one means that maybe someone WILL prevent the CU from becoming Star Hero - huh. Guess that must be an alternate timeline then.

 

But the Champions' timeline says I can't play that character because they need to have Jedi knights team up with Conan who has already gotten himself some Johnny Mneumonic-style cyberjacks installed. And then they can go and cruise the Matrix for chicks. With their +5 longswords and Decks of Many Things.

 

Actually, it's so they can have Galactic Champions without writing a thousand years of history in which somehow, supervillains of godlike power never manage to win. So that somewhere in the past and future there's room for any character you might want to have tumble into the present.

 

You can play that character. You just need to realize that, like playing ANY character who can idly reshape the world (say a gnillionaire who can break entire countries with his checkbook), you have to write your own damn timeline.

 

They can't predict the actions of every PC group. They can ONLY say what will happen if you don't actually PLAY in the game universe.

 

It's not like the timeline is enforced by any entity. The PC's could (say) find a a way to utterly defeat Mechanon and prevent Mechananon 3000. A sufficiently powerful Cyberkinetic ought to be able to pull that off.

 

 

What do you want? No timeline at all, because it means you have to follow it to the letter, and therefore cannot have any adventures at all?

[assault]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

But you see' date=' what we do not know, based on 5 paragraphs spread over 3 books, [/quote']

 

This is an important point. Regardless of exactly how many paragraphs and books we are dealing with, we are trying to extract a lot of information from a very small quantity of sources.

 

As for Defender's armour: Harmon is a supergenius who builds his armour based on a cutting edge understanding of physics. And then the laws of physics change...

 

The effects of "magic" are for decades observable and reproducable facts. They are therefore factored into to scientific theories, and technology and engineering based on that science. When the magic goes away, the theories become incorrect, and the technology ceases to function. Previously observable phenomena and repeatable experients cease to be observable or repeatable.

 

Harmon is not an idiot. He developed his technology according to impeccable scientific methods. It breaks down due to circumstances entirely beyond his control. Quite literally, decades of scientific study are invalidated in a couple of years.

 

Incidentally, this would wreak sufficient social and economic havoc to justify a rapid transition to a dystopian setting. It would come very close to justifying a post-apocalyptic one!

 

Note that I said decades of study were invalidated. That implies that what occurred was merely a setback. At least some of what was lost could be regained in time. And was, during the Star Hero periods.

 

None of this really bears too close an examination. The inconsistencies and illogic would just leap out and bite you. But that's inevitable in any gaming setting. Deal with it. (I need a shrug smiley here).

[Kirby]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I never cared for 4E DEMON. I just couldn't stand the idea of a mystic group using so much hi-tech equipment. They just seemed like VIPER' date=' only thier field commanders had mystic maces. [/quote']

Well, that's one reason I liked them. The facade of being 'just another hi-tech criminal organization' was something I liked, yet they weren't perceived as being as efficient or powerful as VIPER. Then, when the heroes discover the truth, their scary aspects come out.

 

I always did a stark contrast once the PCs discovered the truth: VIPER went after money, hitech items, and illegal money making schemes. DEMON went after "old money" (people), ritual artifacts, and mystical items. VIPER used hostages as a means to escape or barter for better prison terms ("we never killed a hostage") if confronted by supers. DEMON killed hostages if confronted by supers. VIPER kidnapped people for ransom or short-term projects. DEMON abducted people for sacrifices; virgins work best. VIPER used their fame/notoriety to help install fear where possible and let citizens become compliant when they reared their head. DEMON used what fame they had for misdirection.

 

At least, that's how I used them.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Sometimes' date=' people get too worked up about things. If a lightbulb's burned out, I don't waste an hour moaning about burnt out lightbulbs and the inefficiency of lightbulb manufacturers, I replace it. If a campaign setting has an arbitrary detail that can be easily fixed, I replace it.[/quote']

Hey! Mr. I can be adaptable! Knockitoffwillya? These people are knee deep in RANTING! It's a noble gaming pasttime and you shouldn't point out the fact that once they start running it the world becomes theirs!

 

sheesh. How do you think this thread got to 14 pages? People retconning? NO! It was a time honored argument over metacampaign techniques.

 

 

Alright, gentlemen, as you were. I think someone was saying the Magic Meta-Gaming aspect was asinine; who was that?

 

 

...

..

Sorry.

 

Chad "I get surly when I'm sick, sorry" Riley.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Hey! Mr. I can be adaptable! Knockitoffwillya? These people are knee deep in RANTING! It's a noble gaming pasttime and you shouldn't point out the fact that once they start running it the world becomes theirs!

 

sheesh. How do you think this thread got to 14 pages? People retconning? NO! It was a time honored argument over metacampaign techniques.

.

