Worst comic book superfight ever

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I've always ruled, based on the Silver Age portrayals, that Superman has no Mental Defense or Power Defense. He was constanty being fooled by mental illusions, transformed, having his powers drained, etc. However, he fought magical foes (Captain Marvel) and monsters all the time and never ended up gutted.

 

If a vampire could bite him, I'd say that the fangs were defined as a BODY Transfer and possibly a linked Transformation Attack rather than a straight KA. Or, maybe, the writer was crap.

 

The current version of Supes seems to hav no Resistant Def and no Damage Reduction vs Magic.

 

We're just lucky he's not a gay black woman with AIDS.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I see ChuckG's comments' date=' I think we part company perhaps here in interpreting Busiek's comments. Thor's magical lightning bypasses normal defenses, I believe Busiek's saying and that is also what I say. Or, to put it another way, where ChuckG says Superman has PD "not versus magic", I think the point is that all but magical characters have all or most of their PD "not versus magic". Including Hulk.[/quote']

This would seem to imply that Thor can easily take down all but his magical enemies simply by using lightning. But the comics don't bear that out.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think what he meant was 'since most of Supes' PD is bought 'not vs. magic and stuff'' date=' Supes' total PD vs. magic is down around the normal human level of PD'.[/quote']

Sure, but isn't the implication that most supers would have it this way? And is there any reason Hulk would be different?

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This would seem to imply that Thor can easily take down all but his magical enemies simply by using lightning. But the comics don't bear that out.

Or the baseline for magical resistance isn't 0 typically, for anyone, necessarily. Obviously some variance per character, with Superman on the low (normal) end. As per my other question, has Hulk portrayed any special resistance to magical stuff? I dunno.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sure' date=' but isn't the implication that most supers would have it this way?[/quote']

 

Vs. the magic stuff that (gamespeak alert) would go against Power Defense and Mental Defense? Well, the default level on both of those for normal humans and most supers is 'zero', yah.

 

Supes, OTOH, loses a chunk of his PD and ED vs. many Normal and Killing attacks w/ magical special effects as well.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Vs. the magic stuff that (gamespeak alert) would go against Power Defense and Mental Defense? Well, the default level on both of those for normal humans and most supers is 'zero', yah.

 

Supes, OTOH, loses a chunk of his PD and ED vs. many Normal and Killing attacks w/ magical special effects as well.

That latter sentence I PERSONALLY agree with but I read Busiek to say not so.

 

On another note, I was reminded by McCoy about Hulk seeing Dr. Strange, which to me would indicate probably some magical resistance to a degree.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Or the baseline for magical resistance isn't 0 typically' date=' for anyone, necessarily. Obviously some variance per character, with Superman on the low (normal) end. As per my other question, has Hulk portrayed any special resistance to magical stuff? I dunno.[/quote']

Not as such, that I know of. But he seems just as resistant to magical damage as he is to non-magical damage, in my (not especially extensive) reading. Note that I'm talking about raw damage - when it comes to things like (especially) mind control, Hulk's a total sap. (Come to think of it, pretty much all heroes get mind controlled at some point in their careers. But the Hulk in particular is a psychic chump.)

 

However at least one writer seems to agree with your viewpoint. (Check out the rest of that site, btw... it's a hoot! By that fan's reckoning, the Hulk holds a 5-2 advantage over Thor in the history of their clashes.)

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Not as such, that I know of. But he seems just as resistant to magical damage as he is to non-magical damage, in my (not especially extensive) reading. Note that I'm talking about raw damage - when it comes to things like (especially) mind control, Hulk's a total sap. (Come to think of it, pretty much all heroes get mind controlled at some point in their careers. But the Hulk in particular is a psychic chump.)

 

However at least one writer seems to agree with your viewpoint. (Check out the rest of that site, btw... it's a hoot! By that fan's reckoning, the Hulk holds a 5-2 advantage over Thor in the history of their clashes.)

If as resistant about magical stuff, to me, it would seem he has special magical resistance, then, above the norm, much as his other defenses are. Of course YMMV. As you say, low/0 MD.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No' date=' I think you've got it way too early. I'm dead certain he first pops the claws with no costume in the Hellfire Club arc.[/quote']

First time I saw it was in the Savage Land arc, after they wscaped from Magneto's volcano lair.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

First time I saw it was in the Savage Land arc' date=' after they wscaped from Magneto's volcano lair.[/quote'] If you guys keep this up I'll be motivated to drag out the issues.

 

I've got GSX-Men #1, and #s 95 through the low 200s.

 

No #94 though.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you guys keep this up I'll be motivated to drag out the issues.

 

I've got GSX-Men #1, and #s 95 through the low 200s.

 

No #94 though.

Try 98-99, I'm sure it was before 100.

[mirage]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Teen Titans cartoon is more cartoony from what I've seen, with less serious results from things like explosions and less attention paid to physics. JLU Batman has no chance.

 

However, Bugs Bunny would crush Robin.

 

I wanna see Bugs Bunny vs Beast Boy.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Beast vs Blob, Ultimate X-Men #23-25.

 

SPOILERS

 

Not a physical fight, one of wits. Now, it looks as if Ultimate Blob is a fair bit smarter than the normal version. But still, he gets Beast to believe that he's a super-model with a PhD in 'infrared astronomy', over an internet chat program. Gets Beast so hot for him that he a) admits that Magneto is alive and being held by Xavier, and agrees to meet 'Naomi', right after that confession. He has no notion that this might be something other than it seems, so that he mentions to the others that he has a meeting in the city, but nothing else.

 

Now, I can accept that Blob's somewhart articulate here. But unless he actually HAS a PhD in infrared astronomy, I don't think he'd be able to withstand Beast's scrutiny. I can also accept that Beast is lovesick (just got dumped by Storm), and is more willing to believe outlandish stories, as long as someone's interested in him. But... but... it's just stupid!

 

Beast ain't THAT dumb. It's easy to get taken in. But seriously, I don't believe that Blob could really have fooled him, if not about the personality thing, then about the science thing. Are we really to believe that Beast never doubted Naomi's education?

 

Honestly, I thought Beast was stringing him along, trying to get information out of him. BUt then he goes to the meeting, no protection, and gets beat up. He didn't suspect a thing.

 

Well, damn.

 

So, to tie this tenuously into the thread: the super-fight at the end, with Beast getting pounded by the Brotherhood, is not the problem. The fact that the fight happend AT ALL, that's why I think it's one of the worst superfights ever!

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sure' date=' but isn't the implication that most supers would have it this way? [b']And is there any reason Hulk would be different?[/b]

EDIT: Disregard the following, it has already been covered. I should have read the entire thread before responding in the future.

 

I realize this question was most likely rhetorical, but in this case yes, the Hulk would be different. It has been shown that Hulk's powers also extend into what could be considered mystical territory. He can see when Dr. Strange is astrally projecting near him, even being able to speak with him in this state, for example.

 

I'm not saying that all of Hulk's powers have a mystical aspect, but that the Hulk himself has mystical powers (where Superman does not)

 

TB

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Beast vs Blob, Ultimate X-Men #23-25.

 

SPOILERS

 

Not a physical fight, one of wits. Now, it looks as if Ultimate Blob is a fair bit smarter than the normal version. But still, he gets Beast to believe that he's a super-model with a PhD in 'infrared astronomy', over an internet chat program. Gets Beast so hot for him that he a) admits that Magneto is alive and being held by Xavier, and agrees to meet 'Naomi', right after that confession. He has no notion that this might be something other than it seems, so that he mentions to the others that he has a meeting in the city, but nothing else.

 

Now, I can accept that Blob's somewhart articulate here. But unless he actually HAS a PhD in infrared astronomy, I don't think he'd be able to withstand Beast's scrutiny. I can also accept that Beast is lovesick (just got dumped by Storm), and is more willing to believe outlandish stories, as long as someone's interested in him. But... but... it's just stupid!

 

Beast ain't THAT dumb. It's easy to get taken in. But seriously, I don't believe that Blob could really have fooled him, if not about the personality thing, then about the science thing. Are we really to believe that Beast never doubted Naomi's education?

 

Honestly, I thought Beast was stringing him along, trying to get information out of him. BUt then he goes to the meeting, no protection, and gets beat up. He didn't suspect a thing.

 

Well, damn.