 

I understand and appreciate analysis. But when a problem's as simple as making a two-second change that boils down to "Not in my campaign" *and* it really doesn't negate the rest of the setting, the complaining gets a little annoying when it goes on this long,

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Overall, the thread hasn't been people complaining about the magic element. Its been a back and fourth betweem those that don't like it first explaining, then defending their reasons for not liking it And proponents of the magic sfx apparently feeling either insulted or bound and determined to "prove" that the other side should like it.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Overall' date=' the thread hasn't been people complaining about the magic element. Its been a back and fourth betweem those that don't like it first explaining, then defending their reasons for not liking it And proponents of the magic sfx apparently feeling either insulted or bound and determined to "prove" that the other side should like it.[/quote']

 

Rule of the Internet. If the other party doesn't agree with your personal preference, either he has failed to appreciate its depth and subtlety or he is actually insane.

 

After all, there is only One True Way to do, well, anything.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Overall' date=' the thread hasn't been people complaining about the magic element. Its been a back and fourth betweem those that don't like it first explaining, then defending their reasons for not liking it And proponents of the magic sfx apparently feeling either insulted or bound and determined to "prove" that the other side should like it.[/quote']

 

Which is a little more frustrating for me because the topic's one that I find interesting, and the posts that have gotten away from the bones of contention in this thread have been interesting.

 

Still, best not to get too worried about it. One can no more command the Internet than command the stormy seas. Unless you're Interneto Inferno (Master of Flames) and his archfoe, the Webmaster.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Overall' date=' the thread hasn't been people complaining about the magic element. Its been a back and fourth betweem those that don't like it first explaining, then defending their reasons for not liking it And proponents of the magic sfx apparently feeling either insulted or bound and determined to "prove" that the other side should like it.[/quote']

 

Whether you like something is up to you.

 

When, however, you base your reasons for disliking something on a a _falsity_, it would be wrong to NOT correct you.

 

If I said I disliked broccoli because it's that horrible white colour, you would be justified in pointing out that that is probably cauliflower I'm referring to. It would indeed be a good thing for you to point out.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Whether you like something is up to you.

 

When, however, you base your reasons for disliking something on a a _falsity_, it would be wrong to NOT correct you.

 

If I said I disliked broccoli because it's that horrible white colour, you would be justified in pointing out that that is probably cauliflower I'm referring to. It would indeed be a good thing for you to point out.

 

Hm, not that I have seen, but we'll leave it at that.

[KawangaKid]

Retcon the CU

 

Alternative retcons include inserting the closest DC / Marvel characters into the CU timeline and have them replace the equivalent characters found there.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Alternative retcons include inserting the closest DC / Marvel characters into the CU timeline and have them replace the equivalent characters found there.

 

Aways a fun one. One of my favorite retcons is to Wold-Newton up the CU. Add in the DC/Marvel characters to the CU timeline (tweaking origins as little as possible), and then let them age normally from the point where the character actually appeared in the pulps or comics. I also merge characters, the idea being one hero or villain whose exploits were reported under multiple names. So, the original Gladiator and Superman are merged, becoming one leaping brick who first came to public attention in WWI, changed his identity, and then fought for his country again in WWII, continuing to adventure in America until the 1960s. Sub-Mariner and Aquaman are clearly the same man; same for Green Arrow and Hawkeye. Some characters have a clear link; the Banner clan is a branch of the Jeckyl family (by way of Hyde), while Bruce Wayne was the illegitimate son and one-time apprentice of a man who used the cover identity of Lamont Cranston. Sometimes the current Champions tribute characters get added to the mix (the Harmon family is a branch of both the Wayne and Stark family trees, while the poor sap who became Grond is the son of a wandering David Bruce Banner).

 

This twists the CU into a completely different shape, but it's a fun shape.

[Susano]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Aways a fun one. One of my favorite retcons is to Wold-Newton up the CU. Add in the DC/Marvel characters to the CU timeline (tweaking origins as little as possible), and then let them age normally from the point where the character actually appeared in the pulps or comics. I also merge characters, the idea being one hero or villain whose exploits were reported under multiple names. So, the original Gladiator and Superman are merged, becoming one leaping brick who first came to public attention in WWI, changed his identity, and then fought for his country again in WWII, continuing to adventure in America until the 1960s. Sub-Mariner and Aquaman are clearly the same man; same for Green Arrow and Hawkeye. Some characters have a clear link; the Banner clan is a branch of the Jeckyl family (by way of Hyde), while Bruce Wayne was the illegitimate son and one-time apprentice of a man who used the cover identity of Lamont Cranston. Sometimes the current Champions tribute characters get added to the mix (the Harmon family is a branch of both the Wayne and Stark family trees, while the poor sap who became Grond is the son of a wandering David Bruce Banner).

 

This twists the CU into a completely different shape, but it's a fun shape.

 

Wow... now that is a heck of a ride!

 

Is this a current game or just an exercise in world building?

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Wow... now that is a heck of a ride!

 

Is this a current game or just an exercise in world building?