 

So, to tie this tenuously into the thread: the super-fight at the end, with Beast getting pounded by the Brotherhood, is not the problem. The fact that the fight happend AT ALL, that's why I think it's one of the worst superfights ever!

 

 

Jeez, how bad can it get? Who wrote that one? Sounds like Millar in one of his "parody" moods.

 

Of course Ellis, who I normally like, wrote the X-Men as morons is Ultimate Galactus 1: Nightmare. Disapointing, as I'd been looking forward to that.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Jeez, how bad can it get? Who wrote that one? Sounds like Millar in one of his "parody" moods.

 

Of course Ellis, who I normally like, wrote the X-Men as morons is Ultimate Galactus 1: Nightmare. Disapointing, as I'd been looking forward to that.

It was Millar.

 

And yeah, Ellis wasn't too hot on the X-Men. I liked the story, thought it was pretty cool, but the X-Men were kinda chumped. ;

 

Ellis certainly isn't above being vindictive against characters he's got something against.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It was Millar.

 

No surprise then. Millar thinks he's a satirist. Or, maybe more specifically, he thinks he's a good satirist.

 

And yeah, Ellis wasn't too hot on the X-Men. I liked the story, thought it was pretty cool, but the X-Men were kinda chumped. ;

 

Ellis certainly isn't above being vindictive against characters he's got something against.

 

True on both counts. However, when he's writing about characters he cares about, Ellis can be a hell of a story teller.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re: Warren Ellis

 

Here are my observations about the guy having read a pretty good amount of his early stuff and from frequenting his message board back in the day.

 

He hates writing superheroes and/or licensed characters (on his website, he used to say as much on a daily basis). However he writes superhero titles because that's where the money is. He'll usually only stay on a supers title for one arc (3-4 issues) and then move on. If on a superhero title, he'll concentrate on the sci-fi aspects while marginalizing the super hero elements (it's my understanding that he did this on Ultimate Fantastic Four and Iron Man). Also, I've found his characters' personalities to be recycled from earlier work.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re: Warren Ellis

 

Here are my observations about the guy having read a pretty good amount of his early stuff and from frequenting his message board back in the day.

 

He hates writing superheroes and/or licensed characters (on his website, he used to say as much on a daily basis). However he writes superhero titles because that's where the money is. He'll usually only stay on a supers title for one arc (3-4 issues) and then move on. If on a superhero title, he'll concentrate on the sci-fi aspects while marginalizing the super hero elements (it's my understanding that he did this on Ultimate Fantastic Four and Iron Man). Also, I've found his characters' personalities to be recycled from earlier work.

 

For my part, I enjoyed his work on Stormwatch and the Authority, and loved Planetary. I read his part of the Ultimate Fantastic Four, and it was OK. I can see the hatred for licensed characters (an author is very limited as far as what he can do with a character not his own); I don't see the hatred of Superheroes as such coming through in the parts of his work I've read.

 

Millar, on the other hand, drips contempt for his audience.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For my part, I enjoyed his work on Stormwatch and the Authority, and loved Planetary. I read his part of the Ultimate Fantastic Four, and it was OK. I can see the hatred for licensed characters (an author is very limited as far as what he can do with a character not his own); I don't see the hatred of Superheroes as such coming through in the parts of his work I've read.

 

Millar, on the other hand, drips contempt for his audience.

And I REALLY loved his Excalibur stuff. He looks back on it and thinks it's his worst work ever... me, I loved it. I liked Pete Wisdom, I didn't mind the continuity goofs (hey, he was badly informed by other writers), and I liked what he did with the characters. Particularly Rahne, who went from 'schizo crazy girl' to 'grown up emotionally-mature woman' under his writing. Great stuff. (Although someone apparently forgot to tell later writers this. Ah well.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ummm, I'm sorry, but Peter Wisdom makes me want to set his EXCALIBUR run on fire.

 

Granted, yes, Rahne got a tremendous lift from it.

 

Just... Peter Wisdom... fire... lots of fire...

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I've been trying to think of "worst" comic book superbattles, and I realy can't. I guess I just bury thos ememories and remember the great ones, fortunately.

 

I'd have to go back and reread it, but as I recall there was a fairly crappy fight in the 2nd Dark Knight Returns series, but that was, sadly, a troubled affair all around. And I love Miller, otherwise.