 

It's my current default campaign back-story. I keep meaning to get it posted to my web site. The idea is to integrate fantastic fiction (pulp, comics, some sci-fi and some TV) in such a way as to create a believable world for Superheroes. The CU elements are there to make it easier to use Hero products with minimal conversion and also to allow new players to feel comfortable with the world.

 

The mergers are often very natural. Fictional takes on the OSS (real world WWII precurser of the CIA), CURE (from the Destroyer novels), the OSI (Oscar Goldman's organization) and PRIMUS all serve similar story functions. Merging them gives you an organizarion that started employing and attempting to create metahumans in WWII (When the OSS coordinated the war time efforts of heroes like the Invaders and the JSA), recruited an old Korean to train a super-assassin for black ops in the late 60s, employed bionic agents in the 70s and early 80s, and used that bionic technology along with the old Super-Soldier research to create Silver Avengers from the late 80s until today. Even characters like TV's Man from Atlantis, Invisible Man (both versions), and Greatest American Hero fit in as agents for the OSI. Diana Prince worked for them from 1941 until 1982, when she resigned and then vanished.

 

I think it helps that the blueprint for this kind of world is already present in most sci-fi fans collective unconscious.

[Savinien]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I've always been awed by Oddhat's Wold-Newtonian-Fu.

 

You go, boy.

[Susano]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

It's my current default campaign back-story. I keep meaning to get it posted to my web site. The idea is to integrate fantastic fiction (pulp, comics, some sci-fi and some TV) in such a way as to create a believable world for Superheroes. The CU elements are there to make it easier to use Hero products with minimal conversion and also to allow new players to feel comfortable with the world.

 

The mergers are often very natural. Fictional takes on the OSS (real world WWII precurser of the CIA), CURE (from the Destroyer novels), the OSI (Oscar Goldman's organization) and PRIMUS all serve similar story functions. Merging them gives you an organizarion that started employing and attempting to create metahumans in WWII (When the OSS coordinated the war time efforts of heroes like the Invaders and the JSA), recruited an old Korean to train a super-assassin for black ops in the late 60s, employed bionic agents in the 70s and early 80s, and used that bionic technology along with the old Super-Soldier research to create Silver Avengers from the late 80s until today. Even characters like TV's Man from Atlantis, Invisible Man (both versions), and Greatest American Hero fit in as agents for the OSI. Diana Prince worked for them from 1941 until 1982, when she resigned and then vanished.

 

I think it helps that the blueprint for this kind of world is already present in most sci-fi fans collective unconscious.

 

I see. Well done and very, very cool.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I've always found that a sense of Legacy is a good thing in a campaign. As I've stated before, I'd love to see a CU built on what's come before it ... That way you can have your Superman, Batman, Captain America clones and still retain some of the history that's gone on before with Champions books

[Peregrine]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I've always been awed by Oddhat's Wold-Newtonian-Fu.

 

You go, boy.

 

Ah, Wold-Newton... gotta love it.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I understand and appreciate analysis. But when a problem's as simple as making a two-second change that boils down to "Not in my campaign" *and* it really doesn't negate the rest of the setting' date=' the complaining gets a little annoying when it goes on this long,[/quote']

Actually, I was, um agreeing with you. This thread actually degenerated from its original purpose and I was uhm...sarcastically chastising you to show my agreement.

 

...

I need to work on it apparently.

 

Sorry Scott.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Actually, I was, um agreeing with you. This thread actually degenerated from its original purpose and I was uhm...sarcastically chastising you to show my agreement.

 

...

I need to work on it apparently.

 

Sorry Scott.

 

Nah. I just need to get more sleep. :-)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

It's my current default campaign back-story. I keep meaning to get it posted to my web site. The idea is to integrate fantastic fiction (pulp, comics, some sci-fi and some TV) in such a way as to create a believable world for Superheroes. The CU elements are there to make it easier to use Hero products with minimal conversion and also to allow new players to feel comfortable with the world.

 

The mergers are often very natural. Fictional takes on the OSS (real world WWII precurser of the CIA), CURE (from the Destroyer novels), the OSI (Oscar Goldman's organization) and PRIMUS all serve similar story functions. Merging them gives you an organizarion that started employing and attempting to create metahumans in WWII (When the OSS coordinated the war time efforts of heroes like the Invaders and the JSA), recruited an old Korean to train a super-assassin for black ops in the late 60s, employed bionic agents in the 70s and early 80s, and used that bionic technology along with the old Super-Soldier research to create Silver Avengers from the late 80s until today. Even characters like TV's Man from Atlantis, Invisible Man (both versions), and Greatest American Hero fit in as agents for the OSI. Diana Prince worked for them from 1941 until 1982, when she resigned and then vanished.

 

I think it helps that the blueprint for this kind of world is already present in most sci-fi fans collective unconscious.

Dude, that oddhat of yours keeps some very kickass ideas in store.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Nah. I just need to get more sleep. :-)

*whew*