[massey]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I have not read this entire thread, but I would like to chip in.

 

I have always thought Superman's magic vulnerability SHOULD be (not that it is--it's never been consistent enough to properly gauge) that he is no more resistant to magic than a normal creature that can shrug off nuclear bombs and exploding stars. In other words, his Power Defense has the "not vs magic" limitation.

 

Re: Spider-Man vs Firelord. I have not read this comic, but I will give my opinion anyway. It seems possible that Spider-Man was able to seriously annoy Firelord. I believe all sides have agreed to this. It has been said that Firelord once set a doctor on fire for daring to ask him to leave a hospital. Firelord may qualify for an "enraged" disadvantage. At least, his psychological limitations indicate that he takes himself quite seriously and tends to respond to annoyances with violence. It was also said that Firelord was angry enough with Spider-Man that he threatened to blow up the Earth.

 

So, what happened? There seems to be an answer. Firelord, enraged by Spider-Man (if not the Champions definition of enraged, at least the common usage of it is appropriate), begins shooting at him. He continually misses due to Spider-Man's combat value advantage. Firelord will not resort to his area effect attacks, because if he destroys the Earth, there will be no pizza for Firelord. He is very angry, however, and spends all of his energy blasting at Spider-Man. I think he may have run out of Endurance, but continued attacking, burning Stun in place of End so that he could shoot the cursed web-crawler. Eventually Firelord knocks himself out, trying to kill Spider-Man, while not blowing up the only place in the universe one can get a good deep-dish pizza. Spider-Man's punches? Merely an annoyance, something to ensure that Firelord's self-restraint goes out the window.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Coming in very late here but to answer the original question, the worst super-fight ever for me was Wolverine versus Lobo in DC versus Marvel. I blame this whole mess on DC. How they could offer Lobo in a popularity contest against Wolverine is beyond me? It wasn't bad enough that he could not win this contest, they had to pit him against a character nowhere near his power level. Obviously, there was no way to write this fight in a believable way but they even fail to make it entertaining or fun.

 

Bad, bad, bad...

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I have not read this entire thread, but I would like to chip in.

 

I have always thought Superman's magic vulnerability SHOULD be (not that it is--it's never been consistent enough to properly gauge) that he is no more resistant to magic than a normal creature that can shrug off nuclear bombs and exploding stars. In other words, his Power Defense has the "not vs magic" limitation.

 

Re: Spider-Man vs Firelord. I have not read this comic, but I will give my opinion anyway. It seems possible that Spider-Man was able to seriously annoy Firelord. I believe all sides have agreed to this. It has been said that Firelord once set a doctor on fire for daring to ask him to leave a hospital. Firelord may qualify for an "enraged" disadvantage. At least, his psychological limitations indicate that he takes himself quite seriously and tends to respond to annoyances with violence. It was also said that Firelord was angry enough with Spider-Man that he threatened to blow up the Earth.

 

So, what happened? There seems to be an answer. Firelord, enraged by Spider-Man (if not the Champions definition of enraged, at least the common usage of it is appropriate), begins shooting at him. He continually misses due to Spider-Man's combat value advantage. Firelord will not resort to his area effect attacks, because if he destroys the Earth, there will be no pizza for Firelord. He is very angry, however, and spends all of his energy blasting at Spider-Man. I think he may have run out of Endurance, but continued attacking, burning Stun in place of End so that he could shoot the cursed web-crawler. Eventually Firelord knocks himself out, trying to kill Spider-Man, while not blowing up the only place in the universe one can get a good deep-dish pizza. Spider-Man's punches? Merely an annoyance, something to ensure that Firelord's self-restraint goes out the window.

Re Superman and Power Defense: I believe Superman has very little PowD for a super. He seems to be susceptible to "strange" drain rays and so on, from my memory of even Silver Age Superman. It seems many of Luthor's more esoteric attacks, in any of the older comics back when I was reading them, tended to affect Superman to one degree or another of serious magnitude.

 

Which, in HERO terms, is probably the best explanation, really. His PD/ED isn't a problem versus magic that manifests as pure physical force, but anything that's against PowDef he's a bit nerfed on compared to many other supers (who, of course, lack his many other super-abilities).